Is there any truth to this?  How long after entering the Air Force/Navy do pilots get to actually fly?  Do they need this degree first (if what I heard was true)?

yes that is one hundred percent true.  And you are either going to have to have the luck of the Gods with you or go to the Academy to fly for the USAF.  BTW That college degree better be from a major top three Univerisity for flight like Embry Riddle or forget about it.  My brother tried in the USAF but he wasn't an Academy guy so they had him run in circles, Navy and Marines would take him and in the Marines is where he is now.  He was an instructor civlian side multi engined rated and high speed rated pilot, 25 and with I don't know how many hours.....he flew charter aircraft out of LV.

Been many years now but back then, yes.  There were also few spots open so the chances were better if it was a BS with good grades.  Joe

Yes, Officer and a Gentleman.  Army used to have enlisted helo pilots at one time I believe.  You aren't going to be a pilot unless you are an officer and have a degree most likely.  In the Marine Corps I remember some warrant officer helo pilots if I remember right but that was a long time ago.

Pilots=Officer=College Degree

Asolutely true, in most branches you have to have a degree just to be an officer, and good luck getting into the acadamy. I know a lawyer who couldnt make the grade

i went to this aviation career day thing a few months ago and they sayd that you can fly helicoptors in the army w/o a dregree. but everything else needs one. dont know how true this is.

Quoted: i went to this aviation career day thing a few months ago and they sayd that you can fly helicoptors in the army w/o a dregree. but everything else needs one. dont know how true this is.

Yeah but who would want to fly a damn helicopter??  

If you want to be a commissioned officer and fly in the Army, you need a degree.

If you want to become a Warrant Officer in the Army and fly, you do not need a degree. Although, a good number of them have degrees.

I was enlisted in the Marine Corps.  Scored too high on the tests, so they kept sending me in to take more tests.  I got pulled in and was made to report to some board of officers in boot camp and asked if I would like to try out for the Naval Academy.  No, sir.  (figured I would fail out) This was in the '70's so they were probably having a hard time getting people if they wanted me.

Just before I got out as an NCO they pulled me up to Battalion to see a Colonel who decided the Marine Corps was going to pay my way through college and make me an officer. (was afraid I would flunk out and have to go back to enlisted) I had the old GI bill so they were going to pay for it anyway.  So I got out and went to college, got through with highest honors and rarely opened a book.

Almost went back in when I got my degree, but went to work for a Gov't agency that paid more at the time then the military.  

Yes, it is true that if you want to fly for the Air Force, you need a degree.  All pilots in the AF are officers, and as such, need to have a degree.

The Army was the only branch of the service that had pilot positions that didn't require a degree.  I don't know if it is still this way or not.  But when I was looking, you could get a slot as a helo driver without a college degree.  That has been almost 20 years ago though.

As for how long until you could fly?  Well, once you get your degree, then you have to get through Officer Training School.  After OTS, if you pass the medicals and qualify for a flying position, I think the next step is UPT.  I don't remember what the U was for but the PT is pilot training. It might have been undergraduate, meaning you haven't earned your wings yet.

After finishing UPT, depending on your scores, you can expect one of three tracks as I recall.  Fighters, Bombers/transports, or instructor pilots.  

You will then go to aircraft specific training where you will learn more than you care to.  It is definately like trying to "drink from a firehose".  A whole bunch of info coming at you really fast and you are just trying not to drown.

This process can take a few years, depending on your ability and requirement for retraining etc.

I doubt I am 100% on the above info, but it gives you some idea.  I was never in the military but I have flown with pilots from every branch of the service, from Navy Hornet drivers, Air Force B-1, F-15, F-16, U-2, C-5, C141, C130 drivers, Army Apache, Blackhawk, Huey, Kiowa, and even 1 Coast Guard Dauphin pilot.  Sorry, don't know the aircraft ID for the Dauphin.

What does all this mean?  Nothing about me, just that in flying with all those guys and gals I learned one very important thing.  They are all just normal people like you.  If they can do it, so can you if you put your mind to it.  There is nothing magical, mystical, or even actually difficult to flying an airplane.  The one thing that keeps most people out of the cockpit is the investment of time it takes to get there not a lack of ability.  

If you want to fly, I recommend you invest the time, it is one of the most exciting things I have ever done.

I am a pilot, just not professionally.  More curious than anything, I am in my early 30's and probably too undisciplined and past my prime for something like this.  I would love to fly an A10 though.....

My major point is that I never finished college, and I thought the fact that I have held an executive position (CFO) would work as "experience in lieu of education".  I doubt the military sees it that way however.

Quoted: yes that is one hundred percent true.  And you are either going to have to have the luck of the Gods with you or go to the Academy to fly for the USAF.  BTW That college degree better be from a major top three Univerisity for flight like Embry Riddle or forget about it. My brother tried in the USAF but he wasn't an Academy guy so they had him run in circles, Navy and Marines would take him and in the Marines is where he is now.  He was an instructor civlian side multi engined rated and high speed rated pilot, 25 and with I don't know how many hours.....he flew charter aircraft out of LV.

Uhh ... no.

The current Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, USAF Gen. Richard Myer was an ROTC cadet at Kansas State. I'd say his military career has been somewhat above average.

My best friend from KU just graduated today from T-38s at Columbus AFB, and is headed to Moody for advanced fighters, then Davis-Monthan for A-10s. In his T-37 and T-38 time, he has yet to have a classmate from USAFA. This was AFTER Lasik on both eyes.

The last KU ROTC commissioning ceremony I went to featured several cadets and midshipmen accepted for pilot training.

To be a pilot in the USAF one must demonstrate outstanding competence, desire and fortitude.

Quoted: I am a pilot, just not professionally.  More curious than anything, I am in my early 30's and probably too undisciplined and past my prime for something like this.  I would love to fly an A10 though..... My major point is that I never finished college, and I thought the fact that I have held an executive position (CFO) would work as "experience in lieu of education".  I doubt the military sees it that way however.

I doubt that they would.  Where are you flying out of?  I flew out of Colorado Springs for several years.  I miss the mountains!!

My dad graduated from USF and has flown P3's for 20 years. My dad wanted to go Marine Corps, but he got a D in his last class and they told him to retake it and try back afterwards. With a kid and out of college, when the Navy said they'd take him right away he jumped on it. You dont have to go to an Academy to be a pilot, just a degree. And it doesnt have to be specifically for avaition. Unless its like a foreign language like arabic, the military has their own way of doing things, and will teach you all you need to know. All this is coming from a Commander in the Navy, i asked him the same questions and this is exactly what he told me. I looked into all my aviation options before graduating High School, and its basically this: Fixed wing=College degree. Rotary= If your smart enough and in top physical shape, just a HS dimploma; you'd be a warrant officer in the Army.

Although, in times of need the Military will bypass their own rules. My dad is in the Navy reserves now, and flies for United Airlines. Lots of his instructors are prior military, and the older ones are Vietnam veterans. He told me one of his instructors wasnt college educated. Heres the story, i thought it was cool.

In the height of the Vietnam War, this guy(lets call him Jon- i dont know his real name) so Jon ran away from home after having problems with his parents. With nowhere to go and nothing more than as HS diploma, he enlisted in the navy, he'd get drafted so he enlisted first. He signed up to be some radar operator for a ship or something. One day, while he was in his radar class, learning how to work all the dials and what not, an officer walked into his classroom, talked to the instructor. The instructor asked the class "Is anyone here interested in aviation?"  Jon looks around, nobody pays any attention to the question. Jon raises his hand. Goes outside into the hall and talks with the officer. Two years later, he found himself locking his F4 Phantom into the catapult on the aircraft carrier. He flew F4's until he got out in the early 80's. Got hired at United and is a senior instructor for them now.

Can you imagine that? Running away from home, and showing up a couple years later as a figher pilot? Kick ass lol

In the Army, once you're in you can put together a packet to go to Warrent Officers school and be an Army pilot. No college required, however it does help tremendously.

Quoted: In the Army, once you're in you can put together a packet to go to Warrent Officers school and be an Army pilot. No college required, however it does help tremendously.

Is civilian experience admissible at all in these sorts of applications?

From time to time, the Navy and Marine Corps have aviator training programs called NavCad and MarCad. A buddy of mine went through AOCS at Pennicola back in 89 in the NavCad (Naval aviation cadet) program. To qualify, he needed 60 semester hours of college and 2.8 GPA. He had to have his undergrad degree within his first 8 year commitement. He had to have a masters before he could be promoted to Lt. Cmdr.. The last I heard, the NavCad/MarCad was discontinued in the mids 90's. But, as I said it comes and goes from time to time.
He attended Emory-Riddle aeronautical university while he was stationed at NAS Jacksonville with HSL60. He started out flying SH60 Seahawks, primary mission was anti submarine warfare. Due to his Navy training, He didn't need much to complete his undergrad and Masters degrees.

He is now a Commander and flies C9's out of NAS Atlanta. From being prior service Army, he's got his 20 in but doesn't seem to be interested in leaving just yet.

Yup, there's dials, switches and math and stuff.

Everybody wants to fly. The military can afford to be selective. Unless you are in a combat slot you will spent the majority of your time performing a multitude of highly skilled tasks related to aviation. People need to be promoted into leadership slots and by the time you are, you will be highly familiar with everything that is required to keep the aircraft flying. You'll spent time performing maintenance management, logistics management, personnel management, records management, weapons management, vehicle management, auxillery equipment management...

There is a messhall, a motor pool, an arms room, the supply room and quarters  all of which you must be able to manage. There are training schedules, schools, regular testing, procedures and meetings. You may fly two or three days a month and spend the rest of the time training and filling out reports and attending meetings.

Then there is the flying. You have an aircraft full of the latest technology, but you are expected to land the aircraft at night, in a thunderstorm, after losing all your electrical power due to mechanical failure or combat damage. That means you have to be able to fly below radar, in the dark, without instruments while crunching the numbers in your head using your wristwatch and a mechanical flight computer or calculator.

Well, at least, that's what I had to do. Welcome to aviation.

Whats the committment for that now? 9 years? Thats what it is in the Navy i believe. Its a GREAT deal to get an ROTC scholarship through college. Pays for all classes, plus books and a stipend. But if you dont get a pilot slot, ...

With my dad as a military pilot, i thought i really wanted to be a military pilot too. But after getting though my solo in civi aircraft. I realised i love flying too much to kill the joy of it and do it as a job. Plus, i think i found my calling; firearms. When im done with college, im gonna go Marine Corps Infantry. Ive been meaning to ask about Force Recon and being an officer, but i'll start another thread on that.

Yes, to be a pilot in the USAF, you need to first be an officer, which requires a college degree.

Now, there are different ways to commission:  USAFA, ROTC, or OTS are the main three, and those are if you plan on going active duty.  You can also try applying to a Guard or Reserve unit (and earn your commission through AMS).  These slots are very competitive.

www.afrotc.com Has some good ROTC info (and what it takes to earn a pilot slot).

In the USAFA, as long as you're medically qualified, you pretty much have to request NOT to go to pilot training.  In ROTC and OTS, you have to compete for a pilot slot.

And, if you didn't get a pilot slot up front, you can still apply while on active duty (AF Form 215 I believe).

I'm in JSUPT (Joint Specialized Undergraduate Pilot Training) at Vance AFB in OK.  We currently have 22 students in our class right now.  Only 6 went to the USAFA.  We also have 2 Reservists and 3 Guard guys.  The rest of us are a healthy mix of OTS and ROTC (I was ROTC, then active duty before coming here).  16 of us are in T-1s, and 6 are in T-38s.  We're scheduled to graduate Sept 9th, but most of us are about done with flying.  Also, we have one Navy student, and he went to the USNA.

There are many different things they look for in competing for a slot.  Flight time is a fairly small percentage.  They look at your GPA, your PCSM, your fitness test, commander's rating (ROTC), Field Training (ROTC), and a few other things.  PCSM is Pilot Candidate Selection Method- which is made up of your AFOQT (Air Force Officer Qualifying Test), your BAT (Basic Attributes or Aptitude Test), and your flight hours.  

They really look at a multitude of deciding factors.  If you're going to a Guard/Reserve unit as an outsider, good luck.  They do like to hire from within, but all the guys in my class were 'outsiders.'  The interview is the main chunk.

UPT takes about 54 weeks.  First 6 weeks are Academics.  Then Phase II is when you first start flying.  The USAF is transitioning to the T-6, but I went through T-37s.  Then its on to either the T-1 or the T-38 for Phase III.  After finishing Phase III, you earn your wings.  But then its still more follow on training, which can take anywhere from 3 weeks (C-21, which is a Lear jet) to upwards of 6 months.  And even when you finally get qualified, you'll still have a good handful of training before you're ready for combat.

If you get selected for ENJJPT (Euro Nato Joint Jet Pilot Training at Sheppard AFB), they only track to the T-38 for Phase III.  They produce strictly fighter/bomber pilots.  Vance AFB, Columbus AFB, and Laughlin AFB all offer the T-1 (for tanker/airlift) and the T-38.

For those that become instructor pilots (or requesting C-21s), its usally only one tour in their career.  This is known as an Alpha Tour.  After finishing pilot training, the USAF wants you eventually to be qual'd in a Major Weapon System (C-17, KC-135, F-15, etc), so they'll rarely keep someone as an IP their whole career.  Most pilots typically only do one Alpha Tour in their career.  Someone else correct me if this isn't true.

If you have any questions, IM me.

ETA: Commitment is 10 years active duty after earning your wings.

ETA: The T-44 track is an option for those wanting to do C-130s ONLY (and that training is done after Phase II, and is located at Corpus Christi).
The Helo route is an option as well, and that is also done after doing Phase II.  That training is at Ft Rucker.

alright maybe you all covered this but I didn't see it in what I read, also kinda a dumb question. I have been thinking about the Airforce have been most my life. I kinda gave up on the idea and when to school. Now I am almost out with a BA and thinking my loving to fly. I got that you need a degree but does it have to be a specific one?

No specific degree is required.  Just having one fills the square.  Unless you are dead set on being a test pilot, where you need an aerodynamics degree that is.....

awesome thanks !

That program is long dead and won't be coming back anytime soon.
The Navy has too many pilots in the pipeline as it is right now, they are stashing trained pilots all around the fleet, some are looking at waiting for up to 2 years before they can get a squadron assignment.

BUPERS
Oct 1993

In a move reflecting the need for fewer aviators as the fleet shrinks in size, the Navy is ending the Naval Aviation Cadet (NAVCAD) program that once commissioned as many as 90 new pilots a year.

Used in past decades to recruit pilots in times of national emergency and conflict, the NAVCAD program reopened in 1986 to help train more pilots as the Navy grew to a 600-ship fleet. The program offered commissions and flight training to civilians and active duty enlisted personnel who had an Associate's degree or at least 60 semester hours of college credit.

With the end of the Cold War and the Navy on a new course for a smaller fleet, the program was closed to civilians in 1992. It remained open to active duty enlisted personnel, but only nine former bluejackets participated in the program in 1992. That compared to 60 prior enlisted personnel who went through another route for commission and wings, Aviation Officer Candidate School (AOCS).

With the Navy planning to train only 583 pilots in 1994, compared to 1040 in 1987, the Bureau of Naval Personnel decided to put the NAVCAD program "back on the shelf." NAVADMIN 138/93 cancels the NAVCAD program effective Oct. 1, 1993.

The termination of the NAVCAD will not affect those individuals already in the training program, or those selected before Oct. 1, 1993.


Friday, January 14, 2005
The Pensacola Factor

This email concerns midshipmen/graduates who want or are waiting for flight school as a Student Naval Aviator (Navy Pilot). On Tuesday, January 4th, 2005, the commanding officer (CO) of Naval Aviation Schools Command (NASC) spoke to all officers currently waiting to start flight school as pilots in what is called the "Alpha Pool" (A-pool). The purpose of his remarks were to explain the current situation regarding the extreme backlog in the student naval aviator (SNA) pipeline and what course of action will be implemented to resolve the situation. This is a brief explanation of the Captain's remarks.

Obviously, the US military is a very complex entity requiring a tremendous amount of planning and forethought. Part of this planning is projecting how many people will be required to fulfill a particular job in the years ahead. In the case of naval aviators, this personnel projection window is 3-7 years based on the longest naval aviator training track, an F/A-18 Hornet strike pilot. For planning purposes, it takes a minimum of 3 years to train an OCS (Officer Candidate School) graduate to be a Hornet pilot. This is because OCS kids already have their college educations. It takes a minimum of 7 years to train Academy and ROTC kids to be a Hornet pilot, because of the 4 years spent in college. Therefore, the Navy must predict 3-7 years in advance how many pilots they are going to need.

Clearly, the military is a very dynamic, ever changing organization, just like any large organization. In the 3-7 years leading up to the present time, the naval aviation community changed in ways that were not anticipated. The F-14 Tomcat and S-3 Viking platforms are retiring sooner than expected. The EA-6B Prowler community shrunk by 2 squadrons, unexpectedly. The P-3 Orions are dropping like flies because they are so old. All of these factors have resulted in more pilots than planes. Rather than purge trained and experienced aviators as their platforms disappear (they are transitioned into another platform when possible), it is more advantageous to purge those people who are untrained and inexperienced officers. The powers-that-be (up to the highest levels in the naval aviation community, whom I will use NASC as a simple, catch-all designator) determined that 160 student naval aviators need to be purged from the program.

They did consider simply firing those individuals who scored just well enough on the ASTB (the standard aviation aptitude test) to qualify for flight training, but did not over-achieve. They decided against this because it would obviously be changing the rules mid-game and cheat individuals who were promised on good-faith a spot in flight training. After several months of analysis and debate, the course of action decided upon was to "raise the bar" in the first portion of flight training, known as Aviation Preflight Indoctrination (API). This is the 6-week course with which all naval aviators and naval flight officers begin their flight training. Up to this point, the command policy regarding API has been 3 academic failures (out of 6 academic tests) resulted in removal from flight training. This created an attrition rate in API of approximately 2%. In order to meet the new attrition quota, NASC decided that the attrition rate in API should be forcibly raised to 20%. Using the last 200 pilots to complete API as a data set, NASC calculated that approximately a 91 average on all tests will be required to continue in flight training beyond API (80% is already considered a failing grade). However, those last 200 pilots were not affected by this new rule, and the new standard is a "rolling average". This means that the pilots now starting API will obviously work harder and score higher, pushing the "rolling average" up with each API class. A new API class starts every week.

Measures are also being taken along other portions of the training pipeline which are beyond the Captain's remarks of Tuesday the 4th. Pilots further along in the pipeline have been feeling the crunch for some time. Several SNAs have transferred to the Marine Corps, which is currently short on pilots. Others have simply been removed from active duty upon completion of flight school and sentenced to the reserves. A relative few are actually making it all the way through the flight training syllabus into the active fleet. There are virtually no jet slots available, with only the top individual from each primary class even having a shot at getting into the jet training pipeline. All those dreams of being Maverick are virtually gone. For those of you with Ensigns currently waiting to start API, the consequences of the new policy are obvious: a much higher level of effort will be necessary to pass API and continue in flight training as a pilot. It may be possible to acquire an NFO (Naval Flight Officer, back-seater) slot if an individual falls below the required pilot score.

The Navy has a slight current need for NFOs. It may also be possible to obtain a transfer to the Marine Corps; however, the likelihood of that occurring is slim to none. The Marine Corps is in need of pilots now, not 2-3 years from now, so they are looking for transfers much farther along in the training pipeline. Remember that all Marine Corps officers must go to The Basic School (TBS, 6 months long) in Quantico, VA before going on full active duty in the Fleet Marine Force (FMF). For Marine Corps transfers, they will attend TBS after earning their pilot wings.

For some, Pensacola and API will be as far as their Navy career will take them. The entire Navy is overwhelmed with junior officers (Ensigns, Lieutenant Junior Grades, and Lieutenants) at the present time, not just the aviation community. Some Ensigns will be placed on "Individual Ready Reserve" which, according to the NASC CO, will likely be recalled "only in the case of global thermonuclear war".

Translation: the payback commitment is meaningless. Here's your ticket home, thanks for playing, have a nice life. What about transfers to other services you ask? Extremely problematic at best, with the exception perhaps being Army infantry. Inter-service transfers are very difficult to negotiate and accomplish. For those of you with midshipmen hoping to become Navy pilots, this paints an uncertain indefinite future.

Pilot slots for the Academy and ROTC are being reduced by 50 as a whole, for how long I do not know. I understand there to be quite a few issues with service assignment for the class of '05. If you are hoping and praying for more pilot slots, stop, there will be none this year that I can guarantee. For those '05 graduates that actually do secure a pilot slot, I would expect the Navy to throw graduate school at them like candy at a football game. Graduate school defers people for a good solid year from Pensacola. Many '04 graduates were given graduate school slots this past summer to prevent them from getting to Pensacola and exacerbating the problem. Those that do make it to Pensacola this summer or fall, if the quota has not been met, expect the new policy to still be in effect. Even if the quota has been met, expect an uncertain and bumpy ride through the flight training pipeline. The outlooks for '06 and '07 are quite uncertain from my point of view. I am speculating far beyond my pay grade, but I would anticipate a sharply reduced number of pilot slots from years past, resulting in much stiffer competition. I think the outlook for '08, '09, and '10 improves, because the Navy will be acquiring the new Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) and a replacement for the ailing P-3 Orion in the years following these classes' graduations.

What all this really comes down to is the fundamental dictum of life on Earth: Hard work is rewarded. Then again, not everyone can finish first and someone has to be the anchor-man. Tell your mids that with the current state of the Navy, their effort at the Academy will directly affect their career in the Navy.

With the class of '04, they started commissioning "undesignated" officers. These officers will do 2 years as a surface warfare officer and hope that there is another place in the Navy for them at the end of those 2 years. Of course, the pendulum will once again swing the other way and the Navy will find itself in desperate need of officers, but not today and not for the immediate future.

Quoted: From time to time, the Navy and Marine Corps have aviator training programs called NavCad and MarCad. A buddy of mine went through AOCS at Pennicola back in 89 in the NavCad (Naval aviation cadet) program. To qualify, he needed 60 semester hours of college and 2.8 GPA. He had to have his undergrad degree within his first 8 year commitement. He had to have a masters before he could be promoted to Lt. Cmdr.. The last I heard, the NavCad/MarCad was discontinued in the mids 90's. But, as I said it comes and goes from time to time. He attended Emory-Riddle aeronautical university while he was stationed at NAS Jacksonville with HSL60. He started out flying SH60 Seahawks, primary mission was anti submarine warfare. Due to his Navy training, He didn't need much to complete his undergrad and Masters degrees. He is now a Commander and flies C9's out of NAS Atlanta. From being prior service Army, he's got his 20 in but doesn't seem to be interested in leaving just yet.

Quoted: Quoted: In the Army, once you're in you can put together a packet to go to Warrent Officers school and be an Army pilot. No college required, however it does help tremendously. Is civilian experience admissible at all in these sorts of applications?

Very much so.

Quoted: Quoted: In the Army, once you're in you can put together a packet to go to Warrent Officers school and be an Army pilot. No college required, however it does help tremendously. Is civilian experience admissible at all in these sorts of applications?

I don't know what you mean by admissable?  I am sure there is a column for it on the app.  I don't know how much weight it will have in the overall process however.  

Depending on your flight time and ratings, it could possibly be beneficial for the Army if they are still flying the King Airs.  I don't know if they are, but 8 years or so ago, when I was in CO, I had a couple of friends trying to get the fixed wing transition while they were based at Ft. Carson.  It was very competitive and very desirable apparently.

Your fixed wing experience would help you in navigation/airspace but would do very little towards the actual flight training with the Army.  It could actually impede you somewhat, because some things just don't transfer well from fixed wing aircraft to helicopters.  

Quoted: I am in my early 30's and probably too undisciplined and past my prime for something like this.  I would love to fly an A10 though..... My major point is that I never finished college, and I thought the fact that I have held an executive position (CFO) would work as "experience in lieu of education".  I doubt the military sees it that way however.

You are fast approaching the maximum age allowed to even get in the military at all.  Just my opinion, but there isn't a chance in hell at your age any branch of the service would take you and give you flight training.

Quoted: The Marine Corps is in need of pilots now, not 2-3 years from now, so they are looking for transfers much farther along in the training pipeline. Remember that all Marine Corps officers must go to The Basic School (TBS, 6 months long) in Quantico, VA before going on full active duty in the Fleet Marine Force (FMF). For Marine Corps transfers, they will attend TBS after earning their pilot wings.

Not to mention we don't accept officers commissions from other sources, the Marine Corps doesn't allow a Ensign in the Navy or Lt in the Army or Air Force to transfer into it. So they would have to go through OCS, get commissioned, go through TBS prior to anything else.  

Quoted: Funny how there is no shortage of people who want to be pilots, yet they get paid extra. Must be nice.

When I went to CAS3, I was always defending flight pay. After a while, I would just smile.

But, what the heck, the Army was paying it out.