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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:17:25 PM EDT
She's gone now… the end of an era… I'll miss her.
 Roll on the 'new' carriers in 2012 ANdy Event marks end of HMS Invincible  HMS Invincible  A piper plays as HMS Invincible sails into port for the last time A ceremony to mark the retirement of the flagship of the Royal Navy has taken place, amid fears that it will leave the service overstretched. The event in Portsmouth marked HMS Invincible's 25 years of service, which includes the Falklands war in 1982. The aircraft carrier will be de-commissioned and sold in 2010. Critics are worried that Invincible's retirement has left the navy with only one aircraft carrier, HMS Illustrious, while HMS Ark Royal undergoes a refit. Mothballed Captain Neil Morisetti, Invincible's commanding officer, said the event was an opportunity to "celebrate not only her 25 years of service but also the hard work and dedication shown by members of the ship's company past and present". The Ministry of Defence (MoD) said Invincible would be gradually relieved of its crew and captain soon after the decommissioning ceremony. The crew will be given new postings and the vessel will be handed over to the MoD's Disposal and Reserve Ships Organisation where it will be mothballed until it is sold. The carrier was launched by the Queen in 1977. The Duke of York was based on board as a Sea King helicopter pilot during the Falklands war. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/4738463.stm |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:25:15 PM EDT
[#1]
Why is she being retired? No money in the budget? That sucks.
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:27:09 PM EDT
[#2]
Up for sale in 2010
Time to start doing the arfcom bake-sale fundraisers so we can buy it! |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:27:43 PM EDT
[#3]
How long until Ark Royal is out of retrofit?
Kharn |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:29:03 PM EDT
[#4]
What are the new British carriers going to be like? Nimitz-sized?
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:29:11 PM EDT
[#5]
Seems like they would keep at least two going at all times.
What's the deal with the NY 04 on the deck? |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:30:32 PM EDT
[#6]
Who's going to buy it?
India again? Maybe the Aussies can scrape up some dough... |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:34:04 PM EDT
[#7]
It was on her visit to New York…I posted pics at the time. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:34:55 PM EDT
[#8]
Gotta pay for the War on Terror somehow… and that's how much it is hurting us financialy. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:35:34 PM EDT
[#9]
HMS ARFCOM
HMS IBTL HMS +1 |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:35:43 PM EDT
[#10]
Almost certainly, they have expressed an 'interest' for her. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:38:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Early next year… ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:39:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Naw, its all the DOLE handouts. Hey, maybe they could tax gun sales in the UK to pay for the war. 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:41:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Bullshit. Quit paying for terrorists to live in England. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:47:09 PM EDT
[#14]
900ftish, 65,000 tons, 45 F-35's, 4 helos, 4 AWCS  ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 2:51:04 PM EDT
[#15]
Bullshit yourself!!! The Defence Budget is limited… we have a large chunk of the Army in Iraq and Afghanistan, so the navy takes the cuts to pay for the Army… pretty much the same way as Congress is spending gazzilions on the Army and leaving the USN short. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:03:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Gas turbine powered? |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:10:49 PM EDT
[#17]
Yes, driving generators and electric motors. It will use the same propulsion system as the UK T45 and US DDX destroyers. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:13:11 PM EDT
[#18]
Retrofit or refit? 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:32:30 PM EDT
[#19]
God that's just sad!! Don't think we don't appreciate how Great Britain is the US's greatest friend and ally. Thanks Andy and all for your sacrifices. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 3:55:24 PM EDT
[#20]
+1 on that. God bless them. |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:18:45 PM EDT
[#21]
Bah....this is what a real carrier looks like...diesels are for trucks & ski jumps are for resorts.
 Split the atom baby! 
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:40:04 PM EDT
[#22]
I remember someone posting that the F-35 was going to be canceled. True or False? |
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Posted: 8/3/2005 6:56:01 PM EDT
[#23]
The STOVL (vertical take-off) version seems to have 'issues', the British MoD are now looking at maybe buying the CTOL (US Navy) Version. But the F-35 project is very much a 'Go'… ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 6:30:56 AM EDT
[#24]
What's the real point in using STOVL F-35's in a carrier of that size? It's got more than enough room for the USN version. Plus, the RN would get an aircraft with longer range, better payload, etc. And they'd be able to cross-deck with US carriers. The only advantage I can see to the STOVL version would be if you wanted to operate it off the HMS Ocean, or one of the Invincible class ships. What's the STOVL obsession for? |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 6:45:16 AM EDT
[#25]
It's an 'Air Force' thing! The Royal Navy are happy to go with cats and wires, but 70% of the F-35 fleet will belong to the RAF. The idea is than during normal operations the RAF will supply 50% of the aircrew and aircraft on the carriers, but during hostilities the air groups will be upped to max strength using RAF crews. The RAF pilots can be converted to carrier qualified in about 30 minutes using STOVL F-35's as the planes auto recover under computer control. If they go with the F-35C or F/A-18E the RAF will need to spend months carrier qualifing its pilots and they don't want to do that! Thei Air Force pilots find it hard enough to land on a 2 mile runway that don't move!. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 6:52:02 AM EDT
[#26]
The purchase price is only a small portion of the costs, like all water craft, maintenance is pretty expensive also. |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 8:23:31 AM EDT
[#27]
No, Aus won't buy it. We bought it once already (I'm NOT making that up). The UK decided it didn't need as many carriers as it had and at the same time the RAN was looking for a replacement for it's one carrier that was too worn out to fix up and keep running. What an amazing coincidence. The ink was actually dry on the paperwork for the sale. All that was left was for the money and keys to change hands. At that precise moment Argentina decided to send it's army on a suprise holiday to the Falklands and the UK govt thought "Maybe selling it wasn't such a great idea. We've changed our minds, we want to keep it now". The Aus govt said "Bloody poms, you'll whinge about anything. Ok, keep the damn thing if it will shut you up for 5 minutes." The UK did offer us Hermes with some early model Sea Harriers hidden in the trunk after the kerfuffle in the south Atlantic was over, but Hermes was laid down in WW2 and Aus had just decomissioned a carrier of the same vintage (HMAS Melbourne, ex-HMS Majestic, THE HMAS Melbourne that cut two escort ships in half, HMAS Voyager and USS Frank E Evens). Hermes was on her last legs and accepting the Harriers would have involved integrating a small number of completely different aircraft into the Aus inventory (have to buy spare parts, train pilots, train maintenance crew, etc), so Aus said "No thanks, we've decided we don't need a carrier now". |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 8:26:46 AM EDT
[#28]
They need to retire Invincible down the the Falklands. The islanders will take good care of her.
GunLvr |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 8:30:18 AM EDT
[#29]
Remember that well… You're right, Austraila is not in the running, it wants a couple of new assault ships, probably based on the San Antonio-class LPD design. India is the 'name in the frame' to buy it to replace the old Hermes they bought. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 8:52:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Considering how long India and Russia have been "negotiating" over the fourth Kiev class, Gorshkov, don't hold your breath for a quick sale of Invincible to India. The Aus govt is getting close to signing the contract for three new guided missile destroyers. They're still looking at exactly which bid they will go with but the govt has already stated that AEGIS is a mandatory requirement in any bid that wants to be taken seriously, and a version of Bazan's F-100 design (Bazan is a Spanish shipyard) design seems to be a warm favourite. A version of the Arleigh Burke design is also in consideration. There's a third bid based on a German design (the RAN is already operating some MEKO frigates as the "Anzac" class) but I really don't know how it rates beside the other two. These destroyers will be on top of some new 'phibs for the RAN. Then there's the refurbished M-1A1 Abrams tanks the govt has already agreed to buy for the Aus army (the Leopard-1's have just become too vulnerable to current man-portable anti-tank weapons) and the new Boeing 737-700 based AWACS aircraft for the RAAF (1st one was delivered in March this year). The Aus Dept of Defence is getting a whole bag of shiney new toys from John "Santa" Howard.
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Posted: 8/4/2005 9:28:53 AM EDT
[#31]
Now that makes sense... Is the RAF buying only STOVL F-35's, or are they buying CTOL F-35's too? |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 10:56:03 AM EDT
[#32]
I've heard it will be sold as a 'knock down' price job lot along with some Harriers… it will be cheap and a 'going concern'…and India desperately needs a working carrier soon. Good guy Howard, at long last the Ozzie Armed Forces are being equipped with some seriously good gear! OK the Collins Class seem to be a bit of a turkey, but the ANZAC frigates have been a great sucess. Chuck in an expected order for a large number of F-35's and you're good to go!  ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 10:59:02 AM EDT
[#33]
AT the moment only STOVL F-35's are being considered, but that may change at the end of the year. I've heard they are now considering buying the F-35C version as the STOVL version is slipping it's in service date. That would mandate a flat top carrier, but that's no bad thing. ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 11:07:44 AM EDT
[#34]
Suprising. I would think that the RAF would be interested in A or C models - longer range, bigger payload. Heck, even with a mix (say 50/50 STOVL) the RAF could still add a 'surge' capacity to the RN carriers - they just would only be able to deploy their STOVL a/c aboard 'easily'. |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 11:18:21 AM EDT
[#35]
The Collins class subs aren't as bad as the media have made them out to be, but there have been problems. The design was an enlargement of a Swedish design from Kockums, but it was bigger than Kockums were used to dealing with, so the hull had more flow noise than was anticipated. Some additional modifications to reshape the external hull seems to have addresed that issue. The prop design was also noisier than expected as well, but new props have been made and fitted (at least the props don't fall off in mid-ocean like Charles de Gaulle).
The biggest problem has been the electronics combat systems the subs were originally fitted with. A replacement system has been selected, a "light" version of the AN/BYG-1 combat suite and weapons integration panel used in the US Virginia class. 2010 is the projected date for all Collins subs to have the new systems installed. The problem with the original systems that were fitted seems to be the RAN bods changing their minds about what they wanted part way through the whole process, and ending up with a previously untested combination of individual systems as the "combat suite" as a result. The individual systems all apparently work as advertised, but the cross system integration to link them together properly has been the stumbling block. Apparently the problems have been so great that it's become easier to replace the existing suite with a new one rather than iron out the existing problems. |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 11:21:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Well it's nice to see that the Ozzie bods are as bad as the bods in the 'Mother Country' for getting it wrong! ANdy |
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Posted: 8/4/2005 11:23:30 AM EDT
[#37]
Whatever version they go with has to be carrier capable… that's a cast iron requirement. If the UK pulls out of the F-35 project, (and there are murmurings), the RAF and RN will get the F/A-18E Super Hornet. ANdy |
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