I'm leaning more toward a cruiser or a touring bike, but I'm still open on the "sport" end.

Buell looks pretty good.  Any thoughts on them or should I seek a different brand?

Note: Harley and Indians are great but out of my price range.  

EDITED TO ADD: Yes, I am a newbie.  The ability to fit two people is a plus.  I am also thinking of doing some longer rides here and there.  

Thanks,

Mike

buell is made by harley. So it sucks in my opinion. Get japanese. Cheaper and more reliable.


[waiting for the harley defenders...]

Quoted: I'm leaning more toward a cruiser or a touring bike, but I'm still open on the "sport" end. Buell looks pretty good.  Any thoughts on them or should I seek a different brand? Note: Harley and Indians are great but out of my price range.   Thanks, Mike

I'd go with a Honda VFR800.




More comfy than the Buell
Faster than the Buell
Handles better than the Buell
Brakes better than the Buell
IMO looks better than the Buell
More longevity than the Buell


the list goes on and on.......

Quoted: Quoted: I'm leaning more toward a cruiser or a touring bike, but I'm still open on the "sport" end. Buell looks pretty good.  Any thoughts on them or should I seek a different brand? Note: Harley and Indians are great but out of my price range.   Thanks, Mike I'd go with a Honda VFR800. www.cs.wisc.edu/~john/vfr/specs/pics/99-vfr800-corbin-hiright.jpg More comfy than the Buell Faster than the Buell Handles better than the Buell Brakes better than the Buell IMO looks better than the Buell More longevity than the Buell the list goes on and on.......

You forgot "cheaper than a Buell".

The Honda CBR600f3 is a great bike.

My Mom (avid rider) bought a buell, and hated it, no real problems, just didn't suit her very well.

Sold it and bought a Honda, never looked back.

Besides There was never a time on my f3 that I wished it would've been faster.

Her and my step father both have the new cruisers from honda, (not the Goldwing, the TT1000 something or another) and they love them. put 1500 miles on them in the first couple of months, no problems.

If you like the looks and styling of Buell bikes I'd also look at offerings by Ducati and Triumph.


I'm a big fan of euro sport bikes, I believe they offer a level of style that Japanese bikes have yet to match.

Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?  

Buell is made by the same folks who bring you the Dynawidefatsochromeplateddentisthavingamidlifecrisisglide FXTSITYSOVCY Series of chrome plated garage Buddahs.

Get something Japanese. Euro bikes are sexy (the Speed Triple is nice, but the MV Augusta F4 is sex on wheels) but require more upkeep than a rich girl.



GT

Not a fan of the Harleys....

I forgot to mention in my previos post.

The Buell puts down ALOT of torque, which is nice.

The Honda Jap bike will be cheaper to buy and in the long run.

I have a Jap sport bike and other than oil changes, I havent TOUCHED anything in 10K miles.  I haven't even checked the valve clearance!!  Try that with the Buell

I think the bottom line is if you plan on riding it alot.  More than 10Kmiles, get the Honda Jap bike.

1K miles a year, than entertain the Buell

Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?

Actually- yes-- I am a complete novice to this.

Thanks,

Mike

Quoted: If you like the looks and styling of Buell bikes I'd also look at offerings by$$$ Ducati $$$ and Triumph. I'm a big fan of euro sport bikes, I believe they offer a level of style that Japanese bikes have yet to match.

just had to.

Buell any good?

No.

Quoted: Quoted: If you like the looks and styling of Buell bikes I'd also look at offerings by$$$ Ducati $$$ and Triumph. I'm a big fan of euro sport bikes, I believe they offer a level of style that Japanese bikes have yet to match. just had to.

Pretty much. Although the Monster can be had for a decent price, and the word on the Ducati forums is that its not as maintence intensive as the rest of the line.

A friend of mine recently got a 2005 Speed Triple 1050, and its one sexy pair of wheels.

You can get a decent price on a euro bike, just have to look for it.

$$$ Ducati $$$

Mine hasn't been too bad to maintain.

Quoted: .......and the word on the Ducati forums is that its not as maintence intensive as the rest of the line.

I have a Ducati.

The probelm with the Duc is that it has a belt driven valve-train as opposed to the chain or gear driven Jap counterparts.  

Buell's are good bikes but if you plan on long trips and 2up riding I would look elsewhere.  People may say that Buells are slow but the only place it will be out run is on the highway going over 120 mph.  I've seen plenty of people riding the latest and greatest most powerful bike there is only to have there a$$ handed to them by a more experienced rider on a slower, older bike.  Don't fall into the numbers hype.  I currently ride a 929RR and spent two years on a 1200 Sportster before that.  In all the Sportster is almost as fast my "super bike".  Remeber that when riding around town/highway there are potholes, sand, tar snakes, chunks of tar/concrete/rocks, traffic and a ton of other obstacles that keep you from using the full potential of any bike.  

Start small and have fun.

WTF is a tar snake?
I'm thinking about getting a bike and would like to know.

I know a guy from the Harley dearship...they hate Buells, they either run or they are the shit. I have a Honda VTX 1300, it is my 3rd Honda....they run forever

Mine has a Buell factory race engine, and I'm happy with it.

I've heard that the Buell has a rough riding engine due to the way it's made.  Is that true?

Quoted: buell is made by harley. So it sucks in my opinion. Get japanese. Cheaper and more reliable. [waiting for the harley defenders...]

Trade the jap bike in and see what it's worth

Quoted: I've heard that the Buell has a rough riding engine due to the way it's made.  Is that true?

In my case (bike pictured above) the answer is yes, as it's mounted directly to the frame, without the benefit of a rubber mount.

Even rubber mounted, they do vibrate noticeably. Alot of V-Twins do.

Quoted: Trade the jap bike in and see what it's worth

More than a Buell, I'd bet.

After all these years, and as stone simple as the old air cooled V twin is, Harley still can't build a reliable engine.  So the question is...do you want to be a motorcycle owner, or a motorcycle rider?

Quoted: WTF is a tar snake? I'm thinking about getting a bike and would like to know.

Tar snakes are those strips of melted rubber they put all over the streets to cover up cracks in the road after the winter.  Depending on weather conditions they can bve slippery or sticky.  The only time they really affect you when riding is when you are pretending to be Joe Rocket on public roads.

2006 Kawasaki 650 Ninja

Kawasaki Introduces New Twin-cylinder Sportbike The 2006 Ninja 650R
Sep 02, 2005

From a press release issued by Kawasaki Motors Corp. U.S.A.:

KAWASAKI’S NINJA® 650R BREAKS NEW GROUND WITH BROAD APPEAL AND INNOVATIVE DESIGN

Unique look and feel grew from specific design team objectives seeking to blend attractiveness with power.

Look at Kawasaki’s all new NINJA® 650R sportbike and the first impression is one of pure design appreciation. Look a little longer and many of the innovative engine and chassis elements begin to come into play. But the entire package doesn’t truly project its intended engineering outcome until the motorcycle is viewed with a rider seemingly melded into its unique posture.

Because the 650R was meant to have broad rider appeal, Kawasaki’s development team began its task with the rider—not the motorcycle. Focusing on all kinds of riders, and all kinds of riding, Kawasaki carefully studied the interface between human and machine. Riding positions were studied to discover which instilled the most confidence.

Narrowing the distance between foot pegs and striving for a lower seat height and low effort controls all played into the design efforts. Ultimately, this exceptionally well-proportioned NINJA 650R represents a genre of motorcycling new to Kawasaki—one that finds itself at home with both novices and experienced riders, and one that will be seen equally in daily midtown commuting situations as well as week-end highway getaways.

A combination of versatility, performance and style, this motorcycle knows no boundaries in terms of rider appeal.

It will be a first-time purchase for some, a second or third motorcycle for others, and for all, it will be fun. Powered by a compact two-cylinder engine mounted in a sleek, lightweight chassis, this extremely maneuverable model will earn its rank as one of the most rider friendly units in today’s marketplace. The very compact liquid-cooled, DOHC, 8-valve 649cc Parallel Twin with fuel injection delivers a smooth responsiveness that is tuned for rider-friendly power characteristics—especially in the low and medium rpm ranges that will inspire confidence in new motorcyclists. Its excellent mid-range characteristics will make the 650R a natural for medium speed commuting environments.

And slipping in and out of traffic will be a cinch for this new entry, as its lightweight trellis frame and laydown shock also contribute to its overall compactness.

While the powerplant on this new NINJA is compact, it is anything but minimal in its output. Just gauge the 650R’s roll-on response when making a highway pass and any concerns in that area quickly subside. The engineers called on their vast experience building NINJA supersport machines to develop a motorcycle possessing performance characteristics that will be a match for anything currently available in the middleweight arena, including those with larger displacement.

Some of the engine’s characteristics:

o Triangular layout of the crankshaft and transmission shafts make the engine very short, front-to-back

o The transmission’s input shaft, output shaft, and change drum are contained in a cassette-style package that both works for the 650R’s compact layout, and facilitates transmission maintenance

o Engine height is reduced through the use of a semi-dry sump design

o This new Kawasaki has a plated, linerless aluminum cylinder which is lightweight; its narrow cylinder pitch reduces engine width

o Under-engine muffler improves mass centralization and lowers the 650R center of gravity

Some of the chassis design elements:

o Compact engine design allows use of a slim, minimalist frame, which results in a design that is narrow at the knees and feet

o Light and nimble handling characteristics are one of the benefits of the extremely short wheelbase of this motorcycle

o A long swingarm is used, so both rear suspension and handling are improved

o Engineers used 3-D analysis to achieve the ideal stiffness balance for the frame, which contributes greatly to its handling characteristics

o Frame construction is of high-tensile steel, rivaling the lightness of aluminum frames

o The layout of the offset single-shock rear suspension allows the battery to be located next to the shock rather than beneath it—making for a slim design and lower seat height

Bringing the motorcycle to a stop is handled by triple petal disc brakes that look as good as they perform. And the attractive six-spoke supersport-style wheels give the 650R a “light” look while reducing unsprung weight. This new entry sports a very aggressive headlight design, an aerodynamic windscreen and full fairing, and front turn signals integrated into the faring. The flowing bodywork includes a slim tail cowl with flush-surface tail lamp lens giving the new NINJA 650R a slim, agile appearance from the rear. Also contributing to the slim design appearance is a two-tone seat and a sculpted fuel tank. Instrumentation abounds with this multi-purpose motorcycle. A compact step-motor speedometer features an LCD display with digital readouts for odometer, twin tripmeter, and clock as well as an LED water temperature warning lamp.

Few will look at or ride Kawasaki’s NINJA 650R and fail to come away impressed. Both from a design and a performance benchmark, the team responsible for this new motorcycle has accomplished their stated goal—creating a new category for Kawasaki where every rider, new, old, male, female, experienced or novice—can find a reason to park this one in the garage.

If you are a noob, get something midsized that your comfortable with.  600 -750. Forget all that HP, and bent over low handlebar / high foot peg hype.  You don't need it and will prolee get ya in trouble. I have seen it many many times. Perhaps a mid sized cruzer. Low to the ground. Easy to balance. Good midrange power. Reasonably comfortable. Two up riding no problem.

I just recently returned to riding. The bike that brought me back? KLR 650.  I've ridden and raced since 1971 and this thing is more fun than a bus load of drunken comedians.

____________________________________

"Is it safe?"

If your're a newbie, don't want to fork over money and don't know how to ride, go find a Honda or something thats a Cruiser Harley Clone.  


You have to really want a Harley to want a Harley.  Personally, I see more Harleys out being ridden than I do Jap bikes.   If you are a newbie however, then its not worth the cost to buy one and find you don't like to ride.  You could probably get your money out of it, I know the paper is always full of barely rode Harleys that go for damn good money and go pretty fast.


Im stuck with my little dual sport for now... 85 miles to a tank  Good thing its got a 1 gallon tank



If I get a cruiser, because Im ass dirty poor, it would probably be a Jap Cruiser...

suzuki FA50  make sure its pink

Kinda amazing how the new 650 Ninja looks alot like a Buell XB9R or XB12R (Firebolt) model of bikes......

As has been said, buy somethng used and something you think you would comfortable on.  Also learn how to work on it.  No sense going into debt for something you may not like later.
I started on an old Honda 360, rebuilt it from wheel to wheel, and rode it everywhere until it was stolen.  Then I moved up to a Honda 750 Custom and decided that I liked cruisers, and eventually bought my Harley (that was over 13 years ago) and still ride almost every day.
The only opinion that counts is your own.  Everything else is just that... someone's opinion.

Quoted: Buell's are good bikes but if you plan on long trips and 2up riding I would look elsewhere.  People may say that Buells are slow but the only place it will be out run is on the highway going over 120 mph.  I've seen plenty of people riding the latest and greatest most powerful bike there is only to have there a$$ handed to them by a more experienced rider on a slower, older bike.  Don't fall into the numbers hype.  I currently ride a 929RR and spent two years on a 1200 Sportster before that.  In all the Sportster is almost as fast my "super bike".   Remeber that when riding around town/highway there are potholes, sand, tar snakes, chunks of tar/concrete/rocks, traffic and a ton of other obstacles that keep you from using the full potential of any bike.   Start small and have fun.

What are you smoking... CRACK?

NO WAY IN HELL will a sportster, or anythign with that 1200 motor bear a 929

I'd be surprised if that 1200 could even keep up with my ZX600 I had back in 93'

Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?

NOT...

The Buell engine is BASED on the Sportster engine/tranny in a single unit.

The sportster 1200 is about 55 to 60 HP.  A Buell XB9,  989 cc puts out about 92 HP and about 82 ft lbs of torque, add a $600.00 race kit and it goes up to about 100+ hp.  The XB12, 1203 cc puts out about 103 HP and 84 ft lbs of torque.

The Buell engine is a long way from a Sportster engine!  The Buell will lose the straight line runs against the 600 cc and liter class jap bikes, however... get in the curves... and the Buell will out handle most jap sport bikes.  

What do you want?  Straight line speed?  Then get a jap bike...   You want a bike that handles like a real race bike in the turns... Get the Buell.  Demo ride a Buell if that is what you want for twisties... and you will see why it has a loyal following.  They are pretty low maint... and you want to get into a fight... tell a Buell guy he rides a Harley... or tell a Harley guy the Buell is also a Harley.

Buell is 98% owned by Harley, but uses separate facilities for construction.  Who owns the other 2% of Buell?  Erik Buell, who started all this and first used engines bought from Harley and later sold 49% to Harley, then later sold another 49% to Harley.  Buell is the Redheaded step child of Harley.  

I ride a 2003 XB9S Lightning.  ZERO maint problems... and it ain't no friggin Harley!!!

What do you want your sport bike to do?  Then pick from there.

I'm going to disagree with the Buell sucks crowd.  I took a pretty long test ride on one and I thought it was great.  In particular the things I likes about it were the torque of the motor, and the excellent suspension.  I was mainly riding moutain roads with (way) less than perfect pavement and the motor made exiting corners a breeze.  No desparate stabs at the shifter because I left it in too high a gear.    The suspension was really nice, the bike felt solid and held it's line through corners even over really rough pavement.

I found it very nimble and very sporty.

It's getting to the point around here that if something is not Japanese at least 75 people claim it sucks.

I wonder when this belief will spread to firearms as well.

Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?

Just what does that count for?  It doesn't do anything as well as the vast majority of other bikes, be they Jap or Euro, so just what does being a Hardly Ableson count for?

... Give me a call this week Mike, I'll introduce you to someone completely unbiased when it comes to scooters. He can "fit" you to a bike that meets your requirements

Quoted: Quoted: buell is made by harley. So it sucks in my opinion. Get japanese. Cheaper and more reliable. [waiting for the harley defenders...] Trade the jap bike in and see what it's worth

I don't buy something for how well it holds it's value because when I get through with it, it won't be worth much anyway.

How well something runs, handles, and it's maintenance requirements far outweigh the resale.  Of course, I notice that is the only defense ever offered for the Hardlys.

Buell is like a hybrid crossbreed of a bike. Get a real Hog or a real Ricer. IMHO

Quoted: It's getting to the point around here that if something is not Japanese at least 75 people claim it sucks.

There is indeed, a large contingent of Toyota leg-humpers present.

Quoted: It's getting to the point around here that if something is not Japanese at least 75 people claim it sucks.

Maybe there is some truth to that, ya think???????

Harley fucked up by not giving Erik Buell the VR1000 engine and the VR1000 Superbike program.

That being said a stock 600 rice rocket will flat out smoke a Buell everywhere except the tightest corners where the Buell can use it's torque.

Of course a Suzuki 650 with a pipe and suspension work will do the same thing and cost a lot less.

Quoted: Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?   Actually- yes-- I am a complete novice to this. Thanks, Mike

Ok a novice?  Well let me be the first to welcome ya to the wonderful dangerous world of street bikes.   If ya want my honest opinion and you are infact a new rider who wants a crotch rocket lemme suggest this to you.  You may not be able to get decent insurance on a sport bike over 600 cc and more over you most likely dont want or need a bike over 600 ccs as your first street bike.  Tha being said pick yourself out a nice GXSR or CBR 600 and learn how to ride.  Those bikes are PLENTY fast enuff with enuff torque to pucker your A-hole for the first few years of riding.  If you happen to not kill yourself or seriously hurt yourself in the first 2 years then ya can go to a 750 / or 1000.  Get a decent 600 a really GOOD helmet and jacket.  Save the buell for another time.  Incase you're thinking I dont know my ass from my elbow Im 32 years old and have been riding street bikes for the better part of 15 years.  Anyway I hope I helped ya good luck and ride safe.  

Quoted: buell is made by harley. So it sucks in my opinion. Get japanese. Cheaper and more reliable. [waiting for the harley defenders...]

+1000

Quoted: ... Give me a call this week Mike, I'll introduce you to someone completely unbiased when it comes to scooters. He can "fit" you to a bike that meets your requirements

Thank you-- I'll give you a holler at a more decent hour.  

Mike

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?   Actually- yes-- I am a complete novice to this. Thanks, Mike Ok a novice?  Well let me be the first to welcome ya to the wonderful dangerous world of street bikes.   If ya want my honest opinion and you are infact a new rider who wants a crotch rocket lemme suggest this to you.  You may not be able to get decent insurance on a sport bike over 600 cc and more over you most likely dont want or need a bike over 600 ccs as your first street bike.  Tha being said pick yourself out a nice GXSR or CBR 600 and learn how to ride.  Those bikes are PLENTY fast enuff with enuff torque to pucker your A-hole for the first few years of riding.  If you happen to not kill yourself or seriously hurt yourself in the first 2 years then ya can go to a 750 / or 1000.  Get a decent 600 a really GOOD helmet and jacket.  Save the buell for another time.  Incase you're thinking I dont know my ass from my elbow Im 32 years old and have been riding street bikes for the better part of 15 years.  Anyway I hope I helped ya good luck and ride safe.

I'm actually not seeking a "crotch rocket."  My problem is that my needs don't seem to fit in well with a "standard" bike.

I want freeway legal speeds.  Okay, so being able to speed up to 85 (75 is the rural limit in AZ) to pass a vehicle is more like it.  However, speed kills and I've seen what happens when speed meets a heavy object.

Insurable is good.  

I want comfortable, as I intend to do an occasional long distance ride here or there.

Long distance = weekend or more, so the ability to add touring luggage would be nice.

I like cruisers more than crotch rockets; they seem much more comfortable.  However, crotch rockets ARE less expensive.....

Cruise control, highway pegs, and a radio would be nice but aren't required.

Most often, I'll be running around town.  Keep in mind that "town" in the Phoenix, AZ area can be a 100 mile round trip.  

I don't want a sore butt.

Safe is good.

Mike

The best bike for a noob is an early 1990s Honda Nighthawk 750.  Big enough to not outgrow, not too expensive, very low maintenence thanks to hydraulic valves (a rarity in bikes).  I had one, and I wish I had it today, but I had to sell it because I bought it at a bad time (an overeager college grad, without a real source of income).  I don't know when they stopped making them, but I think it went to the late 90s.  

Quoted: I don't want a sore butt.

... don't take up homosexuality and you should be fine

Quoted: Quoted: I don't want a sore butt. ... don't take up homosexuality and you should be fine

I seem to remember you were the one with those bumperstickers on YOUR vehicle..?  



Mike

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Buells are basically a 1200 sportster motor in a sport bike cafe' racer frame.  As to whether theyre any good or not it depends on what you mean by that.  They are nice bikes and they'll hold their reslae value better then most  japanese sport bikes.  As far as performance goes they cant hold a candle to the Japanese sport bikes in handling, speed, or performance in general.   But they are a Harley so that counts for something.  Whats your riding experience?  Are ya a newbie ?   Actually- yes-- I am a complete novice to this. Thanks, Mike Ok a novice?  Well let me be the first to welcome ya to the wonderful dangerous world of street bikes.   If ya want my honest opinion and you are infact a new rider who wants a crotch rocket lemme suggest this to you.  You may not be able to get decent insurance on a sport bike over 600 cc and more over you most likely dont want or need a bike over 600 ccs as your first street bike.  Tha being said pick yourself out a nice GXSR or CBR 600 and learn how to ride.  Those bikes are PLENTY fast enuff with enuff torque to pucker your A-hole for the first few years of riding.  If you happen to not kill yourself or seriously hurt yourself in the first 2 years then ya can go to a 750 / or 1000.  Get a decent 600 a really GOOD helmet and jacket.  Save the buell for another time.  Incase you're thinking I dont know my ass from my elbow Im 32 years old and have been riding street bikes for the better part of 15 years.  Anyway I hope I helped ya good luck and ride safe.   I'm actually not seeking a "crotch rocket."  My problem is that my needs don't seem to fit in well with a "standard" bike. I want freeway legal speeds.  Okay, so being able to speed up to 85 (75 is the rural limit in AZ) to pass a vehicle is more like it.  However, speed kills and I've seen what happens when speed meets a heavy object. Insurable is good.   I want comfortable, as I intend to do an occasional long distance ride here or there. Long distance = weekend or more, so the ability to add touring luggage would be nice. I like cruisers more than crotch rockets; they seem much more comfortable.  However, crotch rockets ARE less expensive..... Cruise control, highway pegs, and a radio would be nice but aren't required. Most often, I'll be running around town.  Keep in mind that "town" in the Phoenix, AZ area can be a 100 mile round trip.   I don't want a sore butt. Safe is good. Mike

I was looking at the new XB12X Ulysses that Buell put out this year. Im to big for a low bike like most sport bikes, but the 12X looks like it might fit me better. Just a thought since you said you werent looking for a croch rocket Id mention it.