I watched all day yesterday and this morning the Israeli police and military forcing the Israelis out of Gaza.  Many of the police and military actually had tears in their eyes as they were enforcing orders that they may not have agreed with but had the duty to comply.

It has been discussed many times here how rank and file police officers in our own country would react to being given an order regarding gun confiscations.  Many have said that they just wouldn't enforce an unconstitutional order but the happenings in Gaza really make me wonder

They'd do it.  And it would hurt you a lot more than it would hurt them, tears and BS notwithstanding.

There aint nothin to wonder about.  They would obey the order or any number of willing people would replace them.  The dreamworld, "American soldiers or police would never do that" is just that.... la la land bullshit.

And that is why the NRA is a non-government organization.

Go NRA go, put pressure on those pinheaded politicians!

I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us.

Now the cops OTOH (with few a exceptions) I can see happening without question.  Hell, even if the rank and file cop on the beat said "fuck it", nearly every "alphabet agency" in FedGov has a heavily armed SWAT-like organization.  THOSE are the ones that would be showing up on your front porch if push came to shove.

Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us.

You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist.

Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist.

I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony..........

Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist.

You may be right.  I just can't quite let go of the notion that our current crop of men and women in uniform could do such a thing.  I can think of few things that would spark a Civil War faster than having a standing army turn on it's own people.

There was a reason the Founding Fathers were terrified of a standing army.

they are already enforcing unconstitutional laws here. to believe that there is some point that the police will say, "...oh, no, i won't do that. that's too unconstitutional..." is rediculous.

Who cares?  THe smart ones were paid and the resisting squaters are all a bunch of religious fanatics.  The Gaza has never belonged to Israel nor the Palestinians, even in biblical times.  If they want to live there are shoot and kill eachother, fine by me, its been a waste of our time and money though.

Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD.

FN-TPS

Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. Their belief system is centered around destroying the mosques on the temple mount and rebuilding the Great Jewish Temple, combined with a sort of battle of Armageddon death wish, that their efforts will trigger the final apocalyptic battle between the Arab world and Judaism. The great majority of Isaeli's veiw the Kahanist's as extremists of the worst sort and the fact that they launched an aborted plot to truck bomb an Arab girls school, a couple of years ago, has not really endeared these guys to a lot of people. Nothing the Israeli Government could possibly do, short of the immediate Nuking of Cairo, Damascus and Tehran, would ever be enough to appease the religious death wish of the Kahanists. They are to a man, every bit as religiously fanatical and filled with terroristic hatered, as any madras schooled, Al Qaeda iman. As I said before, I like the Israeli's, But I'd be careful, before I hitched my star to the Idea, that the Evil Israeli JBT's, are picking on the poor settlers. To do so, would be trying to veiw, an entire religion, though an over simplified, Americanized lens, that some here, would use, simply to justify their own American anti-government sentiments. Trust me guys, every event in the world, does not relate to Waco or Ruby Ridge and some of you, look entirely to hard, for examples of JBT's doing evil. Waco was bad shit, but since we have not had anouther Mount Carmel, in the last decade, it seem's like, some of you, have to invent JBT incidents, just so you'll have, something to fuel your Anti-government veiws, or just for something, to talk about in the forums. When you run out of JBT conspiracies, here in the States, you seem to start desprately, trying to fit events overseas into the Waco mold.... and it does not always translate, real well

Don't confuse Isreal with the United States.

Quoted: Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD. FN-TPS Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. Their belief system is centered around destroying the mosques on the temple mount and rebuilding the Great Jewish Temple, combined with a sort of battle of Armageddon death wish, that their efforts will trigger the final apocalyptic battle between the Arab world and Judaism. The great majority of Isaeli's veiw the Kahanist's as extremists of the worst sort and the fact that they launched an aborted plot to truck bomb an Arab girls school, a couple of years ago, has not really endeared these guys to a lot of people. Nothing the Israeli Government could possibly do, short of the immediate Nuking of Cairo, Damascus and Tehran, would ever be enough to appease the religious death wish of the Kahanists. They are to a man, every bit as religiously fanatical and filled with terroristic hatered, as any madras schooled, Al Qaeda iman. As I said before, I like the Israeli's, But I'd be careful, before I hitched my star to the Idea, that the Evil Israeli JBT's, are picking on the poor settlers. To do so, would be trying to veiw, an entire religion, though an over simplified, Americanized lens, that some here, would use, simply to justify their own American anti-government sentiments. Trust me guys, every event in the world, does not relate to Waco or Ruby Ridge and some of you, look entirely to hard, for examples of JBT's doing evil. Waco was bad shit, but since we have not had anouther Mount Carmel, in the last decade, it seem's like, some of you, have to invent JBT incidents, just so you'll have, something to fuel your Anti-government veiws, or just for something, to talk about in the forums. When you run out of JBT conspiracies, here in the States, you seem to start desprately, trying to fit events overseas into the Waco mold.... and it does not always translate, real well

Are you under the impression that when the day comes to round something up that the people holding on will not be called extreamists, fanatics, fringe groups, terrorists, seperatists, radicals?  Please....   Who they are or what they believe has very little to do with dragging a family from a home the .gov wanted them to make.

Ok, so if I'm wrong.... please name an unconstitutional gun law that has been resisted by law enforcement on an effective scale.  It seems to me the military angle has already been answered in the 1860's.

Our armed forces would never turn on our citizens. We feel obligated to the people, not some dirty politician.

Isreal is very different. Gaza is a retreat. You can see the defeat in the faces of all of the Isrealis involved, soldiers and citizens alike. They are a people that are dragged back and forth by cowardly leaders constantly, so they're used to it.

Isreal needs to wipe "Palestine" from the face of the earth if they ever hope to live in a life without fear of being killed constantly by the scumbags.

Quoted: Are you under the impression that when the day comes to round something up that the people holding on will not be called extreamists, fanatics, fringe groups, terrorists, seperatists, radicals?  Please....   Who they are or what they believe has very little to do with dragging a family from a home the .gov wanted them to make.

This is so true.  Every election we hear about the radical gun lobby and we are constantly bombarded with ravings about the NRA being a fanatical lobbying group.  All this despite the fact that the NRA is nothing more than a consortium of millions of Americans banded together to protect a right which our founding fathers stated should never be taken away

Quoted: They'd do it.  And it would hurt you a lot more than it would hurt them, tears and BS notwithstanding.

+1  

Gruntled

Are you under the impression that when the day comes to round something up that the people holding on will not be called extreamists, fanatics, fringe groups, terrorists, seperatists, radicals? Please.... Who they are or what they believe has very little to do with dragging a family from a home the .gov wanted them to make.

No...What I'm saying is. Not every issue or event in the world, translates well to the Gun Rights Issue, nor can they be easily explained within the confines of The Federealist Papers.

What I'm saying is, that some of you may have become political one trick ponies.

Remember the old saying "if the only tool in your tool kit is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails"? Well,  If the only lens, you have to look at world events though, is the Federalist Papers, or anti-government views, then all of the worlds problems, begin to look like Black Helicopters and UN Conspiracies.

Even, if the world event does not fit, the preordained Waco mold. Some of you out there, seem intent on pounding it in, till it fits, with your oversimplified, single issue hammer.

Quoted: Gruntled Are you under the impression that when the day comes to round something up that the people holding on will not be called extreamists, fanatics, fringe groups, terrorists, seperatists, radicals? Please.... Who they are or what they believe has very little to do with dragging a family from a home the .gov wanted them to make. No...What I'm saying is. Not every issue or event in the world, translates well to the Gun Rights Issue, nor can they be easily explained within the confines of The Federealist Papers. What I'm saying is, that some of you may have become political one trick ponies. Remember the old saying "if the only tool in your tool kit is a hammer, all of your problems begin to look like nails"? Well,  If the only lens, you have to look at world events though, is the Federalist Papers, or anti-government views, then all of the worlds problems, begin to look like Black Helicopters and UN Conspiracies. Even, if the world event does not fit, the preordained Waco mold. Some of you out there, seem intent on pounding it in, till it fits, with your oversimplified, single issue hammer.

I, at least, have not said that.  The simple fact is that armed forces (whatever the uniform they wear) as a whole tend to do as instructed by the government they work for.  It's exceedingly difficult for me to believe we have the only army in the world that would turn in its arms and walk away if the government ordered it to secure the compliance of a group of "extreamists".  That is all I'm saying.  Men are mostly made of the same stuff all over the world.  All over the world a large number of them manage to put it aside and do what they were told to do.

Doesn't Israel have cops?  For this subtle cop bashing thread to succeed, shouldn't those be cops dragging the Jews out of the Gaza strip instead of the military, to make this tin foil analogy fit?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist. I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony..........

Ahem!
And exakitically how are they any different from anyone else; gun owners for instance.  How many gun owners would back up their "from my cold dead hands" bullshit?

Quoted: Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD. FN-TPS Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. Their belief system is centered around destroying the mosques on the temple mount and rebuilding the Great Jewish Temple, combined with a sort of battle of Armageddon death wish, that their efforts will trigger the final apocalyptic battle between the Arab world and Judaism.

No.  Now, if our govt. decided to give back Arizona, Texas, etc. back to Mexico and the people living there said "hell no!" that would be a better analogy.  Because you know we have all these racist folks who want to kill Mexicans and they have some sort of Armageddon death wish! Why else would they go PATROL the border? OMG! OMG! Those pigs!  We should give the land back to it's rightful owners, the peaceful Mexicanos.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist. I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony.......... Ahem! And exakitically how are they any different from anyone else; gun owners for instance.  How many gun owners would back up their "from my cold dead hands" bullshit?

A few, already have.........

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist. I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony.......... Ahem! And exakitically how are they any different from anyone else; gun owners for instance.  How many gun owners would back up their "from my cold dead hands" bullshit? A few, already have.........

Yup, a few; and now they're dead.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist. I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony.......... Ahem! And exakitically how are they any different from anyone else; gun owners for instance.  How many gun owners would back up their "from my cold dead hands" bullshit? A few, already have.........

Turned out well for them didn't it

Didnt people think that of Hitler and his asshats too?

The one thing the whole gaza debacle makes me think about is how lucky Israel is to be a true nation state ("occupied" territories notwithstanding). The Israelis are truely a united people. They are deeply divided on an issue that is extremely important to most of them and they are willing to fight for it...however....both sides seem to be doing everything possible to make sure no Israelis are seriously injured or killed in the course of this dispute. They are one people and they know who their real enemies are.

This said, I am of course not bashing the United States for not being a nation state,  something it never was or could be.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. You think those Israeli soldiers are any less emotional about what they have been told to do?  They are not taking an item from someones home.  They are taking their HOME.  Still there they are.... doing it.  Make no mistake.  If asked to do it, the US Military would say "Yes sir".  A smidgeon might not, some might feel bad, many wouldn't give a shit, most would not take a court martial or loss of a job to resist. I believe you are correct. Most will not pay the price to back up their words........Like the politicians, who's oaths last as long as the ceremony.......... Ahem! And exakitically how are they any different from anyone else; gun owners for instance.  How many gun owners would back up their "from my cold dead hands" bullshit? A few, already have......... Turned out well for them didn't it

So, giving your life for the Constitution is somehow foolish???

You certainly are up to your usual form........


Frist/Rice.................

A coupla real conservatives ya got there...........

Quoted: Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD. FN-TPS Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. Their belief system is centered around destroying the mosques on the temple mount and rebuilding the Great Jewish Temple, combined with a sort of battle of Armageddon death wish, that their efforts will trigger the final apocalyptic battle between the Arab world and Judaism. The great majority of Isaeli's veiw the Kahanist's as extremists of the worst sort and the fact that they launched an aborted plot to truck bomb an Arab girls school, a couple of years ago, has not really endeared these guys to a lot of people. Nothing the Israeli Government could possibly do, short of the immediate Nuking of Cairo, Damascus and Tehran, would ever be enough to appease the religious death wish of the Kahanists. They are to a man, every bit as religiously fanatical and filled with terroristic hatered, as any madras schooled, Al Qaeda iman. As I said before, I like the Israeli's, But I'd be careful, before I hitched my star to the Idea, that the Evil Israeli JBT's, are picking on the poor settlers. To do so, would be trying to veiw, an entire religion, though an over simplified, Americanized lens, that some here, would use, simply to justify their own American anti-government sentiments. Trust me guys, every event in the world, does not relate to Waco or Ruby Ridge and some of you, look entirely to hard, for examples of JBT's doing evil. Waco was bad shit, but since we have not had anouther Mount Carmel, in the last decade, it seem's like, some of you, have to invent JBT incidents, just so you'll have, something to fuel your Anti-government veiws, or just for something, to talk about in the forums. When you run out of JBT conspiracies, here in the States, you seem to start desprately, trying to fit events overseas into the Waco mold.... and it does not always translate, real well

The mosque on the Temple mount is an abomination. It stands as a beacon that the holy land belongs to Islam. Pardon my language, but FUCK THAT.

Quoted: Quoted: Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD. FN-TPS Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. Their belief system is centered around destroying the mosques on the temple mount and rebuilding the Great Jewish Temple, combined with a sort of battle of Armageddon death wish, that their efforts will trigger the final apocalyptic battle between the Arab world and Judaism. The great majority of Isaeli's veiw the Kahanist's as extremists of the worst sort and the fact that they launched an aborted plot to truck bomb an Arab girls school, a couple of years ago, has not really endeared these guys to a lot of people. Nothing the Israeli Government could possibly do, short of the immediate Nuking of Cairo, Damascus and Tehran, would ever be enough to appease the religious death wish of the Kahanists. They are to a man, every bit as religiously fanatical and filled with terroristic hatered, as any madras schooled, Al Qaeda iman. As I said before, I like the Israeli's, But I'd be careful, before I hitched my star to the Idea, that the Evil Israeli JBT's, are picking on the poor settlers. To do so, would be trying to veiw, an entire religion, though an over simplified, Americanized lens, that some here, would use, simply to justify their own American anti-government sentiments. Trust me guys, every event in the world, does not relate to Waco or Ruby Ridge and some of you, look entirely to hard, for examples of JBT's doing evil. Waco was bad shit, but since we have not had anouther Mount Carmel, in the last decade, it seem's like, some of you, have to invent JBT incidents, just so you'll have, something to fuel your Anti-government veiws, or just for something, to talk about in the forums. When you run out of JBT conspiracies, here in the States, you seem to start desprately, trying to fit events overseas into the Waco mold.... and it does not always translate, real well The mosque on the Temple mount is an abomination. It stands as a beacon that the holy land belongs to Islam. Pardon my language, but FUCK THAT.

Amen.........

Too bad the Israelis don't get it.

'course then again, that's the whole point...........

I would guess about 95% of blue state cops would enforce it, maybe 70% in red states, some lower.

Quoted: I still have a problem accepting the idea that American soldiers would turn on us. Now the cops OTOH (with few a exceptions) I can see happening without question.  Hell, even if the rank and file cop on the beat said "fuck it", nearly every "alphabet agency" in FedGov has a heavily armed SWAT-like organization.  THOSE are the ones that would be showing up on your front porch if push came to shove.

Soldiers know what they're told. Look at that officer who isolated the Japanese emporer to prevent the end of WWII. Most of those soldiers didn't know why  they were doing what they were.
Then again, the U.N. and Hillary wouldn't use our soldiers.
Cops....that's another story. I really wouldn't be that worried about them in my neck of the woods, but I would keep an eye on 'em..

Quoted: Partialy reposted, from something I wrote down in the survival forum. Regarding the same basic question. Because I see, no reason to write the same post twice, just changing a couple of words for GD. FN-TPS Im a great supporter of Israel, but I don't have a whole lot of sympathy for the Kahanist settlers. The Kahanist's are to the Israel's, what the the Ayran Nations Church is to Christianity. l

Glad you posted that I couldn;t remember the names, ect. I was explaining this yesterday to my mom.
I saw one of these people inteviewed and they are wacko. Definitly part of the problem just as Hamas and the others.
I only heard one report about the one who killed 4 Palestines a couple of days ago.
I also noticed that it was mostly slack jawed college kids on the roof yesterday.
When noting that the soldiers had tears in there eyes, remember, these are unarmed kids (I noticed emotional women) AND they were shooting soapy water around everywhere.
I must say the first soldiers up on the roof showed great restraint when those kids were grabbing their arms and getting in the way.
AND why didn't they throw a couple of hooks in that wire and pull it down?

US troops and police would seize guns from Americans or throw Americans off of their own land in a heartbeat. Only when it came to killing innocent Americans in a govt overthrow would most our military/police draw the line.. IMO.

You may be right. I just can't quite let go of the notion that our current crop of men and women in uniform could do such a thing. I can think of few things that would spark a Civil War faster than having a standing army turn on it's own people. There was a reason the Founding Fathers were terrified of a standing army.

It all will depend on how it's spun in the media and how it's explained to the people in uniform.  For example:

Scores Killed, Hundreds Injured As Para-Military Extremists Riot

BOSTON, April 20 - National Guard units seeking to confiscate a cache of recently banned assault weapons were ambushed on April 19th by elements of a para-military extremist faction. Military and law enforcement sources estimated that 72 were killed and more than 20 injured before government forces were compelled to withdraw.

Speaking after the clash, Massachusetts Governor Thomas Gage declared that the extremist faction, which was made up of local citizens, has links to the radical right-wing tax protest movement. Gage blamed the extremists for recent incidents of vandalism directed against internal revenue offices.

The governor, who described the group's organizers as "criminals," issued an executive order authorizing the summary arrest of any individual who has interfered with the government's efforts to secure law and order.

The military raid on the extremist arsenal followed wide-spread refusal by the local citizenry to turn over recently outlawed assault weapons. Gage issued a ban on military-style assault weapons and ammunition earlier in the week. This decision followed a meeting in early April between government and military leaders at which the governor authorized the forcible confiscation of illegal arms. One government official, speaking on condition of anonymity, pointed out that "none of these people would have been killed had the extremists obeyed the law and turned their weapons over voluntarily."

"Government troops initially succeeded in confiscating a large supply of outlawed weapons and ammunition. However, troops attempting to seize arms and ammunition in Lexington met with resistance from heavily-armed extremists who had been tipped off regarding the government's plans.

During a tense standoff in Lexington's town park, National Guard Colonel Francis Smith, commander of the government operation, ordered the armed group to surrender and return to their homes. The impasse was broken by a single shot, which was reportedly fired by one of the right-wing extremists. Eight civilians were killed in the ensuing exchange.

Ironically, the local citizenry blamed government forces rather than the extremists for the civilian deaths. Before order could be restored, armed citizens from surrounding areas had descended upon the guard units. Colonel Smith, finding his forces overmatched by the armed mob, ordered a retreat.

Governor Gage has called upon citizens to support the state/national joint task force in its effort to restore law and order. The governor has also demanded the surrender of those responsible for planning and leading the attack against the government troops. Samuel Adams, Paul Revere, and John Hancock, who have been identified as "ringleaders" of the extremist faction, remain at large.