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Posted: 8/24/2005 2:36:21 AM EDT
Lots of you know that I have a part time gig at a gas station and work 3rd shift. Lots of others have been killed lately. Accute traumatic lead poisoning. Anyway. This makes me nervous. I'm safer at the fire dept. My right (carry) side is fairly well concealed. So my ? is this. If I'm gettin robbed, should I take the chance and shoot them and hope they can't get any rounds off, or do I hope they won't and give them the money. Frankly I'm not to excited about the prospect of doing nothing and becoming a victim.
ETA Two days ago a man was robbed at gunpoint a block from my house (2 blocks from my work) and last night a guy decided to catch a bullet with his chest not far from here. Things are looking more and more like shit will hit the fan. |
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What store did the person work at ?
I cant find anything on local news sites. LB |
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If they already have a gun pointed at you, your only option is to give them what they want. Getting robbed is better than getting shot. There's no shame in choosing to survive. Don't worry about what others will think, because most armchair warriors would wet their pants and start crying in that situation.
How long does it take you to draw and fire from concealment? I can do 1.5-2.5 seconds pretty consistently. That means if I were up against someone with similar experience, they could have fired 1-3 rounds in the time it takes me to draw and fire. Your best bet is to stay alert and look for things that are out of the ordinary. If every robber would be nice and wear a mask, it would be much easier to identify them as they walk up to the door. Unfortunately, the type of people who rob gas stations aren't seasoned professionals. They figure it's an easy target of opportunity and don't realize that every gas station has video cameras, and the tapes get turned over to the police. Also, consider your cover and concealment options throughout your workplace. Cover is anything that will likely stop a bullet. A pallet full of 12-packs of soda would be an option I'd consider if I were in that situation. Concealment is anything that makes it harder for the person to determine where the target is. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. Situational awareness is your best weapon in a robbery. Does your employer allow you to carry on their premises? Most don't because they don't want the liability. If you're doing it anyway, expect to be fired if they find out, even if you're totally justified. If you draw on the wrong person, you could find yourself with some hefty legal bills for brandishing or assault with a deadly weapon. Also, keep in mind that if you do shoot someone and it's fully justified, there's still a very real possibility that their family will sue you. A few years back, I saw something that estimated the average cost (legal bills, etc) of a justifiable homicide to be around $30k. That's a lot of money for doing nothing wrong. |
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Carrying a gun is a hell of a responsibility. Nobody here can make the call for you, it's something that's got to happen in your own mind.
Before you put on that weapon every single day, you must first come to the realization that you may have to use it, and you may have to take somebody's life. If you have not yet reached that, you are not truly armed. You may have a gun, but you are not really armed. Remember the laws of your state regarding deadly force, and if you can quote them, even better. Ultimately, it will be your decision whether to take a life over $50 in a register or let them go. Nobody can read the mind up a jacked up criminal in the heat of a moment with a gun in his hand. It's all your call. |
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It's your LIFE, not the companies.. if the place is being robbed, I'd help them carry the register out if I had to, but if my life is in danger, I'm surviving.
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Im watching fox 13 but it's not on their website. Link market at southern and boston. Happened at 11 30 last night. |
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This is some very good advise. Bomber |
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Given your hypothetical scenario, the very first thing to do is MOVE! Moving targets are much harder to hit than a stationary target. Given the rising number of robberies in which the vic is murdered afterwards, I would be very disinclined to allow the robbery to continue unless the gun is literally in my face, at which point I would be waiting for something to distract the persons attention, even if only long enough for me to remove myself from that line of fire. Ensure that no innocents are in the line of fire, then engage the threat until the threat is no longer a threat. Notice I did not say until they are dead, but until the threat is no longer a threat. Even if it takes every round of ammo you possess. Just remember, you take on HUGE liability when performing this sort of activity, and you are going to lose later on, even if you win. Soon, some of the guys will come along to tell you what badasses they are and perform their mental masturbation over your scenario, but remember, your survival is purely up to you. |
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Not to be "Flip" at all here guy (I've taken a few "Less-than-desireable" second jobs myself over the years) but, get a new job or make peace with the fact that you've got "Target/Fast cash" written all over you in the position you're currently holding.
There are real monsters out there who WILL kill you (And risk everything the justice system can throw at them) for the $28.50 they might just possibly gain by ending your existance. |
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Never pick a fight you can't win.
Never underestimate your opponent. I know cliqches but a truism is a truism. No you can't bank on a robber not shooting you anyway even if you give them the money. A dead witness makes a poor witness. You can bank on them shooting you if you are attempting to draw down while they have you in their sights. It's a tough call and only one you can make at the time. Of the incidents I have followed over the years that the good guy came out on top there was always certain things they all had in common. First and foremost the badguy always had the drop on them. Then it was either they got lucky and the badguy missed (not a happy thought to count on) or the badguy got distracted and gave time for the goodguy to pull down and fire without hesitation. It's kind of hard to get details on those who tried but failed. Sorry I can't be more helpful. The only time in my life I got the opportunity to pull my assailant gave me a wide path by not only pointing his gun in an awkward direction but even looked away. I considered that really lucky at the time. Tj |
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It's not about the money in the register. It's not knowing the stability of the crack head who is willing to risk prison for $50. Unless they got the drop on me, I would start shooting as soon as I saw their weapon. If they did getb the drop on me, and during the course of the robbery I saw an oportunity to shoot first, I would take it. No matter what, do not let them tie you up, or force you in the back of the store on your knees. Just because you comply with their demands doesn't mean that they won't kill you before they leave.
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Where in Memphis did this happen? The sad thing is I am not surprised in the least. It just angers me to hear the antis say things like "just give them what they want blah blah". If you are being robbed assume you are going to get shot. I worked in Memphis for a little over six years at a funeral home and that kind of crap happened a lot. That's when I first started carrying a gun. A guy that worked part-time for our funeral home's removal service got killed in a similar way. He was from Arkansas, BTW.
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I feel that I'm in even more danger at my other job, (Fire dept) There I can't carry so I am just about helpless and that makes it a non issue.
See above post for address in memphis where it happened. |
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You have already taken the first steps for your personal survival. You have armed yourself, done some training...at least you apparently shoot IDPA, which is far beyond what many others do...and you are actively thinking about the issue. Good for you.
"Robbery", in my state, and most others, is defined as "taking by force, or the threat of force" and is thus a crime of violence directed against a person. (If the cashier turns his back and the perp grabs money from the cash drawer without saying a word or making any threats and then runs, that is "theft") In the case of a theft you usually are not legally justified in pulling the trigger...robbery is a different matter, especially if there have been several recent documented, robberies nearby where clerks have been shot after offering no resistance. My very first recommendation is to give some serious consideration to whether you need this job badly enough to continue placing yourself and your family in such jeopardy. If the honest answer is "no" then simply find a safer part time job...in other words, don't BE there when the robbery takes place unless you absolutely have to. If the answer to the above question is "yes", then I would recommend that you find yourself some good concealable body armor and use it. Look in the EE and you can find some good to excellent deals on slightly used vests. Kevlar, if taken care of, will continue to work as designed well past the 5 year "expiration date" of most body armor. A vest is not magic, but it certainly can save your life under some circumstances. For sure it is better than NOT wearing a vest. The issue of "what should I do?" is, as others have pointed out here, your decision to make, and muct be based on what is happening at the time and place in question. No one can make that decision for you. Are you willing to place your life in the hands of a doped up thug...maybe even a juvenile gang-banger with no more conscience than a rattlesnake...who has already proven by announcing a robbery, that he is willing to use force against you to take what he wants? If you wait to actually see a gun, or worse, wait until it looks as if he has decided to execute you, it may already be too late. Experienced stake out cops will tell you that there are at least three stages to an armed riobbery (in a more complicated bank robbery or such there can be more than these, but here we speak of a typical "Stop & Rob" market robbery, etc.). The "look it over" stage, where he / they check the store out and decide it is good to go; the "confrontation" stage, where the robber(s) is usually as tight as a banjo string (often they are high on dope as well, since many need the drugs for "courage") and may be prepped to shoot at the slightest hint of resistance. Once they have the money, however, most will make a mental "shift" onto "getaway" stage. This is the instant when...if the decision has been made to confront... officers will undertake that confrontation. By doing so, they have bought themselves a slight advantage, because the BG now has to do another mental "shift"...they are now "inside his OODA loop". If you wait to see or hear some direct threat of your execution before acting, the BG has probably gotten inside your loop, and now you will be forced to react to HIM. Should that happen, my guess is that the last thing he will expect is agressive, overwhelming force being directed at him by his victim. Realize that once you have started, you must be willing and able to carry this through to the end...even if his two buddies outside come running in to help. (Not the usual response, but not unheard of either). Running out of ammo, weapon malfunctions, etc. will probably get you killed here...plan for the possibility. Lateral movement, use of cover, positions of advantage and "staying in the fight" are all important. (Can you arrange the store layout to provide an advantage for yourself?) If the situation is not resolved after the first few rounds, "firepower" becomes increasingly important. It could come down to who has the last bullet or shotshell...make certain that is YOU. Possible civil lawsuits are part of the risk, as is the more remote, but still very real, possibility of criminal prosecution. The "standard of proof" in a criminal case is "beyond a reasonable doubt", but in a civil case, it is "the preponderance of the evidence"...a much lower standard. You might want to spend the $150-300 or so required for an hour of an experienced criminal attorney's time and get his or her advice on the legal end of things before you have to pull that trigger. Still think you really need that part time job? |
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It's a coin toss -- Better to consider the nature of the problem. If there is a weapon on you, you are in trouble, and you are better off controlling the situation, than letting it play out. I would dive for cover first -- At least then I'd be improving the odds, and cover is a good thing. The odds of an untrained person hitting a moving target are slim. If the robber is focused, use a 'fake', like rolling your eyes and pretending to faint . I have read where this has worked out well. Get ahold of Ayoob's books. Reading good analysis will prepare you much better than reading the local fish wrapper. |
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As far as firepower goes, I've never heard of a robber carrying 2 spare mags into a robbery, but I've got them there, and on me. The store is laid out extremely well for defense. Including an office in a good posistion to fall back into with a BR door and a huge 2 way mirror backed by BR laminate. What I'm personally looking for now is some type of class for up close and personal gunfights. If I had a gun in my face maybe it would be better to deflect it with my left hand while drawing and firing with my right. I don't know. I do know I need more training. I shoot USPSA and hit what I aim at. But I've yet to aim at a person. And cardboard doesnt shoot back. So as far as I'm concerned, none of that matters. Except hoping that I have enough muscle memory built in that once I make the conscience decision to fire, that my body will react on it's own.
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When I used to work at a gunstore we has a glock 19 under the front counter held inplace by a cheap slip holster screwed to the underside of the counter. The idea was to drop to the floor, grab the pistol, and defend your life. Most igmo crooks just come in shooting now a days..... Be careful. And think about buying a deeply concealed back up gun.
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If your place already has a good layout that is a big plus. I would stash a buckshot gun in the office to fall back to. I spent many years working at a liquor store in Midtown Memphis while I was in college that was not behind glass. That is where I got my first real handgun training from a bunch of Jeff Cooper disciples.
I will say this. If a guy enters your store with a gun in his hand shoot him as fast as you can. If a guy comes in with a mask on shoot him as fast as you can. If a guy comes in and makes you nervous by wandering around waiting for all the other customers to leave, draw and hold your gun under the counter. Remember you HAVE TO SHOOT FIRST! This once well recognized fact seems to be lost on some folks now. If you don't shoot first you may not be shooting at all. One guy I worked with gave the hold up man the money and the guy still shot at him several times but missed since my buddy was running about 500 miles an hour out the front door. This experience changed and later saved my buddy's life. If a guy has a gun pointed at you the chance to draw is not there. If he glances away for a second that is enough time. The main thing is to profile the hold up man before he does anything and be active not reactive. I will not go into all the stories but myself and my co workers routinely profiled hold up men and stared them down and even directly challenged them at times. On one occassion they left our store and went directly across the street to the C store and robbed them instead. These guys were very nervous and sometimes sweating pretty bad. We had a code word and if one of us said it everybody else got out from behind the counter and took pre planned positions of cover that put anyone trying to rob us in a death trap. Try shooting at old shirts hung on whatever to get used to not seeing your holes and shooting at shirts. Like Bill Jordan said "It is easy to predict what a person will do in their first gunfight. They will do exactly as they have been trained to do." My buddy used to say "You don't have to hope their souls go to hell but their bodies have to be stopped". He's right. If you are training right and possess the right mindset you can prevail in a lot of circumstances. A vest is a good feeling if you can afford one. Once you have worked at a place a while you know all your regulars so there won't be so many people you have to assess. One time somebody asked one of my co workers about seeing people's faces you shoot. He told them "I don't see their face I only see their shirt". That's right. When you shoot hold up men you are not killing men. You are destroying gun platforms. Simple as that. A good trick is if you get caught short and there is only one guy when you hand him the money take out the whole cash drawer and slide it across the counter toward his gun hand. This puts him in a bind and he may redirect his gun or even put it away in order to start pulling the money out of the drawer. That is a golden moment. |
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Again, something else I didn't think about. I'm gonna go to all the major tac schools, learn everything I can, work with some cops that used to work in gas stations and develop tactics and a course for small store retail.
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