I’ve been wondering why the Israeli government was pulling out of the Gaza strip, perhaps this is an explanation.

From National Review online
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AUG. 18, 2005: THE SECRET OF GAZA
David Frum
http://frum.nationalreview.com/
My column for this week's Il Foglio:
The Secret of Gaza
Why is Ariel Sharon evacuating Gaza?
It is not because he believes that a decent Palestinian state will emerge after the Israelis withdraw. Nobody believes that. The almost universal consensus among experts on the region is that post-occupation Gaza will became a Mediterranean Somalia: an unstable failed state in which gangs compete for power and extremist Islam finds a sanctuary.
Nor was Sharon responding to international pressure. His plan for unilateral evacuation surprised and displeased the United States and the European countries. They wanted Sharon to negotiate with Abbas. They wanted the deal to involve all the Palestinian territories, not just Gaza. And they wanted the whole thing to happen very, very slowly.
Israel’s strategic situation did not force Sharon’s hand: Israel was more than capable of holding Gaza for years to come. Domestic public opinion is not the explanation: Sharon won Israel’s 2003 elections by ITAL opposing END ITAL a Gaza withdrawal.
So why, why, why?
Let me try a theory.
Israel is the victim of an organized international hypocrisy.
After the experience of the 1990s, few people retain an illusions about the likely character of any Palestinian state. The Palestinian leadership is corrupt through and through. The only effective opposition to that leadership is violent and extremist. Palestinian public opinion utterly rejects coexistence with Israel. A Palestinian state, whatever its borders, will wage terror war against Israel – and give sanctuary to Islamic extremists from around the world. It will murder Israelis and threaten the security of Europeans and Americans.
European and American political leaders recognize this depressing fact. But they also recognize that Palestine issue has excited passions throughout the Muslim world – and among Muslim minorities in the West. These leaders believe that if they want to quell Muslim extremism, they must be seen to work toward the creation of a Palestinian state.
In Charles Dickens’ novel David Copperfield there is a character who answers every request with a sigh: Ah, if it were up to him, he would of course say “yes” with pleasure – but his partner, Mr. Jorrocks,* is so very difficult ….. In just such a way, European and American political leaders favor a “peace process” that moves the Palestinians ever closer to statehood, without ever quite reaching it; a process that positions the Israelis as the Mr. Jorrocks of the world.
Ariel Sharon has decided to put an end to this play.
The world wants a Palestinian state? Very well – let them have it. And the result, as we are seeing, is something close to panic in the foreign ministries of the West. Not just the West: the Middle East too. The Egyptians do not want a Hamas state on their borders. They had expected Ariel Sharon to place a cordon between Egypt and Gaza. He has said he will not do so – that he is leaving the job up to the Egyptians. And indeed last month Israeli Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz announced that 750 Egyptian soldiers would soon arrive to replace the Israeli Defense Forces.
Is this Egyptian role on the border a precursor to a larger Egyptian role within Gaza? Egypt after all remains far more vulnerable to Islamic extremist ideology than Israel. The Egyptian authorities have crushed the extremist movement within their borders. Do they wish to see a jihadist state emerge on their borders? It seems unlikely.
Could it be that Sharon is calling the bluff of Western governments and the Arab states? By creating the very Palestinian state that those governments and those states pretend to want but actually dread – Sharon is forcing them to end their pretense and acknowledge the truth:
The Palestinian leadership is incapable of creating a state that can live at peace with anyone, not Israel, not the other Arab states, not Europe, not the world. Somebody else must govern the restless and violent Arab-majority territories west of the Jordan River. Israel has suffered four decades of condemnation for doing the job. Sharon is now resigning the task to anybody else who would like to step in and take over the job. Nobody wants to. But Egypt and Jordan may soon realize that they have no choice. If there is a secret behind Sharon’s plan – that is it.

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Whether or not Sharon had this in mind I think the effect will be as Frum suggests,   the world will see what a free Palestinian state is like.

Rich V

Maybe so.  But rule #1 of all governmennts must be "though shall not screw your own people".

Israel screwed it own people.  Sharon is a pig.

Quoted: Maybe so.  But rule #1 of all governmennts must be "though shall not screw your own people". Israel screwed it own people.  Sharon is a pig.

this can also apply to about 80% of our own presidents...

some were so crooked they had to screw their pants on in the morning.

Provided it all stays on the other side of the Atlantic I don't care what they do with the Gaza Strip.

They can't create a failed state.....when it was never successful to begin with.

Israel is pulling out because they know the palli's will screw up.  When they do screw up, Israel can blow them all to hell without anyone criticizing them.  

If the Pallies thought Israeli "occupation" was nasty, wait till they get a taste of the Egyptian response the first time a crew of Islamists strikes Cairo from Gaza.

Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now...

Gaza wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone.

Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone.

Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans.  Yasser Arafat created the idea of a "Palestinian" people/nation when he created the PLO in 1964. None existed previous to that.

Quoted: The world wants a Palestinian state? Very well – let them have it.

Be careful what you wish for, you may get it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans.

Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten.

I haven't forgotten, and neither have the Jews. Which is why they offered HALF the Knesset to the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") in 1948; even though they did not need to do so as Jordan (remember Jordan?) was created for the Arabs living in what the world, at the time called Palestine.   As we all know the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") refused.

So when you say the land was "stolen from the Palis" you're ignoring a whole lot of what went on. And, you've got your peoples wrong. lol

look, the world has already jumped out of the plane without a parachute, and a few delutional few think we can some how "fly" back to it.

I hate to sound all doom and gloom but unless some miracle from God happens this human race will extinguish itself  just as any other species that has come before us and disappeared.

if you don't believe in God then consider it "evolution" either way we are going away wether you want to believe it or not.

it's the natural course of life on this planet, accept it or not, it doesn't really matter, it's going to happen anyway.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten. I haven't forgotten, and neither have the Jews. Which is why they offered HALF the Knesset to the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") in 1948; even though they did not need to do so as Jordan (remember Jordan?) was created for the Arabs living in what the world, at the time called Palestine.   As we all know the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") refused. So when you say the land was "stolen from the Palis" you're ignoring a whole lot of what went on. And, you've got your peoples wrong. lol

I thought everyone here thought an arab was an arab was an arab

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten. I haven't forgotten, and neither have the Jews. Which is why they offered HALF the Knesset to the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") in 1948; even though they did not need to do so as Jordan (remember Jordan?) was created for the Arabs living in what the world, at the time called Palestine.   As we all know the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") refused. So when you say the land was "stolen from the Palis" you're ignoring a whole lot of what went on. And, you've got your peoples wrong. lol I thought everyone here thought an arab was an arab was an arab

Nope. Some of us actually have an education and have been to/lived in the ME.

Quoted: Maybe so.  But rule #1 of all governmennts must be "though shall not screw your own people". Israel screwed it own people.  Sharon is a pig.

Fear not, they'll be back.  I think Sharon's calling everyone's bluff, including the Palestinians.  Some of their "leaders" have already said this is but the first step toward the destruction of Israel.  The Egyptians will reclaim Gaza for themselves, not for their "Palestinian brothers".

It occurs to me that most of those Jewish settlements were self-supporting, for the most part.  How long until we hear cries from the Palestinians that they are living in poverty conditions, illness and famine rampant?  They're not much progressed beyond animals.  Very few, probably, really think this is going to solve anything.

To be honest, I could care less and feel israel and palestine should handle their own shit. we should stay out of it and take care of our own. Screw africa as well and southamerica. If a country can not give us equal or more in return they don't deserve our help.

Quoted: look, the world has already jumped out of the plane without a parachute, and a few delutional few think we can some how "fly" back to it. I hate to sound all doom and gloom but unless some miracle from God happens this human race will extinguish itself  just as any other species that has come before us and disappeared. if you don't believe in God then consider it "evolution" either way we are going away wether you want to believe it or not. it's the natural course of life on this planet, accept it or not, it doesn't really matter, it's going to happen anyway.

that is the most screwed up thing i have read all day.
the earth is getting better every day not worse.
sure we have a lot of crack pots but by and large most people can and do live together in peace.

There are Arabs in the Knesset. Yemen threw all of its Jews out. There are tons of Arabs living in Israel, including Jerusalem, but almost no Jews remain in the Arab countries where there were once thriving Jewish communities. It isn't Israel that opposes intermingling.

BTW glockguy, you need to do some reading. There weren't any "Palestinians" before about 1967. Gaza was not taken from Palestinians. It was taken from Egypt. There has never been a Palestinian state. The "Green Line" was never a border, despite your suggestion that following it is somehow the test of legitimacy. It was the cease-fire line after the 1948 war, when Israel was attacked from all sides immediately upon its declaration of existence. The Jordanians held the eastern part of the Old City. They did not allow Jews to pray at the Wailing Wall. When Israel captured the West Bank and Gaza in the 1967 war, which started when Israel pre-emptively struck at Arab armies massed on all its borders in preparation for an attack already announced by Arab leaders, it gained control of the Wailing Wall and Temple Mount. Israel did not exclude Muslims from the mosques on the Temple Mount (which were only there because of earlier conquest by Muslims, but that - being a fact - is probably of no interest to you) but actually gave control of the Mount to Muslim clerics.

The PLO, which was the predecessor to the present Palestinian government, dedicated itself in its charter to the destruction of Israel and the recapture of stolen Palestinian land. The charter was written in 1964 3 years before the capture of the West Bank and Gaza.

The Palestinian narrative is a sham, and it's one you seem to have fallen for.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten. I haven't forgotten, and neither have the Jews. Which is why they offered HALF the Knesset to the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") in 1948; even though they did not need to do so as Jordan (remember Jordan?) was created for the Arabs living in what the world, at the time called Palestine.   As we all know the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") refused. So when you say the land was "stolen from the Palis" you're ignoring a whole lot of what went on. And, you've got your peoples wrong. lol I thought everyone here thought an arab was an arab was an arab Nope. Some of us actually have an education and have been to/lived in the ME.

Its true that the Palis have gotten just as raw of a deal from the Arab states as they have from israel itself.

However, they should get their state with pre-67 borders.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... it wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone. Dig in the sand, you find Jewish artifacts, not "Palestinian." Unless you count twenty year old empty soup cans. Muslims and Jews lived side by side in the holy land for centuries together, or have you forgotten. I haven't forgotten, and neither have the Jews. Which is why they offered HALF the Knesset to the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") in 1948; even though they did not need to do so as Jordan (remember Jordan?) was created for the Arabs living in what the world, at the time called Palestine.   As we all know the Arabs (not the "Palestinians") refused. So when you say the land was "stolen from the Palis" you're ignoring a whole lot of what went on. And, you've got your peoples wrong. lol I thought everyone here thought an arab was an arab was an arab Nope. Some of us actually have an education and have been to/lived in the ME. Its true that the Palis have gotten just as raw of a deal from the Arab states as they have from israel itself. However, they should get their state with pre-67 borders.

Why?  Why create a "state" whose only function is to make war on it's neighbor?  

cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves.

Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves.

That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war.  In the mean time, watch some Palestinian Authority television.

From the page, click on the second drop down entitled "Show all TV stations." Select "Palestinian Authority TV."

MEMRI TV

Pop some popcorn and enjoy....if you can.

Think they like Americans any more than the Israelis? Not so much.

Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war.

so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel????

Quoted: The Palestinian narrative is a sham, and it's one you seem to have fallen for.

Unfortunately it is one of the best B.S. marketing campaigns ever devised and executed.  A great many idiots have bought the Palestinian bill of goods.  Unfortunately a great many of those idiots are in positions of influence.

I think the pullout was brilliant

The Palys and the "peace activists" have been screaming about the Gaza "occupation" for years, and that this was the reason for all the violence.

So let them have it.

Of course, we ALL know that the violence will continue anyway. As long as Isreal exists there will be violence with the goal of genocide. What the pullout allowes is this: Isreal can now say, when the bombs hit again, "HEY! We gave you what you want?! WTF?!"  And then start screaming about how the Palys stabbed them in the back.

Then the IDF will be sent forth to kick some radical Paley ass. I see this as the setting up of an excuse for a major beatdown. Isreal is tired of this shit, but in today's political world you can't just kick somebody's ass for, you know, killing your people. Land and shit has to come into it I guess.


Oh, and imo, if the Arabs/Egyptians/Paleys/whoever wanted Gaza, they shouldn't have lost a fucking war. I think the IDF will take it back after the next round of Paley inspired violence.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the sate of israel????

Very few. The principle exodus of Arabs came when the Arab states asked them to leave so that the Arab armies could operate without fear of harming Arabs when they attacked the Jews.

Let me ask you this: If the present borders are illegitimate, how can the pre-'67 borders, which were also established by force of arms, be any better?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel????

No actually Israel told the Arabs fleeing the 1948 war to remain in their homes where they'd be safe. It was Syria, Jordan, and Egypt who told them to flee. And they did. And then they were roundly ignored by the Arab states who didn't want them in the first place.

Go back to my post on the first page and watch PATV...it's scary stuff.

Quoted: Quoted: all i know is this is a bad move, the land belongs to Israel and we should support whatever they do to clean up the vermon who live there, the pali's need to leave and leave now... Gaza wasnt israel's land to start with. That land was stolen from the Palis. Just like the "security fence" is a land grab that extends way pass the bounderies of the green zone.

Good grief.  In order to steal something from someone, they must own it first.  Do a little research before you expose your true feelings.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the sate of israel???? Very few. The principle exodus of Arabs came when the Arab states asked them to leave so that the Arab armies could operate without fear of harming Arabs when they attacked the Jews. Let me ask you this: If the present borders are illegitimate, how can the pre-'67 borders, which were also established by force of arms, be any better?

Because it is the least the palis are willing to accept. If they are willing to accept that... who am I to say otherwise. It is their land they are giving up not mine .

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel???? No actually Israel told the Arabs fleeing the 1948 war to remain in their homes where they'd be safe. It was Syria, Jordan, and Egypt who told them to flee. And they did. And then they were roundly ignored by the Arab states who didn't want them in the first place. Go back to my post on the first page and watch PATV...it's scary stuff.

From what I understand, they were forced out of their villages through intimidation from the Israeli army.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel????

Ah, getting warmer.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel???? No actually Israel told the Arabs fleeing the 1948 war to remain in their homes where they'd be safe. It was Syria, Jordan, and Egypt who told them to flee. And they did. And then they were roundly ignored by the Arab states who didn't want them in the first place. Go back to my post on the first page and watch PATV...it's scary stuff. From what I understand, they were forced out of their villages through intimidation from the Israeli army.

You understand incorrectly.  The Israeli Army, at the time, 1948, was VERY limited in it's ability to wage war.  they didn't have time to intmidate civilians with armies from five nations pouring over their borders.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: cuz the neighbor evicted the previous tenent without cause other than they wanted their apartment for themselves. That isn't what happened, you might want to do a little reading on the 1967 war. so you saying none of the people seeking the right of return was actually evicted from their homes by the zionist who made the state of israel???? Ah, getting warmer.

umm... correct me if I am wrong... zionism was the founding ideology for the creation of a jewish state. I was watching BBC the other day, and Ehud Barak was on tv talking about zionism and how israel was founded on zionism etc etc.

It wasnt meant in a negative conotation... but then again.... I see how you love to pull out the anti-semetic card to try to discredit someone LarryG... you do it anytime someone doesnt agree with your point of view on these types of threads.

You have no rational arguments, so you resort to strawman arguments and Ad Hominem attacks.

Quoted: Israel is pulling out because they know the palli's will screw up.  When they do screw up, Israel can blow them all to hell without anyone criticizing them.

BINGO!  Once they're in one place, you know where to find them.

Palestinians are nothing more than the rejects from Egypt, Syria, Lebanon and Jordan.  Those countries are supportive of their "cause" as long as said cause is on someone else's property.  They couldn't have given two shits about those people until the Israelis kicked their collective asses.  I suspect they figured the Palestinian angle was their only hope of getting the land back that Israel gained.   They were the aggressors and they lost.  They also knew they'd lose if they tried again.  They played up the Palestinian angle (not so different from "for the children") and it stuck.  Hasn't gotten their land back, yet, but it worked well enough to take the heat off of them.

I grabbed this from the masada2000.org site, I'm sure Rocky won't mind. He wrote it more concisely than I ever could.

WHO ARE THE PALESTINIANS?
WHAT & WHERE is PALESTINE?

Please Note: The terms B.C. (Before Christ or Before the Christian Era) and A.D.("Anno Domini" Latin for "In the Year of Our Lord") have been replaced with B.C.E (Before Common, or Christian, Era) and  C.E. (Common, or Christian, Era) so as to respect all visitors to this site. The terms are interchangeable and both are based upon the Gregorian Calendar.


 These and other questions will be addressed more fully as you go through this website. However, there is a preliminary historical fact that must be established now.  There has never been a civilization or a nation referred to as "Palestine" and the very notion of a "Palestinian Arab nation" having ancient attachments to the Holy Land going back to time immemorial is one of the biggest hoaxes ever perpetrated upon the world! There is not, nor has there ever been, a distinct "Palestinian" culture or language. Further, there has never been a Palestinian state governed BY Arab Palestinians in history, nor was there ever a serious Arab-Palestinian national movement until 1964... three years BEFORE the Arabs of "Palestine" lost the West Bank [Judea and Samaria] and Gaza  as a result of the 1967 Six-Day War (which the Arabs started). Even the so-called leader of the "Palestinian" people, Yasser Arafat, is EGYPTIAN! In short, the so-called Arab "Palestinians" are a manufactured people...a people with no history and no authenticity... whose sole purpose for existence is to destroy the Jewish State!

 Israel first became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam! Seven hundred and twenty-six years later in 586 B.C.E.  these first ancient Jews in the Land of Israel [Judea] were overrun and Israel's First Jewish Temple (on Jerusalem's Old City Temple Mount) was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, king of ancient Babylon. Many of the Jews were killed or expelled; however many were allowed to remain.  These Jews along with their progeny and other Jews who would resettle over the next 500 years, rebuilt the Nation of Israel  and also a Second Temple in Jerusalem upon the Temple Mount. Thus the claim that Jews suddenly appeared fifty years ago right after the Holocaust and drove out the  Arabs is preposterous!  

 Then in 70 C.E. (nearly 2000 years ago), it was the Roman Empire's turn to march through ancient Israel and destroy the SECOND Jewish Temple, slaughtering or driving out much of its Jewish population.  Many Jews left on their own because conditions for life were made unbearable in many respects... yet thousands upon thousands stayed and rebelled on for centuries in order to once again rebuild a Jewish Nation in this Holy Land.

 Over 3250 years, various Peoples, Religions and Empires marched through Jerusalem, Israel's ancient capital. The region was successively ruled by the Hebrews [Jews], Assyrians, Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Maccabeans, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Egyptians, the Crusaders, Mamelukes, the Turks (who indifferently governed the backward, neglected territory from the 16th century until the British drove them out during World War I) and then once again by the Jews in 1948.  None bothered, nor were they in the least bit inclined, to build a Nation of their own... EXCEPT the Jews!  

 It must be noted that in 636 C.E., when the Arabs marauders came to the land and uprooted even more of its Jews, they did not form any Arab nation there... and certainly not a "Palestinian" nation.  They were simply "Arabs" who, as did others before them, moved into a geo-political area called "Palestine!"  And remember this one fact... it was not the Jews who "usurped" (a favorite word from the Arab propagandists) the land from the Arabs. If anything, it was the Arabs in 636 C.E. who overran and stole it from the Jews!

In Conclusion:

 No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born!  The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The coins, the pottery, the cities, the pottery, the ancient texts... all support this claim. Yes, other peoples have passed through, but there is no mistaking the fact that Jews have always had a continual presence in that land for over 3,000 years. This predates and certain dwarfs any claims that other peoples in the regions may have. The ancient Philistines are extinct. Many other ancient peoples are extinct. They do not have the unbroken line to this date that the Jews have. And if you want to talk religion, fine.  G-d GAVE the Land of Israel to the Jewish People. And G-d does nothing by accident!

And I have no problem with the fact that the jewish people want to live in their homeland.

What I have a problem with is the creation of a solely jewish state. Why, instead of creating a solely jewish state (tho some arabs still live in Israel) could it not have been a muslim/jewish state where they lived together as neighbors as they did for the many centuries that proceeded us. Jews were actually protected by muslims at a certain point in their history... and there was no bad blood. They co-existed peacefully. Why is the vision of Zionism to exclude people on the basis of their religion???

In the end... this is for the palis and the Israelis to work out, but can someone explain this to me?

You said that in 1948 israel made the Arabs an offer, but that was only after the engaged in a war with them. Why couldnt jews have peacefully migrated back to the homeland, took up residence, and lived peacefully?

Quoted: And I have no problem with the fact that the jewish people want to live in their homeland. What I have a problem with is the creation of a solely jewish state. Why, instead of creating a solely jewish state (tho some arabs still live in Israel) could it not have been a muslim/jewish state where they lived together as neighbors as they did for the many centuries that proceeded us. Jews were actually protected by muslims at a certain point in their history... and there was no bad blood. They co-existed peacefully. Why is the vision of Zionism to exclude people on the basis of their religion??? In the end... this is for the palis and the Israelis to work out, but can someone explain this to me? You said that in 1948 israel made the Arabs an offer, but that was only after the engaged in a war with them. Why couldnt jews have peacefully migrated back to the homeland, took up residence, and lived peacefully?

They did, migrate back, for centuries.  And were periodically attacked by their neighbors. Islamist terror didn't start in 1948.

Go to these sites....they'll give you a lot more information.

Jewish Virtual Library click the History tab.
Masada 2000 Beware....it's sometimes VERY graphic.

Quoted: And I have no problem with the fact that the jewish people want to live in their homeland. What I have a problem with is the creation of a solely jewish state. Why, instead of creating a solely jewish state (tho some arabs still live in Israel) could it not have been a muslim/jewish state where they lived together as neighbors as they did for the many centuries that proceeded us. Jews were actually protected by muslims at a certain point in their history... and there was no bad blood. They co-existed peacefully. Why is the vision of Zionism to exclude people on the basis of their religion???

There is a significant population (1/5th of the country) of Arabs inside the state of Israel. Israeli leaders do not now, nor have they ever, called for a state free of any Arab presence. Those Arabs living in Israel have full citizenship rights and the power of the vote.

Zionism is NOT about having a purely Jewish state, but is rather about having a Jewish state in the first place, which the terrorist bastards like Arafat object to in the first place.

Now if we look at the Arab neighbors, however, you will NOT see such benevolence. They voilently expel or subjugate Jews.

I don't know where you got the idea that Jews want to be rid of all Arabs (as indeed there are some Arabs inside Israel that live peacefully with their Jewish neighbors) but it sounds to me like you have been listening to liberal propoganda.

Israel cannot live in peace with the Palestinians because the palestinians refuse to live in peace with Israel. Arafat was nothing more than a terrorist thug who did what all terrorist thugs from the middle east do: Use Islam as a means to amass personal wealth and power, meanwhile poisoning the minds of all they can to become sacrifices so they can sit in luxury. Arafat died a BILLIONARE. How exactly did he pull that off??

Why is it that the world poured billions in aid money into the Palestinians, and yet their plight has not improved?

Arafat and his thugs.

In the end... this is for the palis and the Israelis to work out, but can someone explain this to me? You said that in 1948 israel made the Arabs an offer, but that was only after the engaged in a war with them. Why couldnt jews have peacefully migrated back to the homeland, took up residence, and lived peacefully?

Jews came to Israel from all over the world because they were a little tired of being rounded up and killed in death camps by Hitler and Stalin and those of their ilk. They came back to the land that we KNOW is theirs, and they became a sovereign state because it is the only way they could be protected against actions of future Hitler wannabes.

The arabs in the region didn't like the idea of a Jewish state, so they decided to exterminate the Jews. They shipped in thousands of undesirables from their own countries to make some absurd claim of ownership, and when that didn't work they rolled in their militaries to destroy Israel.

Without a formal army of their own, with scrounged weapons, hardly any tanks, planes, bombs, or anything of that nature, Israel prevailed over the Arab armies and won by combat their right to exist.

Everything they have they have EARNED.

You need to stop buying the commie BS the liberal media spews and look at some history.

Quoted: Quoted: And I have no problem with the fact that the jewish people want to live in their homeland. What I have a problem with is the creation of a solely jewish state. Why, instead of creating a solely jewish state (tho some arabs still live in Israel) could it not have been a muslim/jewish state where they lived together as neighbors as they did for the many centuries that proceeded us. Jews were actually protected by muslims at a certain point in their history... and there was no bad blood. They co-existed peacefully. Why is the vision of Zionism to exclude people on the basis of their religion??? In the end... this is for the palis and the Israelis to work out, but can someone explain this to me? You said that in 1948 israel made the Arabs an offer, but that was only after the engaged in a war with them. Why couldnt jews have peacefully migrated back to the homeland, took up residence, and lived peacefully? They did, migrate back, for centuries.  And were periodically attacked by their neighbors. Islamist terror didn't start in 1948. Go to these sites....they'll give you a lot more information. Jewish Virtual Library Masada 2000

Some how I dont think I will get totally impartial info from those sites. LOL

I think I will try this book instead.

Quoted: Quoted: And I have no problem with the fact that the jewish people want to live in their homeland. What I have a problem with is the creation of a solely jewish state. Why, instead of creating a solely jewish state (tho some arabs still live in Israel) could it not have been a muslim/jewish state where they lived together as neighbors as they did for the many centuries that proceeded us. Jews were actually protected by muslims at a certain point in their history... and there was no bad blood. They co-existed peacefully. Why is the vision of Zionism to exclude people on the basis of their religion??? There is a significant population (1/5th of the country) of Arabs inside the state of Israel. Israeli leaders do not now, nor have they ever, called for a state free of any Arab presence. Those Arabs living in Israel have full citizenship rights and the power of the vote. Zionism is NOT about having a purely Jewish state, but is rather about having a Jewish state in the first place, which the terrorist bastards like Arafat object to in the first place. Now if we look at the Arab neighbors, however, you will NOT see such benevolence. They voilently expel or subjugate Jews. I don't know where you got the idea that Jews want to be rid of all Arabs (as indeed there are some Arabs inside Israel that live peacefully with their Jewish neighbors) but it sounds to me like you have been listening to liberal propoganda. Israel cannot live in peace with the Palestinians because the palestinians refuse to live in peace with Israel. Arafat was nothing more than a terrorist thug who did what all terrorist thugs from the middle east do: Use Islam as a means to amass personal wealth and power, meanwhile poisoning the minds of all they can to become sacrifices so they can sit in luxury. Arafat died a BILLIONARE. How exactly did he pull that off?? Why is it that the world poured billions in aid money into the Palestinians, and yet their plight has not improved? Arafat and his thugs. In the end... this is for the palis and the Israelis to work out, but can someone explain this to me? You said that in 1948 israel made the Arabs an offer, but that was only after the engaged in a war with them. Why couldnt jews have peacefully migrated back to the homeland, took up residence, and lived peacefully? Jews came to Israel from all over the world because they were a little tired of being rounded up and killed in death camps by Hitler and Stalin and those of their ilk. They came back to the land that we KNOW is theirs, and they became a sovereign state because it is the only way they could be protected against actions of future Hitler wannabes. The arabs in the region didn't like the idea of a Jewish state, so they decided to exterminate the Jews. They shipped in thousands of undesirables from their own countries to make some absurd claim of ownership, and when that didn't work they rolled in their militaries to destroy Israel. Without a formal army of their own, with scrounged weapons, hardly any tanks, planes, bombs, or anything of that nature, Israel prevailed over the Arab armies and won by combat their right to exist. Everything they have they have EARNED. You need to stop buying the commie BS the liberal media spews and look at some history.

I have... and what I being told here sounds like a snow job compared to what I have read from unbiased sources.

Quoted: Some how I dont think I will get totally impartial info from those sites. LOL I think I will try this book instead.

that book is terribly biased against israel, just as you clearly are.  it looks like you are just trolling, trying to provoke other members.  

Quoted: I have... and what I being told here sounds like a snow job compared to what I have read from unbiased sources.

Yeah.

Sure.

Most of the liberal loons with PHDs on this bloody campus are "unbiased" sources too. As are the reporters in the national media. And the crooks at the UN.

All very "unbiased".

Revisionist history is their stock in trade. If you can't see that.....

Quoted: Quoted: Some how I dont think I will get totally impartial info from those sites. LOL I think I will try this book instead. that book is terribly biased against israel, just as you clearly are.  it looks like you are just trolling, trying to provoke other members.

LOL... you are posting from israel and you are calling me biased????

Quoted: Quoted: I have... and what I being told here sounds like a snow job compared to what I have read from unbiased sources. Yeah. Sure. Most of the liberal loons with PHDs on this bloody campus are "unbiased" sources too. As are the reporters in the national media. And the crooks at the UN. All very "unbiased". Revisionist history is their stock in trade. If you can't see that.....

LOL... yea... I guess bs doesnt flow in the opposite direction too right. Remember, history is written by the winners in war.

yes I am.  While I may not like the Palestinians, at least I take the time to learn what actually happened in the history of my country.  I may not be a proponent of an Palestinan state, but I can have a discussion without refering to radical opinions- whether they be right or ,as in your case, left.  
You say that we should go back to pre-67 borders and give the palestinians a state; if we went bakc to pre-67, then they still would not have a state, but Jordan, Egypt, and Syria would simply be larger.  Things like that annoy me, offering up glib suggestion of what we should do, without even realizing that they are inane and do not offer any help whatsoever regarding the palestinian problem.

Quoted: yes I am.  While I may not like the Palestinians, at least I take the time to learn what actually happened in the history of my country.  I may not be a proponent of an Palestinan state, but I can have a discussion without refering to radical opinions- whether they be right or ,as in your case, left.   You say that we should go back to pre-67 borders and give the palestinians a state; if we went bakc to pre-67, then they still would not have a state, but Jordan, Egypt, and Syria would simply be larger.  Things like that annoy me, offering up glib suggestion of what we should do, without even realizing that they are inane and do not offer any help whatsoever regarding the palestinian problem.

that's because your idea of solving the palestinian problem probably involves a good ethnic cleansing.

Gentlemen

Please do not start personal attacks, I don’t want this thread locked.
If you must criticize each other TAKE IT TO THE PIT
Please

Rich V

that's because your idea of solving the palestinian problem probably involves a good ethnic cleansing.

Um, where did he say that?

Wow dude you have serious issues.