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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:05:37 AM EDT
[#1]
Ive heard that in peace time, as many or more servicemen die as war. I think it's a croc of shit.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:06:53 AM EDT
[#2]
That number likely includes training and operating mishaps, natural causes (heart attacks etc.), motor vehicle accidents (#1 killer IIRC), recreational deaths (sports, drowning, etc.). Basically everything that wasn't combat, combat-related, homicide/manslaughter, and suicide.
It takes the fingers on both hands to count the number of friends that I have lost just in H-46 mishaps over the past 16 years.  ETA - I do recall that during Desert Shield/Storm, the death rate among US forces was far lower than the statistical peace time norm. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:06:59 AM EDT
[#3]
eta: if someone can show me the numbers and this was true, I'd be stunned. eta: Looks like the numbers may be accurate after all. I am stunned. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:07:41 AM EDT
[#4]
That number almost seems hard to believe..
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:09:13 AM EDT
[#5]
I'll give you one example, from my own family.
For YEARS, my family would tell stories of my Great Great Great (etc) Grandfather who served as a Captain, fighting valiantly for the North in the civil war. He died a war hero. Well... ...my mother was doing some family research and accidentally came across a very old newspaper article on microfilm. As it turns out, my Grandfather - a Private - was one of the first casualties of the Civil War in the south. The war hadn't really started in earnest yet, and soldiers didn't have much to do. He died - and I quote - "..playing a game of chance with a revolver". Stupid Pollock. 
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:10:48 AM EDT
[#6]
For you nay-sayers here's a press release from the DoD's site. While it doesn't give every year's information it does lend creadibility to the numbers given.
www.dod.gov/news/Aug1997/n08111997_9708114.html |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:10:53 AM EDT
[#7]
Guy, people die every day crossin the street. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:11:29 AM EDT
[#8]
I can believe it. We have lost about 10 locally in the past 2-3 years at an installation with about 5000 people tops. They were alcohol, vehicle, or work related. With the totals of all four services added together and over 13 years that is probably true. Thousands of people die everyday.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:12:50 AM EDT
[#9]
Not at all. The number of servicemen who died fell drastically during desert shield/desert storm because they were taken away from their cars. Ever driven on a military base and noticed the absurdly low speed limits and overzealous enforcement? It's because the #1 cause of death among servicemen is auto accidents. Here's the article, it's a good one and www.powerlineblog.com is always worth reading, very smart fellows. Some Thoughts on Casualties in Times of War and Peace It is universally acknowledged that public support for the Iraq war is eroding. Some of the polls supporting this claim are faulty because they are based on obviously misleading internal data, but the basic point cannot be denied: many Americans, possibly even a majority, have turned against the war. This should hardly be a surprise. On the contrary, how could it be otherwise? News reporting on the war consists almost entirely of itemizing casualties. Headlines say: "Two Marines killed by roadside bomb." Rarely do the accompanying stories--let alone the headlines that are all that most people read--explain where the Marines were going, or why; what strategic objective they and their comrades were pursuing, and how successful they were in achieving it; or how many terrorists were also killed. For Americans who do not seek out alternative news sources like this one, the war in Iraq is little but a succession of American casualties. The wonder is that so many Americans do, nevertheless, support it. The sins of the news media in reporting on Iraq are mainly sins of omission. Not only do news outlets generally fail to report the progress that is being made, and often fail to put military operations into any kind of tactical or strategic perspective, they assiduously avoid talking about the overarching strategic reason for our involvement there: the Bush administration's conviction that the only way to solve the problem of Islamic terrorism, long term, is to help liberate the Arab countries so that their peoples' energies will be channelled into the peaceful pursuits of free enterprise and democracy, rather than into bizarre ideologies and terrorism. Partly this omission is due to laziness or incomprehension, but I think it is mostly attributable to the fact that if the media acknowledged that reforming the Arab world, in order to drain the terrorist swamp, has always been the principal purpose of the Iraq war, it would take the sting out of their "No large stockpiles of WMDs!" theme. One wonders how past wars could have been fought if news reporting had consisted almost entirely of a recitation of casualties. The D-Day invasion was one of the greatest organizational feats ever achieved by human beings, and one of the most successful. But what if the only news Americans had gotten about the invasion was that 2,500 allied soldiers died that day, with no discussion of whether the invasion was a success or a failure, and no acknowledgement of the huge strategic stakes that were involved? Or what if such news coverage had continued, day by day, through the entire Battle of Normandy, with Americans having no idea whether the battle was being won or lost, but knowing only that 54,000 Allied troops had been killed by the Germans? How about the Battle of Midway, one of the most one-sided and strategically significant battles of world history? What if there had been no "triumphalism"--that dreaded word--in the American media's reporting on the battle, and Americans had learned only that 307 Americans died--never mind that the Japanese lost more than ten times that many--without being told the decisive significance of the engagement? Or take Iwo Jima, the iconic Marine Corps battle. If Americans knew only that nearly 7,000 Marines lost their lives there, with no context, no strategy, and only sporadic acknowledgement of the heroism that accompanied those thousands of deaths, would the American people have continued the virtually unanimous support for our country, our soldiers and our government that characterized World War II? We are conducting an experiment never before seen, as far as I know, in the history of the human race. We are trying to fight a war under the auspices of an establishment that is determined--to put the most charitable face on it--to emphasize American casualties over all other information about the war. Sometimes it becomes necessary to state the obvious: being a soldier is a dangerous thing. This is why we honor our service members' courage. For a soldier, sailor or Marine, "courage" isn't an easily-abused abstraction--"it took a lot of courage to vote against the farm bill"--it's a requirement of the job. Even in peacetime. The media's breathless tabulation of casualties in Iraq--now, over 1,800 deaths--is generally devoid of context. Here's some context: between 1983 and 1996, 18,006 American military personnel died accidentally in the service of their country. That death rate of 1,286 per year exceeds the rate of combat deaths in Iraq by a ratio of nearly two to one. That's right: all through the years when hardly anyone was paying attention, soldiers, sailors and Marines were dying in accidents, training and otherwise, at nearly twice the rate of combat deaths in Iraq from the start of the war in 2003 to the present. Somehow, though, when there was no political hay to be made, I don't recall any great outcry, or gleeful reporting, or erecting of crosses in the President's home town. In fact, I'll offer a free six-pack to the first person who can find evidence that any liberal expressed concern--any concern--about the 18,006 American service members who died accidentally in service of their country from 1983 to 1996. The point? Being a soldier is not safe, and never will be. Driving in my car this afternoon, I heard a mainstream media reporter say that around 2,000 service men and women have died in Afghanistan and Iraq "on President Bush's watch." As though the job of the Commander in Chief were to make the jobs of our soldiers safe. They're not safe, and they never will be safe, in peacetime, let alone wartime. What is the President's responsibility? To expend our most precious resources only when necessary, in service of the national interest. We would all prefer that our soldiers never be required to fight. Everyone--most of all, every politician--much prefers peace to war. But when our enemies fly airplanes into our skyscrapers; attack the nerve center of our armed forces; bomb our embassies; scheme to blow up our commercial airliners; try to assassinate our former President; do their best to shoot down our military aircraft; murder our citizens; assassinate our diplomats overseas; and attack our naval vessels--well, then, the time has come to fight. And when the time comes to fight, our military personnel are ready. They don't ask to be preserved from all danger. They know their job is dangerous; they knew that when they signed up. They are prepared to face the risk, on our behalf. All they ask is to be allowed to win. It is, I think, a reasonable request. It's the least that we--all Americans, including reporters and editors--can do. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:12:58 AM EDT
[#10]
That's an average of 1385 a year. In the early 80s there were a couple of million (plus) service members in uniform, if you include reserves. They do dangerous things, and the really safety concious era of the military has only recently begun, so that volume of people, doing that type of work, and partying their asses off when they had the chance, I can easily believe that the totals added up to 18K.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:13:26 AM EDT
[#11]
So the deaths aren't necessarily during service then?
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:14:07 AM EDT
[#12]
I just emailed Rush for his facts. Who knows, he might respond?! Patty
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:14:50 AM EDT
[#13]
From the link: In 1980, there were 117 noncombat deaths per 100,000 service members -- about 2,390 deaths out of 2.05 million service members. In 1996, there were 68 noncombat deaths per 100,000 servicemembers -- 1,020 noncombat deaths out of 1.5 million servicemembers. Of those, 228 service members died in privately owned vehicle accidents and 190 service members committed suicide. -------- It's hard to believe until you take into account the number of people in the service. The 18,000 number may very well be correct. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:15:18 AM EDT
[#14]
Fortunately (for you) your Great Great -1 grandparent had been born at that time. Back to the subject, I wonder if it doesn't also include all the accidents that happen off post while the service member is serving. Falls, auto accidents, etc. That would add up pretty fast. My great grandfather had a number of children with his first wife. When she died, he remarried at an advanced age and had one son, who had one son, who had me. WHEW! Close one. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:15:28 AM EDT
[#15]
www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=2625
Between Jan. 1, 2001, and the end of September 2003, , the Army recorded 534 accidental deaths, the Navy, 291, the Air Force, 280, and the Marines, 250, Defense Department figures show. Half died in private car and motorcycle accidents, 15% in aviation accidents and 5% each in military vehicle accidents and by drowning. During the 1991 Persian Gulf War, as in the recent conflict in Afghanistan, far more soldiers died from nonhostile causes, including sickness, suicide and accidents, than from enemy fire. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:15:49 AM EDT
[#16]
Most are off duty auto accidents IIRC. Same thing that kills lots of civilian men aged 18-24. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:16:37 AM EDT
[#17]
I don't have the numbers and 18,000 seems mighty high, but when I was in the Army many years ago, the Army was averaging 6 aviation deaths a month in training accidents. Also, everytime there was division size exercise in Germany, at least one person was killed. Again, 18,000 is a big number, but it would be interesting to see what the numbers are. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:18:05 AM EDT
[#18]
Actually, its quite easy to get killed in training. The Military by its very nature does a lot of things that are inherently dangerous like jumping out of perfectly good aircraft, training in rough terrain, live fire, etc. Also there are a lot of dumbasses who do stupid shit, occasionally in EOD we got to see these dumbasses in action, what was left of them, or have to dispose of their Dud collection in the barracks. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:18:46 AM EDT
[#19]
Most people don't realize that around 50,000 +/- people die a year in auto accidents.
Thats VN war fatalities in the USA every year. Essayons |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:23:04 AM EDT
[#20]
I remember a bunch of soldiers were killed at Fort Drum in the past few years when their mess tent was accidentally shelled.
You hear reports now and then of soldiers there being hurt or killed. Even in peace time the military is operating large machinery, working outdoors in bad weather, driving trucks filled with men off road or on snow covered roads, sending men up in planes and helicopters etc. Just like commercial construction, when you do dangerous stuff with big machines some guys are going to get hurt or killed in the process. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:27:40 AM EDT
[#21]
The media has been misrepresenting deaths of Americans for decades. We forget how many people die every day in the United States from all sorts of unnatural causes such as auto accidents and drownings. Yet we get huge media coverage of individual killings that catch some media person's fancy,but are statistically irrelevant to those not related to the victims. The fact that they're doing this with the military death figures is no surprise. "In earlier new, 3 Marines died in an auto accident due to slick roads" just doesn't boost the viewing statistics like "3 Marines killing by car bomb as a result of President Bush's war".
 I guess this is also proof of that saying regarding perception of death: "A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths are a statistic". |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:27:51 AM EDT
[#22]
This just means that we need to end the occupation of hundreds of military bases- we're stretching ourselves too thin!
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:28:46 AM EDT
[#23]
I had to go back and edit my post after I continued reading. When I was in there was always a helo crashing or car wreck or something. When I saw the number my first reaction was "bs", but given the sheer numbers of people in the military plus the DoD link given above, the number seems to be fairly accurate. Still it's a hard number to think about. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:32:02 AM EDT
[#24]
I don't know if their facts are correct, but I found another article online (from attorneys, no less):
Military Hazards & Accidents Overview If you or a family member has been injured, contact a personal injury attorney today. Just fill out InjuryBoard.com's on-line questionnaire and have a personal injury lawyer review your potential personal injury claim - free of charge. > Headlines & News > Ask an Attorney Since 1979, almost 30,000 active-duty military personnel in the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force have died in non-combat situations, an average of nearly 5 deaths a day. The deaths occurred in activities ranging from off-duty incidents such as sickness, homicide and suicide, to training exercises and other peacetime missions. In 1998 an average of 55 soldiers out of every 100,000 died in non-combat related accidents.Over the same period, over 1,000 soldiers have died from combat-related causes. These combat-related deaths occurred in conflicts including, but not limited to, the Gulf War, Somalia, Panama, Bosnia, various terrorist attacks (most notably a 1983 bombing of the Beirut Marine barracks) and Gulf War II (Operation Iraqi Freedom). While military duty in both combat and non-combat training situations is perilous, some commentators are alarmed at the number of military men and women who loose their lives in peacetime maneuvers. Two Congressional Acts allow United States servicemen and women to seek damages for injuries sustained due to medical malpractice. Under the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), military personnel and their dependents are eligible to sue the federal government for medical malpractice that occurred at a military facility in the United States. The Military Claims Act (MCA) allows soldiers to sue the government for malpractice that occurred in an American military facility outside the United States. If you or a loved one have been injured or killed in a military accident, it may be important to contact an attorney who can help you protect your legal rights. Please keep in mind that there may be time limits within which you must commence suit. Attorneys associated with InjuryBoard.com will evaluate your case free of charge. In addition, you will not pay any fees or costs unless your attorney recovers money for you. Please click on the free Ask An Attorney button to take advantage of this valuable service. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:33:50 AM EDT
[#25]
My dad was on USS Ranger on a WestPac Cruse in the early '60's and they lost 6 on board that ship in one cruse. everything from one of his good friends in a ramp strike to a young Marine getting a 'Dear John' letter and throwing the saftey rope over his head and walking onto a spinning prop blade, commiting suiside. ALL kinds of ways to die or get yourself killed in the military and not in combat.
artar |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:49:21 AM EDT
[#26]
Being a war-fighter is a dangerous occupation, even when not actively engaged in combat. It's not for everybody, and we must continually thank and admire the American men and women who VOLUNTEER for such duty.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 9:51:10 AM EDT
[#27]
Plane crashes, chopper crashes, chute malfunctions, training accidents, not to even mention the freak deaths where a seemingly healthy soldier just drops dead because of an unknown heart problrm. The military has a dangerous job. Training for dangerous work is sometimes dangerous in itself. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 10:36:25 AM EDT
[#28]
More people die every year in the U.S. from operating chainsaws than from fighting in Iraq...
That little factoid means nothing! The import of the war in Iraq is incredible! Using casualty figures to somehow “rate risk” or other forms of spanking the war monkey is a joke. We are hopefully creating a western style democracy right in the heart of jihad Johnny’s home turf. And aside from that, we are kicking the living shit out of every man-jack willing to fight. The enemy is devoting money, men, equipment and every other resource imaginable to fighting us under conditions that could not be more favorable We are winning this war. Not just the narrow objectives achievable in Iraq but also the larger war against a culture of death and murder. This is a war that is going to be fought. 09/11 proved that fact to anyone with an I.Q. above vegetative. We can allow the where and how to be chosen by them or we can take it out of their hands… It’s about the only decision we’ve been allowed in this whole mess When you start playing the “rate the risk” game, don’t forget that little fact. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 2:24:52 PM EDT
[#29]
I read somewhere that over 1,000 men died during the PRACTICE for the D-Day invasion. I'd like to find out if that's true or not.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 2:44:30 PM EDT
[#30]
As an MP in the early 80s, I don't doubt his numbers at all. Driving and alcohol was #1 killer, then you have suicides, accidents, [take your pick there] jet, helo, tank, jeep, humvees, list goes on and on. As much as some people dislike Rush, the guy can pull out and spout FACTS that wipes the other side out 99% of the time. Which is why they always start ranting and acting emotional. They lost.
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Posted: 8/25/2005 2:48:36 PM EDT
[#31]
+1 Look at what these people use every day. Firearms, explosives, airplanes, vehicles, you name it. Couple that with being young and (In their minds)bullet proof and you have the makings for casualties. I look at somwe of the things I did in the service and I'm not really surprised. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 3:04:48 PM EDT
[#32]
749 U.S. soldiers and sailors died 60 years ago in a German torpedo attack during a practice landing for D-Day. Nine fast-moving German torpedo boats happened upon the convoy, sank two ships and badly damaged a third. The attack killed nearly four times as many men as the the U.S. 4th Infantry Division later lost in the D-Day landing, June 6, 1944. The convoy was lightly guarded and, because of a typographical error, the American ships were on the wrong radio frequency and unable to receive warnings. http://ap.tbo.com/ap/breaking/MGA154OQHTD.html |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 3:05:51 PM EDT
[#33]
Doesn't surprise me. During my time in I remember thinking it was crazy all the troops that were getting killed in car wrecks and such. I lost a friend in the service in a car wreck.
Couple that with the fact that the military does dangerous shit even in peacetime and it's plausible. There's a reason servicemembers can't get life insurance except through SGLI. I remember there was this BC that got killed in a freak grenade accident. |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 3:17:18 PM EDT
[#34]
"I could get killed for tellin you this" "You can get killed walkin your doggie!" |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 3:32:14 PM EDT
[#35]
my brother's friend was a helicopter mechanic in the Marines
they lost people on just about every training cruise to the Mediteranian. Guys would walk into running tail rotors (normally those were suicides after getting a dear john letter). some guys decided to practice their repelling skills, by going off the back of the ship. they fell and were sucked under by the prop wash |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 7:18:06 PM EDT
[#36]
My buddy in the 101st says the 2nd brigade has lost as many men since returning from Iraq as they lost in Iraq. He says the 3rd brigade has lost more men than they lost in iraq.
GunLvr |
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Posted: 8/25/2005 7:20:46 PM EDT
[#37]
People listen to the dunderhead?
WOw. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:49:46 AM EDT
[#38]
Also, when many people think of war deaths, they have a mental picture of a single constant massive battle rather than the individual attacks that are punctuated with some relative quiet.
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Posted: 8/26/2005 2:58:23 AM EDT
[#39]
Rush is smart enough not to give out facts and figures without checking them. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:23:19 AM EDT
[#40]
.
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:37:51 AM EDT
[#41]
I believe it.
During a "Gallant Eagle" exercise I took part in in the early '80's we managed to kill 10-11 guys just shooting blanks at each other The majority of the deaths were caused in one duece' rollover that killed 6 Marines but we also had a Cobra crash and a couple of heat related fatalities. Granted, there were ALOT of people in on that exercise (Army,Marines,'Guard and AF) but it's sobering to think that we managed that many fatalities in a (War) "Game".
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:45:05 AM EDT
[#42]
So it's actually statistically SAFER to enlist during a time of war and go fight than it is to enlist during peacetime.
Unbelievable. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:46:52 AM EDT
[#43]
When I was in Hawaii as an MP in 86-89. I recall the majority of the deaths were drunk driving related. We also had several of the dear john suicides.
(I hope there is a special place in hell for the cu*ts who do this) There were also a LOT of drownings. Soldiers not used to the high surf and taking risks while scuba diving.We also had the "Drink yourself to death crowd" and lots of motorcycle accidents. Think about the ages of most soldiers. The are on their own for the first time, They have money, they get alcohol, they have to prove their tough by doing stupid shit. They do LOTs of things that are not the best judgement. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:52:37 AM EDT
[#44]
Something like 800 men died in Operation Tiger which was a D-Day practice when German E-boats got mixed in with the landing craft. All hell broke loose. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 3:59:21 AM EDT
[#45]
Some good info.
Thanks |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 4:19:45 AM EDT
[#46]
How many millions of people are in a Dynamic Enviroment as the US Military?
Live Fire, Aircraft, Explosives, Moving Heavy Equipment, Water Ops, Jumping out of Aircraft, Tanks, Drinking and Driving, Drug Use, Car Accidents, Heart Attacks, Heat Illness, Bug and Animal bites, getting hit by a car, being smashed between two five tons while they are being loaded on the USS Saipan, it goes on and on....Everything that kills us out here, kills the US Service Member as well. With the Millions of those who serve, why is it hard to believe? |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 5:44:35 AM EDT
[#47]
Remember that the first death invovled directly with the war in Afghanistan was an Air Force guy who was killed when his forklift rolled over. We lost more killed in Desert Shield in accidents, before any shooting started, than we lost in combat in Grenada and Panama combined.
It's alot of folks, but I can see the numer if you include off-duty deaths. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 5:50:29 AM EDT
[#48]
I was a Marine F-4 and A-4 pilot. Eleven of my squadronmates died in peacetime training accidents.
One died in a war - when his own wingman stuck his wingtip through his canopy while flying formation. |
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:04:17 AM EDT
[#49]
Hell, the death rate in washington DC is higher per number of people than our service people in Iraq, maybe we should pull out of DC?
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Posted: 8/26/2005 6:25:22 AM EDT
[#50]
I spent 5 years (68-73) in the army and said to say it is all true.
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