www.dhonline.com/articles/2005/08/06/news/top_story/news01.txt

Self-defense drill draws police response

By Carrie Petersen
Albany Democrat-Herald

A family vacation for Scott Turner, owner of Turner's Taekwondo Inc., came to a quick end when he received a call from one of his instructors saying his students, practicing gun self-defense, had just been handcuffed and held on the ground at gunpoint by Albany police.

"I thought they were joking," Turner said Thursday. But he soon realized there was truth to the story.

The students were detained briefly at the scene but then released with citations for disorderly conduct.

Turner, who says he has respect for the police department and understands why officers responded the way they did, doesn't understand why citations were issued.

According to an Albany police report, the department received one call from a driver on Queen Avenue reporting an armed disturbance at about 7 p.m. July 29, near the Four Seasons Car Wash, 1070 Queen Ave. S.E.

Police Capt. Ben Atchley said Friday the department may have received other calls as well.

What people saw, Turner said, was five students and an instructor participating in a martial arts exercise in an alley behind Karate For Kids, 1711 Hill St. S.E.

The students were practicing Krav Maga, a martial art that teaches, among other tactics, how to defend against someone approaching with a gun or knife, Turner explained.

The students, ages 17 to 45, were practicing with air soft guns, which were marked to signify they were unloaded or being used for practice, Turner said.

"Officers arrived on scene and observed people who appeared to have weapons in the back alley," Atchley said Friday.

The officers thought they had a possible robbery or gang activity, according to the police report.

The students and instructor were all ordered on the ground at gunpoint and handcuffed, according to the report.

Turner said that a 5-year-old girl, the daughter of one of the students, was patted down by police.

The report made no mention of that but did note that a child was found behind a Dumpster.

Five airsoft guns were seized by police, according to the report.

The officers learned that the activity was part of the Krav Maga class, but the supervising officer decided to issue a citation to all six people for disorderly conduct.

The citations were given because the activity, which could be seen from Queen Avenue S.E., "raised public alarm," Atchley said.

The department also used a tremendous amount of resources to respond to the activity, Atchley said.

If there was a major event occurring elsewhere in the city, Atchley said, the question is whether police would have been able to respond with only half the department available.

"By doing what they did, they diminished our ability to respond somewhere else," he said.

Turner understands why the police responded the way they did.

"Albany police did exactly what I would have expected them to do," Turner said. "I fully understand."

What Turner, and others in the class, don't understand is the citations.

Turner said his students are professionals in the community. "They are really good people. I have a lot of respect for them," he said.

When asked why all the students received citations and not just the instructor, Atchley said he wasn't there and that the decision was made by the supervising officer.

"I feel so bad for my students," Turner said. "If anyone has to get in trouble I would want it to be myself or the school."

He and the others in the class said they are hopeful the charges will be dismissed once they appear in Albany Municipal Court.

A conviction of disorderly conduct carries a maximum fine of $2,500 and maximum jail time of six months.

Turner has operated his martial arts business in Albany for 12 years.

During all that time, students have practiced tactics outside, Turner said.

The alley, with graffiti and wire fencing, gives students a different environment from the matted floors inside.

The irony, Turner pointed out, is that his students have probably never been in an alley at any other time in their lives.

Turner said officers have driven by at other times, and watched them or asked what was going on, but no one had ever been issued a citation or even been told to go inside.

Now several of his students have canceled their membership, Turner said. "I can't blame them."

He noted that one of the students originally came to his school because of its good reputation.

A call to the police department or signs in the alley stating that training was in session could have prevented the whole episode, Atchley said.

"There was no indication to us this was a training exercise."

Turner said he has not spoken with anyone at the police department since the incident.

And while martial arts classes continue as usual, outdoor exercises will be held inside until the incident is resolved, he said.

Well that was stupid on several counts.. and why the hell were they in the alley and not the studio? For a different environment? Bah, roll up the mats.

Admittedly, a bone-headed move on the instructors and the students...hello, McFly?  But still, what kind of limp-dicked jerkwad calls the PD to report something like this?  People today have zero observational skills and even less common sense.



10-32

That SUCKS.  I regularly train my students outside. Between cars, concrete, aspault, grass, uneven terrain. If you are attacked it is a life saver to be on familiar territory.

Now the question is, since this was a KravMaga class, were these folks wearing the standard uniform of KravMaga. ALL BLACK and no hint of it being a martial arts school?????????

ETA: of the KravMaga schools I've been to, the uniform seems to be black t-shirts, Black BDU pants or black warmup bottoms.

Playing Ninja with Airsofts, it's the road to hell I say.

But still, what kind of limp-dicked jerkwad calls the PD to report something like this? People today have zero observational skills and even less common sense.

- I'd say it depends on how much of the scene the initial 911 caller was able to observe. I recently pulled up on two kids playing airsoft.  However, what I initially saw was a person crouched down (back towards me) close to a dumpster behind a strip mall that has had several businesses robbed with a pistol in his hand. The person than got up, started running toward the businesses with the gun punched out at what i figured was his "victim".  As I rolled forward i was able to make out the face mask on the second subject and see the small orange tip of the airsoft pistol he had. All the signs I had at first were that of a robbery going down right in front of me.  The same thing could have easily been playing out for the person that called the Krav maga students in.

You have grownups playing with toy guns in an alley; something is probably going to happen and chances are it will involve the police. "Grown-ups" should know better.  

The police patted down a 5 year old girl; .... maybe in Iraq.

It's the same bullshit response when I've heard officers say that if they got a report of a man with a gun who turned out to be legally carrying, they'd still cite him for disturbing the peace - because some sheep got spooked enough to call.

I can understand responding to the call, treating it as if it were a dangerous situation and not just a drill...but once I know what's really going on saying, "Keep up the true to life training, but be a little more careful next time and let any idiots who might see you know what's going on."

Five airsoft guns were seized by police, according to the report.

So even after the cops saw that they were just toys, they still stole their property?  There used to be a time when cops had common sense and respected the people that paid their salaries.  Now they always seem to do everything they can get away with to hurt the public.

maximum jail time of six months.

Those cops are screwing those people badly.z

6 months jail for DISORDERLY CONDUCT????   And people complain that NY laws are bad??  Same thing with Virginia and their idiot cop's issuing reckless driving tickets (with jail time) for high speeds on their highways.  

Give me a fucking break. The guns were AIRSOFT and clearly marked. Sure a passer by might have seen something and called the cops not understanding. Thats fine. I have trained in several schools who would train in various urban enviormnents. No big deal.

The pencil dick cop was simply pissed that he could arrest anyone because they weren't doing anything wrong. Because the dick head cop actually had to get off his ass and put the Krispy Kreme down, he gave citations to punish the class. The cop should be publicly repremanded and the PD should be forced to issue an appology. They were law abiding citizens practicing self defese. This is an abuse of police power.

And to pussies who say roll up the matts why are you even on this forum? WTF. They were doing nothing wrong, clearly marked practice pistols etc. Any dumb shit cop could see that the guns were toys being used for class. The cop was abusing his power plain and simple. They have a right t train where they want. And training in diverse envorments is important.

According to an Albany police report, the department received one call from a driver on Queen Avenue reporting an armed disturbance at about 7 p.m. July 29, near the Four Seasons Car Wash, 1070 Queen Ave. S.E.

Quoted: Give me a fucking break. The guns were AIRSOFT and clearly marked.

How so, exactly?  I have seen plenty of airsoft pics here that look like real guns.

As for the 6 months in jail, BS.  It's BS.  That may be tha maximum penalty allowed by law, but its certainly not the usual or even likely penalty.  If convicted, which is unlikely, they will get community service or a $40.00 fine.

"raised alarm"

nothing illegal...just a few concerned citizens who called it in....

at least in texas, for long guns, they say it must be in a manner "calculated" to cause alarm - so no ticket for long guns, other than that if it is on your own property what's the problem?  police come and check it out and go home - no fines, etc

more asshole behavior from cops


now playing with toy guns in public is illegal?


jackasses

The students, ages 17 to 45, were practicing with air soft guns, which were marked to signify they were unloaded or being used for practice

Quoted: It's the same bullshit response when I've heard officers say that if they got a report of a man with a gun who turned out to be legally carrying, they'd still cite him for disturbing the peace - because some sheep got spooked enough to call.

It never holds up in court - but you'll never get reimbursed for the harassment by cop and the unlawful arrest

When you see the police as your only "defense" this is a normal response by sheeple. You know damn well that the people reporting/observing were many yards away - WTF could they really identify.

well, I gues this is why we always used 'blue guns'. BUT, the areas surrounding the building that the dojo is in, isn't that still considered private property? if so, that would take the public aspect of this incident away. Also, once an explanatiion of what exactly was happening was given you'd think that the LEO's could have used a bit more common sense.

Crap like this is one of the reasons I stopped liking the airsoft community and hobby. Kids, mostly, try to make the argument that airsoft is a good training aid. Training for what I have no idea. Here is a case where airsoft was used for training and look what happens, the police are called. We never received any calls using 'blue guns' and we were on a college campus that was frequently patrolled by the local PD.

Oh well, liberal America has put me about two hours passes pissed off. Yes, people who believe that the police are their only form of protection will overreact like this, and rally for banning firearms. There will probably be a call to ban Martial arts schools in NY now that it causes a public disturbance. They will also do nothing to defend themselves against anyone foreign or domestic who wants to cause them harm, and criticize those who will defend themselves and those around them....or who are learning to.

Ahh liberals....keep up the good work (don't worry, they'll all die in the first wave trying to 'negotiate')

Quoted: According to an Albany police report, the department received one call from a driver on Queen Avenue reporting an armed disturbance at about 7 p.m. July 29, near the Four Seasons Car Wash, 1070 Queen Ave. S.E..

DRAW DOWN!    

I'll bet their 911 switchboard lit up like a Christmas tree.

We had the exact same kind of morons here,  only they played at CARJACKINGS ON A PUBLIC STREET using airsoft pistols.  krav Maga there too.

By the time it was all said and done,  That little "practice session" cost the city over a quarter mill in emergency response.

I'd seize the damn toys too.  I'm certainly going to enter them as evidence of felony stupidity.

Laws exist because of the ignorant,  and boy, do these guys qualify.

Quoted: I'll bet their 911 switchboard lit up like a Christmas tree. We had the exact same kind of morons here,  only they played at CARJACKINGS ON A PUBLIC STREET using airsoft pistols.  krav Maga there too. By the time it was all said and done,  That little "practice session" cost the city over a quarter mill in emergency response. I'd seize the damn toys too.  I'm certainly going to enter them as evidence of felony stupidity. Laws exist because of the ignorant,  and boy, do these guys qualify.

Good.  Does $250,000 worth of police resources usually respond to a car jacking? The SWAT mentality is going to start killing/injuring more than it saves, if things keep progressing.

I am beginning to HATE the police more and more and more.
When it was obvious nothing illegal was occurring, the officer should have strongly urged them to take it inside, or came back and talked to the owner, recommending a privacy fence.

Quoted: Quoted: I'll bet their 911 switchboard lit up like a Christmas tree. We had the exact same kind of morons here,  only they played at CARJACKINGS ON A PUBLIC STREET using airsoft pistols.  krav Maga there too. By the time it was all said and done,  That little "practice session" cost the city over a quarter mill in emergency response. I'd seize the damn toys too.  I'm certainly going to enter them as evidence of felony stupidity. Laws exist because of the ignorant,  and boy, do these guys qualify. Good.  Does $250,000 worth of police resources usually respond to a car jacking? The SWAT mentality is going to start killing/injuring more than it saves, if things keep progressing. I am beginning to HATE the police more and more and more. When it was obvious nothing illegal was occurring, the officer should have strongly urged them to take it inside, or came back and talked to the owner, recommending a privacy fence.

You guys really have SWAT on the brain.  You HATE the police because of someone else's idiocy.  

However, maybe I SHOULD mention the fact these particular morons caused two collisions, EMS response, one person to the hospital, and a short pursuit when they said "oh shit"!  and fled the scene.
That 250K includes EMS, fire dept, police, and victim services.

Car jackings are VIOLENT CRIMES IN PROGRESS.  You can sure bet there is an overwhelming response.


Maybe I should tell you about the two additional morons that decided to take their Airsoft AR's up onto the roof of a strip center?

idiots are everywhere.

seriously though, that whole "causing a public disturbance" thing seems to get applied to some pretty B.S. stuff.

i'm not saying what the school was doing was 100% smart, but let's get some perspective here:

a whole bunch of people (of all ages) were detained and CITED because one person was alarmed. weak.

you can find one person that will get alarmed at just about anything.

In 1983 an elderly woman telephoned the San Francisco mayor's office (Diane Feinstein, no less) to ask if the Russians were attacking during a Blue Angels air demonstration over San Francisco Bay.

Di-Fi then attempted to order the Blue Angels to leave.  After they had concluded the show and departed to another scheduled show, the mayor's office called a press conference and claimed that the mayor had ordered the jets down.  Then, admitted that  the Blue Angels had a permit to perform the show (stringent flight regs over SF) and that the mayor had no authority over the Navy.

The next day, the Blue Angels did another show over the Bay.

Welcome to the land of the sheeple.  You do something besides go to work, go to the bar, and root for the most popular football/baseball/basketball team, and it scares the sheeple.

Since the sheeple have been trained over the years to call 911 when they're scared, we get shit like this happening.



I don't think the problem is with people having zero observational skills, or the police overreacting in this instance.  I think the problem is with the "OMG that's not normal call the police!" attitude that the majority of the sheeple have.

Quoted: idiots are everywhere. seriously though, that whole "causing a public disturbance" thing seems to get applied to some pretty B.S. stuff. i'm not saying what the school was doing was 100% smart, but let's get some perspective here: a whole bunch of people (of all ages) were detained and CITED because one person was alarmed. weak. you can find one person that will get alarmed at just about anything.

I doubt it was just one guy.  Judging from past experience, it could be hundreds of calls, esp if it was within view of a busy street.

People just don't understand what the response is for this sort of thing.  It's not one beat cop in a patrol car.  It's 5-10 cars, a supervisor, EMS stages, The local Emergency Room is alerted, other sectors set up a pursuit perimeter, and the helicopter takes off.

For a REAL shootout you need all that.  Unfortunately, there is no way to tell until you get there.

My suggestion would be to bill these guys for the expense.  (EMS/fire already do that for the idiots that get stuck rappelling off of hi-rises and such) They'd be begging for a ticket then.

Seems like a call to the PD ahead of time would have prevented all the problems.

Maybe next time.

Quoted: now playing with toy guns in public is illegal? jackasses

probably legal but once it causes public alarm then it'd be illegal.  

What if you  saw a bunch of ROP's playing witih airsoft at your local school, mall, airport, courthouse, front yard?  Same difference

Just as an aside, it does not have to involve guns at all.  One of the local college theater classes filmed a "suicide" off a popular cliffside park right across from Doublefeed's office.  They used a store dummy dressed in jeans and a shirt, tossing it off the cliff, right next to the second busiest highway in town.

You've never seen a more pissed off rescue crew in your life when they rappelled 120 feet down a cliff to find a dummy.

That was 5 HOURS of  emergency response, around 9 firetrucks, police, even divers to search the lake. Over 150 personnel that were unavailable for other calls.

Quoted: Well that was stupid on several counts.. and why the hell were they in the alley and not the studio? For a different environment? Bah, roll up the mats.

Probably because the studio has mirrors and you probably don't want to be shooting plastic bbs that might hit them.

People need to use common sense. Not bright to practice outside with what looks to be real guns. Could have been ok with a heads up to the cops beforehand. The responding pd have no idea what is going on and someone could easily have be shot. All they probably received over the radio is a call of numerous subjects with weapons in an a alleyway. They would have responded with that in mind and personally I would have grabbed the ar or shotgun. The same stupidness applies for reality tv shows where they stage robberies or that type of stuff. If they tried that near me, or I was one of the passerbuys, somone whould end up injured or dead...

Quoted: Welcome to the land of the sheeple.  You do something besides go to work, go to the bar, and root for the most popular football/baseball/basketball team, and it scares the sheeple. Since the sheeple have been trained over the years to call 911 when they're scared, we get shit like this happening. I don't think the problem is with people having zero observational skills, or the police overreacting in this instance.  I think the problem is with the "OMG that's not normal call the police!" attitude that the majority of the sheeple have.

William Shatner: When seconds count! Dial 9-1-1!  *do do doo.... do do do da do*

Quoted: Just as an aside, it does not have to involve guns at all.  One of the local college theater classes filmed a "suicide" off a popular cliffside park right across from Doublefeed's office.  They used a store dummy dressed in jeans and a shirt, tossing it off the cliff, right next to the second busiest highway in town. You've never seen a more pissed off rescue crew in your life when they rappelled 120 feet down a cliff to find a dummy. That was 5 HOURS of  emergency response, around 9 firetrucks, police, even divers to search the lake. Over 150 personnel that were unavailable for other calls.

Well, when the fabled ROPers attack again, they'll have it easy stageing a diversion.

You guys do know that the place is owened by Hooch, one of the mods over at assaultweb.

Thread for it there is here

HEY COPS: give them a break and give their toy guns back (and I hate airsoft).  They just want a way to protect themselves when you're not around.

HEY STUDENTS: next time mark off the area somehow, engineer tape or hunting tape doesn't cost that much.  Make it obvious that you're not really robbing someone.

Quoted: Admittedly, a bone-headed move on the instructors and the students...hello, McFly?  But still, what kind of limp-dicked jerkwad calls the PD to report something like this?  People today have zero observational skills and even less common sense.

+10,000 and an admonishment to the fucking idiot cops who aren't smart enough or decent enough to exercise a little fucking judgment!!! good community work there, deputy fife!

Quoted: Admittedly, a bone-headed move on the instructors and the students...hello, McFly?   But still, what kind of limp-dicked jerkwad calls the PD to report something like this? People today have zero observational skills and even less common sense. 10-32

Not the 38 people who listened to Kitty Genovese being murdered in NYC years ago- and did nothing. Driving by an alley on the highway probably didn't give the driver much time to take in the scene.

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/mooreportal/kitty.html

The JBTs still felt the need to issue a citation.

standard result from any leo-civilian interaction.

A family vacation for Scott Turner, owner of Turner's Taekwondo Inc., came to a quick end when he received a call from one of his instructors saying his students, practicing gun self-defense, had just been handcuffed and held on the ground at gunpoint by Albany police.

marked to show unloaded?  Sounds more like one of the instructors whose had one too many kicks to the head decided to try something new while the boss was out of town.

No indication on how they were marked .

But it got the noob jbt bashers another excuse to beat-off and whine at the same time here didn't it?

Quoted: marked to show unloaded?  Sounds more like one of the instructors whose had one too many kicks to the head decided to try something new while the boss was out of town. No indication on how they were marked .

FWIW ASP markets a line of "red guns"  hard rubber moldings of actual firearms that most LE agencies use for practising take aways and such. they even fit in standard holsters but do not fire any type of projectile and are unlikely to be mistaken for a rreal gun by any cop who went through the academy in the last 10 years.

Might be a good piece of gear for the well stocked martial arts studio to have on hand.

Is this Albany,NY?

The police of that city are a joke! Their corrupt scum that overlook most crime anyway. But if some people are practicing martial arts on their own property they're evil.

But if there's a REAL crime going on, they're nowhere to be seen. They're big and bad toward harmless citizens but when push comes to shove the criminal reigns supreme.

Crime has been increasing in the area because the local numbnut police won't do their jobs. It was so much of a problem that state police had to step in along with the guardian angels. The local pigs had a fit about it though because it threatened their livelihood and they didn't want them to see how they really do their jobs. And that's why they restricted the state troopers and guardian angels to weekend-only duty. They're not allowed in the city during the weekdays.

That's Albany, NY. So remember that before you go defending these POS's.

Quoted: more asshole behavior from cops now playing with toy guns in public is illegal? jackasses

same shit from the same people no matter what if LEO is in the thread

Quoted: standard result from any leo-civilian interaction.

yup

maximum fine of $2,500




We want $$$$$$ from you or else....

The citations sound like BS to me. A simple "you guys work something else out please, the neighbors are getting sand in their manginas" would've worked just as well.

Turner has operated his martial arts business in Albany for 12 years. During all that time, students have practiced tactics outside, Turner said. [ ... ] Turner said officers have driven by at other times, and watched them or asked what was going on, but no one had ever been issued a citation or even been told to go inside. [ ... ] A call to the police department or signs in the alley stating that training was in session could have prevented the whole episode, Atchley said. "There was no indication to us this was a training exercise."

Yeah, funny thing. When I used to work out at the GM Proving Grounds and we [ERT] burned cars to practice putting out fires we'd always call the local fire department first to make sure they knew what we were doing and didn't send units out. Imagine that.

I took a lot of shit in the Team forum by telling a member that he should say "fuck you" to the realtor who wanted him to hide all his gun shit so that sheeple wouldn't be scared.

THIS story is the natural and probable result of us taking our hobby underground.

People freak right the fuck out like this because they have no frame of reference.

Reminds me of Police Squad, with Drebin and the Mayor:

Mayor: Now Drebin, I don't want any trouble like you had on the South Side like last year, that's my policy.
Frank: Well, when I see five weirdos dressed in togas, stabbing a man in the middle of the park in front of a full view of 100 people, I shoot the bastards, that's my policy.
Mayor: That was a Shakesphere In The Park Production of Julius Caesar, you moron! You killed five actors! Good ones!

Steven

ETA:  This happened in Albany, Oregon, we have a good friend on the force there, I will try to ask what happened from their side.