USMC and SOCOM - AR15.COM

Posted: 8/23/2005 8:23:51 PM EDT

Just got this webpage emailed tonight.

www.military.com/NewContent/0,13190,082205_Marines,00.htm?ESRC=marine.nl

An exclusive interview with U.S. Navy SEAL Commander Mark Divine

A brand-new Marine Corps special operations force is a project that has been in the conception and experimental stages since the terrorist attacks of 9/11. It became an operational test unit following the 2003 invasion of Iraq, and its official existence is now pending only the signature of U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.

But few insiders are talking about it, and for a variety of reasons.

As I wrote in a 2003 article for National Review Online, "Special operations units in the Marines are not accorded the same respect [by the Marine leadership] as they are in other branches. The Marines view special operations as simply another realm of warfighting. Marines are Marines, and no individual Marine or Marine unit is considered more elite than the other." That's long been the Corps' approach to special operations, and one of the reasons the Marine Corps successfully resisted becoming a component part the U.S. Defense Department's Special Operations Command (SOCOM) when it was formed back in 1986.

Many within the special operations circles of the Army, Navy, and Air Force had no qualms about that: After all, a Special Operations Command without Marine participation only meant that Army, Navy, and Air Force turf was protected. Or was it?

The Marines have always had a hand in special operations, and have -- in many ways -- been innovators of the same. But until recently, they've not been part of SOCOM. As a result of the recent upsurge of special operations requirements in the war on terror, that may change: There may soon be a permanent force of Marine commandos attached to SOCOM.

It's still a bit hush-hush.

According to an interview in Marine Corps Times (July 27), Marine Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler, commander of the I Marine Expeditionary Force and Marine Forces Central Command, said that he was skating "on one skate" for even discussing the Marine SOCOM Detachment. The sentiments of other senior officers are similar. Navy Commander Mark Divine, who has been directly involved in the development and observation of the new Marine team, is much more forthcoming.

A reserve SEAL officer with an extensive background in special operations, Divine was sent to Iraq last summer to observe and write a report -- MCSOCOM Proof of Concept Evaluation -- on the Marine unit's development and capabilities for SOCOM. Secretary Rumsfeld had previously directed that two independent studies be conducted: One by SOCOM (which became Commander Divine's report) and one from the Marine Corps (conducted by the Center for Naval Analysis). Both have been completed.

In his first interview since completing the report, Divine sat down with World Defense Review. He shared his observations and what he believes to be the future of the Marine Corps' involvement with SOCOM.

SMITH: When you were in Iraq, what were some of the joint-effort kinds of things going on that you observed between the Marines and the SEALs?

DIVINE: First off, there was significant integration, and the Marines did not like this. They were assigned to Naval Special Warfare Squadron One, and the commander of that squadron had some shortfalls. His job was to fight the war the best he could with the resources he had. The Marine Corps detachment was one of those resources. So, he used the Marine intelligence assets in his task group. Then he allowed the unit to operate as a subordinate task unit along the lines of the other SEAL task units [two SEAL platoons and a SEAL headquarters] that worked for him.

SMITH: Why did the Marines have a problem with that?

DIVINE: The Marine unit was a little over 100 people. This included 30 Reconnaissance Marines who were the main direct-action force. Then there was a 25- to 30-man logistical support unit. Then there was this huge intelligence group within the Marine detachment, and that was very valuable to the SEALs because we don't have that inherent capability. Also, Marine intelligence people understand ground combat. Contrast that with the Navy intelligence community, which was trained throughout the Cold War to identify Soviet ships, submarines, and aircraft. They really don't know how to hunt people, and we're just now really learning how to do that.

So the Marine intelligence people were parceled out to the other task units, and they did a great job. But the Marines wanted their 100-man detachment to operate as a stand-alone unit. We didn't allow that to happen. It truly was a joint Navy-Marine team. There were also several joint direct-action operations where the Marines supported the SEALs and vice versa.

SMITH: Where those direct-action operations raids against Al Qaeda forces?

DIVINE: Yes, raids against anti-coalition forces, really targeting some of the higher-level folks who had been identified in the insurgency.

SMITH: Were the raids effective?

DIVINE: There was certainly some good success. It took them a while to learn how to do business. For instance, their planning cycle was much longer than a typical SEAL planning cycle. But once they got their feet wet, they performed well. I think if you ask the Marines, they'll say they were held back by the SEALs. There wasn't anyone really holding anyone back. It was more like us basically needing them to do it the right way within the special operations environment. It was a lot of staff officer type stuff, and once they got up to speed on that - and working within the boundaries of the joint spec ops task force - they were off to the races.

SMITH: You once mentioned to me that there exists a philosophical difference between the Navy and Marine Corps wherein some military planners fear something of a SOCOM coup by the Marine leadership if the Marines ever became part of SOCOM.

DIVINE: I think it's nothing more than the way the Marines do business. They approach everything - from the way they do business in Washington to how they approach a peacetime program objective -- like it's a combat operation, and it's one of the reasons they are so darned successful. I have great admiration for them because of this. Marine officers are very accomplished in terms of decision planning and project initiative -- such as what we are talking about here today -- so it's no mystery as to why they've gotten as far as they have just through the efforts of a few special ops oriented Marines who have long-wanted to be part of the special operations community.

At the risk of being non-politically correct, if you were to stack Marine senior and general officers against the Army, they'd eat their lunch. I think that's where the fear comes from, because the Army, with its size, has essentially controlled SOCOM from the beginning. Now, there is a fear that the Marines will come in and - not so much that they will take-over SOCOM - but that they will tip the balance of power, and that they could easily have equal or greater influence than the Army which has had the most influence in SOCOM since the late 1980s.

SMITH: Why did the Marine Corps not become part of SOCOM initially? Was that a decision based on the personal wishes of Gen. Kelley [Gen. Paul X. Kelley, then-Commandant of the Marine Corps]?

DIVINE: Well, he was representing a large block of Marines who believed that Marines should support Marines, and that if they chopped-up their Recon community and sent some of them to SOCOM, they would be supporting and financing a large special operations component that was not going to be directly supporting the Marines.

SMITH: What about the Navy?

DIVINE: Believe it or not, we [the Navy] resisted as well. But the Navy finally let go of the SEALs and our support for the Navy has been strong ever since. In fact, whenever anyone says, 'hey, what's the Navy doing in this war on terror,' the Navy says, 'hey, we've got our SEALs,' and they point to us as being the crown jewel.

SMITH: Wasn't it just specific SEAL teams that went to SOCOM while the majority remained under total Navy control?

DIVINE: All SEALs were essentially chopped over to SOCOM. The only ties to the Navy were the fact that we wore the Navy uniform and we were paid by the Navy. And we did support Naval operations.

SMITH: How does the Marine unit differ from other special operations units. In other words, what unique elements or strengths does the Corps bring to the special operations table?

DIVINE: I think early on, the SEALs -- myself included -- were looking at this 100-man Marine Corps Detachment to see how well they could act like SEALs or how well they could act like Army Special Forces. As we got into it, it dawned on us that's just a lens to look through, because they are not SEALs and they are not Green Berets. They are Marines, first and foremost. Now, if they end up bringing a full component of 2,500 people, it will be a Marine Air-Ground Task Force or a special ops MAGTF. There will be an air component, logistical component, intelligence component, and then your shooters who are your Recon Marines.

Whenever we go into SOCOM, we SEALs have to get our air from the Army or the Air Force. Our intelligence comes from the 'big' Navy, though it should probably come from SOCOM. So we have to piece together our team, whereas the Marines can come with a fully integrated, battle-ready unit.

Also, every Marine is a shooter first, including their logistics guys and their intelligence guys. So if you have to have a pick-up, quick-reaction force, your logistics guys can be that. In fact, I actually witnessed their logistics guys - who are in charge of beans, bullets, and band-aids - actually jock-up and go out and conduct battle drills. I thought that was unique, because you'd be really hard-pressed to pull together a team of our logistics people and expect them to even shoot straight, except for the SeaBees. They are trained for that.

All Marines are trained to fight, so it really makes them a unique team. Marines also have a much more conventional mindset than SEALs and Green Berets, and we don't necessarily want to change that. The same is true of Army Rangers, they are first and foremost a conventional shock-troop unit.

SMITH: True, Rangers are basically a very good light infantry force.

DIVINE: Yes, and Marines are kind of like Rangers, except they have their own Marine air and intel. Marines also are Marines first, and they bring with them that culture, that drive, that loyalty, and everything that goes with being a Marine.

SMITH: What about rivalry and overlap?

DIVINE: You know we can't look at it as 'oh yeah, we've got Marines and they're going to take over the SEALs' role,' and it's the old Army-Navy and Navy-Marine Corps competition. It's just not true. There's plenty of work for everyone, and no one is going to touch the SEALs in certain areas we've mastered like subsurface warfare and direct action and some of those things that we're moving strong into.

Marines will have a certain role. They will be able to standup a special ops MAGTF and hit the ground running.

SMITH: What about perceptions? I know the Marines have had concerns, and I see in your report where some Navy officers and chief petty officers have voiced less-than enthusiastic opinions about the project.

DIVINE: Though there have been a politics in this - and those on both the Navy and Marine Corps side of the house hoping it would fail - the SEAL position has always been, the Marines deserve a seat at the table, but we don't want them to build it on our backs. It is too costly in terms of management, time, and energy. Also, there are those who are not thrilled at a personal level, but they recognize the importance of doing the right thing for the country.

Editor's conclusions: Will this Marine Corps unit become a reality? A few military leaders - primarily those from within the Corps - still have concerns, but according to Divine and others, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is leaning heavily towards it. Divine adds, the Marine SOCOM Detachment is still in the developmental stages, and though the unit will probably become a reality, no absolute decision has yet been made in that regard. Rumsfeld's signature is still pending.

Posted: 8/23/2005 8:51:58 PM EDT

[#1]

All your SOCOM are belong to us

We don't need your stinking SOCOM

Posted: 8/23/2005 8:52:32 PM EDT

[#2]

hey bravo here is another part of that story and the marines have given socom 2,500 marines

looks like on the 5th of june marines were playing hard to get that changed 11 days later when socom got their way.

socom marines

June 14, 2005: The U.S. Marine Corps has agreed to turn over a force of 2,500 specially trained marines to SOCOM (Special Operations Command.) Bowing to pressure from the Department of Defense, and SOCOM, the marines are the last of the services to make such a contribution. Created in 1987, SOCOM gained control over army Special Forces (including Civil Affairs, Psychological Warfare and special helicopter units), navy SEALs and air force commandoes and special aviation units. But the marines said they had nothing to offer.

The marine SOCOM force will consist of 400 marines trained to provide military instruction for foreign armed forces. This has long been a Special Forces chore, and will still be. But the addition of marine training troops will take some of the pressure off Special Forces to provide this service.

The marines will also provide over a thousand marines trained as "special operations-capable." The marines have been training some of their troops to be "special operations-capable" for over a decade. But SOCOM has different standards, and skill requirements. Once the "special operations-capable" marines are turned over to SOCOM control, SOCOM will provide additional training. As part of this deal, the SOCOM marines will be available for Marine Corps operations when SOCOM doesn’t need them. It’s likely that once SOCOM gets control of these marines, they will keep them busy indefinitely.

Finally, the marines will provide some support units. These will include stuff like dog handlers (and dogs trained for military tasks), some logistical units and an Air Naval Gunfire Liaison Company.

SOCOM will also keep control over Special Operations Detachment 1, a force of 86 marines trained as commandoes. SOCOM originally wanted as many as 4,000 marines, and the final deal may result in the marines giving up more than 2,500 troops.

June 5, 2005: The U.S. Marine Corps is playing hard to get during efforts to arrange marine participation in special operations work with SOCOM (Special Operations Command). Under pressure from the Department of Defense, the marines have put together a force of training teams for working with foreign armed forces. This relieves the U.S. Army Special Forces of this task. The marines have put together 24 teams, with 13 marines in each one.

When SOCOM was established in 1987, all the services were asked to subordinate their special operations forces to SOCOM. The marines were the only ones to refuse, partly on the grounds that they believed all their troops were elite, and partly because the only elite force (by marine standards) they had was Force Recon. But the marines could not give up Force Recon, as it was the strategic recon teams the marines used for their own operations. But, under pressure from SOCOM after September 11, 2001, the marines agreed to help out. First, the marines created Detachment One (DET1), an 86 man force of commandoes who worked with the SEALs. DET1 became operational in 2003. The marines already lose a few dozen high quality troops each year to U.S. Army Special Forces, Navy SEALs and air force special operations units. So it was felt that DET1 would reduce this somewhat.

Now SOCOM wants several battalions of marines made available to SOCOM, and the marines are resisting. The marines have noted that once a service lets units go to SOCOM, they never get them back. While SOCOM picks up a lot of the costs of the units they take control of, the service the troops came from still pays lots of the costs. The marines are pretty tenacious in these inter-service battles, and may yet win this one. The marines are willing to provide battalions to SOCOM, “as needed,” but with the understanding that these units go back to marine control once the mission is completed. Meanwhile, DET1 is still technically “being evaluated,” as the Department of Defense and the marines have yet to agree on the exact details of how these marine commandoes would work for SOCOM and the marines. This sort of prolonged negotiations are one reason SOCOM considers the marines “hard to work with.” The marines take that as a compliment.

Posted: 8/23/2005 9:01:20 PM EDT

[#3]

These guys have been running around Del Mar in Camp Pendleton. I hope it works for them.

Semper Fi,
RS

Posted: 8/23/2005 9:02:35 PM EDT

[#4]

The Marines & SOCOM seem to be a very good fit as far as I can see. Why they haven't been identified for the uniqueness they bring and the potential depth they can offer is surprising.

Looking forward to the Corps involvement in SOCOM....just makes sense.

Posted: 8/23/2005 9:13:13 PM EDT

[#5]

i wonder if a SPMAGTF goes into SOCOM, when they deploy but, back to Marine control after they complete the deployment? if this were to happen, many Marines would get great oppertunities that were not availible befor. with the end result being a more qualified Marine Corps fairly quickly if it were made a requirement that an infantry battalion must be able to fulfill SOCOM requirments

I think if we were to give up a meu sized element, we would have to wait untill the Marines orders are up to get them back into the fleet and get the next generration of Marines trained

just a thought, none the less this will defantly increase USMC capability one way or another

Posted: 8/23/2005 9:39:41 PM EDT

[#6]

Why don't we actually make SOCOM a service by itself, Army, Navy, USAF, Marines, and SOCOM. they will virtually be large enough for it if they pick up that many Marines.

Comming soon to a recuiting office near you the new SOCOM forces.

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:17:12 AM EDT

[#7]

or you could just fold specops into the marcor mission.

what the marcor could bring to socom is a war fighting capability rather than a narrow mission-specific capability.

the .mil is undergoing some interesting changes!

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:24:31 AM EDT

[#8]

And still no Raider Battalion? Color me disappointed.

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:27:23 AM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
And still no Raider Battalion? Color me disappointed.

Yeah, bring back the Raiders.

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:32:52 AM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
And still no Raider Battalion? Color me disappointed.

Yeah, bring back the Raiders.

They already brought back the 'flecktarn' camo and the 'suede' boots, so why not some historical units?

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:35:07 AM EDT

[#11]

A Marine I know has been attached to SOCOM for a couple years now. He shipped out to Iraq over a year ago.

Posted: 8/24/2005 4:37:32 AM EDT

[#12]

Guys,

How is SOCOM going to change what MEU (SOC) already has been doing?

Is it just a MEU (SOC) under SOCOM command that never rotates?

Posted: 8/24/2005 5:48:35 AM EDT

[#13]

DIVINE: I think it's nothing more than the way the Marines do business. They approach everything - from the way they do business in Washington to how they approach a peacetime program objective -- like it's a combat operation, and it's one of the reasons they are so darned successful.

Heh, awesome.

Yeah, and bring back the Raiders!

Posted: 8/24/2005 7:00:00 AM EDT

[#14]

Interesting read. I think it's a great idea.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - USMC and SOCOM

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