User Panel
Posted: 8/8/2005 6:16:16 AM EDT
To get away from all the political talk, what's your opinon re bull-pup assault rifles...
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as19-e.htm http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm http://world.guns.ru/assault/as40-e.htm |
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I love the bullpup concept, especially with the execution of it in the Steyr Aug. It's a great way to keep barrel length to improve bullet performance, without sacrificing mobility with the weapon.
Having a 20" barrel on a bullpup platform will give the round higher velocity and will improve terminal ballistics at your target, while keeping the weapon in an M4ish size, even smaller. |
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Bullpup rifles allow you to have a shorter rifle with a full length barrel. Some have been cited (I never handled one) for having poor reloading ergonomics and bad triggers, but if Bushmaster ever made their rifle a little less corny I would buy one.
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I agree about the M17S or whatever it is that BM sells. It looks wayy too corny for me to purchase one.
While firing a Steyr Aug from a generous range friend, I found it's ergonomics and trigger to be pleasing. Just my take on it. |
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Sucks.
Maybe for Southpaws, but its inherent flaws would be a problem even for them... Eric The(Opinionated)Hun |
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Having the right tool for the right job makes everything easier.
ETA: I love the concept, not necessarily the design! |
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Where is that opinion from the Aussie Sargeant about his country's severe problems with the Steyr AUG?
I used to have it bookmarked for discussions such as this. Eric The(GooglingHisTailOff)Hun |
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I understand the concept of why they are a good thing.
But I have never found a bull pup design that I liked (and yes, I've fired many). |
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i tell you what, it's kinda scary hearing that bolt slamming back and forth right next to your face as opposed to it being in front! loading's not that bad even for a bullpup ak. just takes a little practice and getting used to it.
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fs2000, already got mine preorderd. But its gonna come in a goofy color
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I am seriously thinking of getting the FS 2000 when it comes out. One of my concerns is, what happens if there is a kaboom? It seems like you could easily sustain severe facial injury in such a case, as opposed to only extremities.
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Seems to me if properly designed they would be a good tool for certain situations. Don't think they are a unviersal can opener though.
For short range and confined spaces, they would probably be a better options than what we use. I suspect if standard rifles with a simular barrel length would be easer to control for accuracy though. Likewise, in this world of optics, the reduced sighting plain would not be as big of hinderance. In theory a kaboom would hurt more (especially if ammo was sabatoged (which is a good psycological tactic). I would enjoy having one. |
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Wear a football helmet at the range. I do. It also keeps me from licking my grape flavored windows. |
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I'm on record as loving the things. The slower mag reload isn't much of a problem when you're talking about an entire squad shooting. The off-hand issue is a slight catch, but there is a method of shooting around a 'wrong' corner involving leaning 'sideways'. The Brits seem to have managed to take Basra and Um Qasr with their bullpups, some of that was heavy fighting. Yes, you expose more of yourself, but it's considered an acceptable compromise when compared to all the other benefits. Point of balance is usually directly above the pistol grip, as opposed to the nose-heavy attitude of conventional rifles. 22" barrell in a weapon shorter than an M-4 carbine.
NTM |
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ergonomcally retarded
I have shot the SA-80 Aug FMAS M17 Didnt like any of them. I think you have to fiddle around too much to change mags and operate the weapon in general. |
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That's what they make spray paint for brother! ~Dg84 |
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Bullpups are the wave of the future. In 100 years I bet 90% of the worlds militaries use them.
Honestly how common is shooting "off hand" anyway? If its SUCH a problem put your SAW gunner out there on the left. Besides newer designs from FN, P90 and F2000, have ejection systems that put the casings under the gun anyway. Unbalanced is a crock. With all the optics, lights and lasers on everyone ninja guns on here, none of them are balanced any worse than a bullpup is. Hand to hand? SHOOT the fool! This isn't a bayonet charge, run out of ammo reload or switch to side arm. If your in hand to hand and do not have anymore rounds your in a world of hurt besides hanving a shorter weapon to use as a spear. Bullpup with a tristacked or quadstacked mag (50-60 rounds per mag) and a HBAR type barrel. Would elminate need for a SAW. |
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If you're using the sights, isn't your head right there at the chamber?
Seems like a potentially bad situation to me. What about sighting distance as well - wouldn't it have a very short sight radius? |
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You are screwed either way if you gun goes kaboom, so relax and don't worry about it. Most modern firearms can mount good optics as primary sights, sight radius not an issue IMO. |
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100 years, eh? Won't we have phasers by then? |
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In fairness, the British do seem to have a tradition of getting one or two good bayonet charges in in every war. The current goings-on in Iraq appear to be no different. And they still won. "It's not size that counts, it's how you use it!"
When was the last US Army or USMC bayonet charge, out of interest? NTM |
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/10,001) +1 Bullpups are cool, I would love to have a compact rifle with a full length barrel. |
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Some bullpups allow you to switch the ejection port side from left to right. |
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Aussies made their own AUGs to a much lower standard than Austria. AUGs can be fired from the offhand, you just can't put your face over or near the ejection port. A little unerving but it can be done if needed. AUG mag changes can be done just as fast as more rifles and faster than an AK if you know the proper way. |
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Hey, its a super soaker! -Storm |
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That is exactly what I was thinking...it looks SOOOO bulky. It must be 5" wide. |
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cool concept, but not great for lefties. The Kb might be a problem too.
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Hell, get the FS2000 then. You get the good parts of a bullpup (short overall length w/ decent length barrel) and you get forward ejecting so you don't have to worry about how you hold it. Hell, since it's a delayed eject anyway I'm betting the brass has cooled off a considerable amount before it comes out. KBs are a problem nomatter if you're using a bullpup or a traditional rifle. It doesn't matter. |
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What's the sight radius on an AK? |
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Marines actually have done at least one bayonet charge that I know of if Iraq. I can't remember if they actually got in hand to hand though. Of course most Marines still carry M16A2s. |
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Which now you mention it raises another point. With the increasing prevalence of the M-4 carbine as the 'weapon of choice' for the US Army, the shorter length of the bullpup in hand-to-hand bayoneting vs a 'standard' rifle becomes irrelevant.
try joining the military and doing MOUT work you half to position your weapon in all kinds of strange angles Try doing MOUT work with a full-length M-16A2. There's a reason the M-4s were in high demand. When 'stacking', we were taught to hold an A2 in such a manner that the stock was resting on top of the shoulder, and sticking over the back in order to make the thing shorter and less unwieldy. If you get an M-4, you lose the long barrel the bullpup has. If you get a bullpup (bar central-ejecting ones), you lose the ability to shoot wrong-handed. It's all a compromise. The long A2s were also problematic for us in the vehicles. Hard to find where to fit them in the tank. NTM |
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Once again Steyr AUG is right. I own two Steyr AUGs and with a little practice you can preform mag changes with a AUG has fast has a M1A, AK47, or HK91. A Second complaint is the ergonomics of a bullpup is bad. This is BS, my AUG feels just as balanced and comfortable to shoot as my AR15. Another bullpup complaint is that the trigger suck, I can not speak for a FAMAS or FN2000 but the Steyr AUG has a 7 or 8 pound trigger which is better than a HK. Finally, the new complaint about bullpups is the chance they will KB. Well if you are that worried about firearms and the very slim chance they will KB, then you should not use a gun at all. There have been plenty of pictures posted here of Glocks, 1911, USPs ARs, and FALs with KB damage. And many of use have Glocks,1911, USP, ARs and FALs in our safes. I enjoy shooting/hunting bullpup rifles, granted I am not in Law Enforcement or the Military so I can not comment on bullpups as a combat weapon, but IMO the AUG is a well built weapon that is just as good as a HK, FN or AR. |
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Its funny how all of the comments I've ever read from Aussie and Austrian soldiers say that reloads and MOUT are not a problem. They are trained on bullpups from day one so they have no conflicting habits to unlearn.
The SA80 was a failure not because it is a bullpup but because of a bad design. And anti-French comments not withstanding, I have never heard any negative remarks about the FAMAS. The latest rifles from Israel, Singapore, South Africa, China have all been bullpups... And for those that use the left side of cover arguement against bullpups, here is a quote from the USMC Rifle Marksmanship training manual
Here is the link to it Page 6-5 |
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I always wanted a FAMAS. I also like Israel's TAVOR. I'm not really sure if bullpups are good or bad, though, I never even handled one. |
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If the SAW Gunner is dead of out of action someone should be using the SAW. Its the weapon with the most direct firepower at the squad level, it should always be in action.
Besides if the design adopted had a downward ejecting, or front ejecting brass then this wouldn't even nee to be an issue. |
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+1 I burned the fuck out of my ear with some hot brass when I was in the Army due to this sort of thing. I'd rather take a slightly longer rifle instead of locking myself out of 50% of the possible shooting positions. |
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