Ok, a thread I was posting in got moved to the pit and then locked. In it I was trying to direct it to a more reasoned, intelligent discourse on the current world situation. I know that this is difficult given the subject, but I really would like to get some reasonable discussion going.

Please try to keep this above board so as not to get it locked...here is my response to a previous post that I didn't get in before the lock...

Quoted: You said it yourself tho... taking that kind of approach will only alienate muslims that right now that are not our enemy. It a counter-productive strategy. Secondly, you are right this is not WWII, so you can just pick some country to bomb like Japan or Germany. You would have to nuke the entire middle east, which I'm sure some here wouldnt care at all if we did, but it will never happen. Its not realistic to say we will nuke an entire people. The only realistic strategy is to try to establish friendly government in the region to help root out the roots of terrorism and put it down on a gloal scale. To do this these governments are going to need moderate muslims. I guarantee you that Iraqis want to see terrorism come to an end... and they are fighting to help that happen. Other countries will follow suit... why... because the terrorists have no vision for the future. They have nothing to offer the muslim people but more violence death and destruction which doesnt benefit them at all. But if we start treating all muslims as our enemy, we push them right into the terrorists camp. Some might be wacky enough to think that is a good thing because then we finally could treat all muslims the same and kill them all. But the morally right thing to do is the fight by an ethic of just war; and that means not killing people needlessly. If we dont alienate mainstream muslims, their lives can be saved and so can many of our guys lives. It will eventually be Iraqis and Afghanis we are doing thier own fighting to kill terrorists, and other could follow if we properly support them and give them a chance to do so.

Ok, see, intelligent discourse, much more productive than toilet remarks

I agree with most of what you said above in principle....unfortunately I don't think the basic tenants of islam will allow that course of action.

The unfortunate thing, if you really look at the course of islamic history, is it is a religion that has been at almost constant war against what it considers non-believers and infidels. Again, as you say it is not ALL muslims that have fought or supported this battle since the begining, but the fact of the matter is that there are always enough devout true believers to sustain this war. So I do not think islam will ever allow itself to live peaceably throughout the world unless it goes some massive fundamental changes.

Also unfortunately, I believe that one cannot be a true, devout muslim without harboring some fundamentalist tendencies.

The only fundamental change I can see which would truly defang islam is for the secular muslims, the ones who follow the basics, and have their beliefs, but ultimately just want to live and let live to rise up and destroy or cast out the devout fundamentalist types...a complete purge, including the mullahs and clerics. Sadly I don't see that happening.

And you don't address the problem of devout fundamentalist muslims always believing that islam comes first. over and above all else. Like I said, I believe well over 50% of muslims in this country believe this, how do propose to solve this problem? When push comes to shove they will side with islam against this country and its citizens.

We have groups like CAIR in this country, who the pablum eating sheeple, liberals, progressives, socialists, and idiots all hail as the voice of islam, defenders of the downtrodden, the great muslim propagandists who speak for muslim rights. Unfortunately for those who care to delve deeper, it is a dangerous, terrorist supporting organization whose goal it is to pull the wool over the eyes of the gullible until they can turn the US into another islamic theocracy. Its leaders have made statements to that fact.

No, with this war, you cannot simply pick a country and bomb them. Because the enemy doesn't belong to a single country, but to a single world wide religion. Additionally if you remember we just didn't bomb Japan, Germany, and Italy during WWII but also France, Belgium, Luxemborg, North Africa, Pacific islands too many to name, China, Burma, India...it was a World War, and not many countries were spared sorrow and destruction.

This current engagement is a World War also in my opinion, and very few countries have and will be spared sorrow and destruction. Unfortunately most people in the world today are not the type of people we had during WWII...they want their wars clean, with no collateral damage, very few casualties. People are bemoaning the fact that we are nearing 2,000 dead in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is a lot of good men and women that have been killed, there is no argument. It is sad that it has happened.

But during WWII we had that many killed on single days....much less after 4 years of war. If we would have had the caliber of people that populate the US, not to mention the press we have, back in WWII, we would've called it quits by 1943, and just let the Axis do what they wanted. These are sad days for this country in my book. We have become a weak people, not willing to make the sacrifices necessary to achieve victory. And if we don't buck up and triumph, we will reap what we sow......