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Posted: 7/12/2001 12:37:18 PM EDT
[#1]
i think a well placed round from either inside 300 will be more than lethal. Assuming open ground. If you had to fire through glass or door i'd opt for the .308.
Due to changing enviorments the .308 i believe would be the better choice. jmho mike |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 12:38:21 PM EDT
[#2]
Well here are some Federal Cartridge specs:
Energy 100yds 500yds 223/55gr 1060 460 308/150gr 2285 1205 Out past a couple hundred yards the 308 win has SERIOUSLY more energy. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 12:46:36 PM EDT
[#3]
Wow, the .308 has more energy at 500 then the .223 at 100!
How does the fragmenting of the .223 come into the picture. Could a fragmenting .223 round do more damage even though it doesn't have as much energy? |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 12:50:23 PM EDT
[#4]
my understanding is the .223 will not fragment below 2700fps. therfore at long range you just get a high velocity .22 sized hole
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Posted: 7/12/2001 12:55:36 PM EDT
[#5]
I don't think the rounds would interchange.
Sure, they'd both be .223s, and in interchangeable mags, but the designated marksman had better be using match ammo, which would cycle fine in both weapons, but the other guys probably won't be using match ammo. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 1:06:34 PM EDT
[#6]
Good point. But you could use the regular .223 if you had to and still get pretty good shots off.
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Posted: 7/12/2001 1:26:53 PM EDT
[#7]
Go with the .50BMG. [sniper]
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Posted: 7/12/2001 1:30:45 PM EDT
[#8]
By the way the the average range for police snipers is about 76 yards.
The average range for military snipers depending on the situation averages between 500 and 900 yards. WAY too far away for little 5.56mm round to do any damage. Just wanted to clear that up. :) |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 2:12:06 PM EDT
[#9]
Find a VHS tape of that hostage take over, I think it is a Best Buy or Fry's, somewhere up in Northern Kali several years ago. The police sniper I believe was using a bolt action .223, and had a clean shot of one of the bandits. The bandit was standing behind a store front window, guarding the hostages. The sniper took the shot and all hell broke loose shortly after. The glass shattered but the .223 deflected and missed it's target. This AK-47 toting gunman flinched at first, mostly from the flying glass but then proceeded to run down the line of hostages against the wall, shooting each one in the chest. I believe that the bandits were all killed in the following malee, taking with them a good number of the hostages too.
The sniper should have been using a .308, minimum, or .300 winmag, ideally. Even though his shot was probably under 100 yards, a .223 can't be counted on to go through normal building materials and hit it's intended target. Hostage takers rarely make themselves wide open targets, shooting through objects or walls have to be taken into consideration when choosing a sniper caliber. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 2:13:18 PM EDT
[#10]
I would choose my weapon based on my enviorment. In an urban area the AR15 should do just fine. In wide open areas and canyons I like the .308 because it has been used as a sniper round for years with great success.
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Posted: 7/12/2001 7:17:05 PM EDT
[#11]
Have you noticed many of the special forces snipers are going even higher than .308?
300WM is getting more and more popular. The .223 is a great duty round, and you can carry lots of ammo. But a sniper is a different animal, the .308 I think would be a minimum. If you want the AR style, there are still choices. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 7:27:29 PM EDT
[#12]
What about 69gr or heavier bullet for the AR? Would it help that much. I know the .308 is much better for sniper work but I just love my AR.
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Posted: 7/12/2001 7:52:42 PM EDT
[#13]
Anyone agree that maybe if we used the term"long range rifle" instead of "sniper rifle"we just might not get as much heat from the anti's.just a thought.mmk
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:02:13 PM EDT
[#14]
AT 76 Yards with no cover for the perp., you can use just about anything. I've shot .22LR @100 Yards with no problems.
Note: This Chart Lists Match Grade or Premium Ammo. Caliber..Muzzle.100 Yd..300 Yd..500 Yd..1000 Yd. .223......1380....1135....750.....475.....170 .270......2705....2305...1655....1390.....--- .30-06....2720....2350...1720....1230.....530 .308......2995....2585...1905....1370.....565 7.62 mm...1445....1125....655.....395.....--- .300 Mag..3570....3055...2205....1560.....--- .338 Mag..3860....3290...2340....1630.....--- 7mm Mag...3180....2720...1960....1370.....--- |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:10:30 PM EDT
[#15]
A rifle in the hands of a Sniper is a Sniper Rifle.
A Sniper Rifle in the hands of anyone else is just a rifle. It's been said before, But worth repeating: A weapon is only as effective as the person who wields it. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:12:03 PM EDT
[#16]
Originally Posted By The Beer Slayer: my understanding is the .223 will not fragment below 2700fps. therfore at long range you just get a high velocity .22 sized hole Two words...Soft points. No need for fragmention. I don't know at what velocity they will fail to expand but I'm willing to guess it is pretty low.[uzi] |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:16:12 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: The average range for military snipers depending on the situation averages between 500 and 900 yards. WAY too far away for little 5.56mm round to do any damage. Just wanted to clear that up. Where did you come up with that "average"? Do you really belive a 5.56mm bullet will not do "any damage" at those ranges? I believe the DOD determined it takes approximately 40Ft-Lbs of energy for a bullet/bomb fragment/shrapnel to inflict a casualty. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:18:31 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Have you noticed many of the special forces snipers are going even higher than .308? You have it backwards. The trend is towards lighter calibers. Those .300 Win Mags and .338 Lapua mags are replacing the 50BMG "sniper" rifles, not the .308 rifles. The Marine Corp Gazette reports The US Marines are currently testing new sniper rifle calibers. The early results are promising. They are getting faster & more accurate hits with a 6mm bullet than with their .308s. http://assaultweb.net/ubb/Forum22/HTML/000669.html In Latin American the little .243 has largly replaced the heavier .308 for police snipers. The 5.56mm is already dominating DCM & NRA highpower competition and is becoming competitive in the 1000 yard matches. |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:20:53 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted: Find a VHS tape of that hostage take over, I think it is a Best Buy or Fry's, somewhere up in Northern Kali several years ago. It was a Circuit City in Sacramento that was taken over by a Vietnamese gang. The police sniper I believe was using a bolt action .223, and had a clean shot of one of the bandits. The bandit was standing behind a store front window, guarding the hostages. The sniper took the shot and all hell broke loose shortly after. The glass shattered but the .223 deflected and missed it's target. This AK-47 toting gunman flinched at first, mostly from the flying glass but then proceeded to run down the line of hostages against the wall, shooting each one in the chest. I believe that the bandits were all killed in the following malee, taking with them a good number of the hostages too. The sniper should have been using a .308, minimum, or .300 winmag, ideally. Even though his shot was probably under 100 yards, a .223 can't be counted on to go through normal building materials and hit it's intended target. Hostage takers rarely make themselves wide open targets, shooting through objects or walls have to be taken into consideration when choosing a sniper caliber. That's very true. The .223 round is VERY limited in the sniper role, even for police use, as this incident illustrates. The "correct" proceedure would be to have two riflemen, one taking a shot a half-second before the other. The leading shot shatters the glass, and in most cases is deflected. The second shot hits the bad guy. Both rifles should be .308 or better, IMO. As stated, .223 is fine out to 150 yards from a 20" or longer barrel, IF the target is out in the open. Behind cover, it will be very difficult to penetrate and *still do sufficient damage* so that the bad guy is taken out of the fight immediately. A .308 or larger rifle can penetrate light cover and still put the bad guy down. Make no mistake; the role of a sniper, and the needs of his equipment, is very, VERY different from those of the rest of the SWAT team or infantry platoon. -Troy |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:22:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Originally Posted By madman kirk: Anyone agree that maybe if we used the term"long range rifle" instead of "sniper rifle"we just might get as much heat from the anti's.just a thought.mmk I have to agree 100% those dirt bags will stop at nothing to mess with us and are using our own words against up. Seems like everyone with a precision long range weapon or equipment refers to them as sniper goods as well as the guys that refer to AR's, AK's and others as Assault weapons. I am guilty of it myself in the past and this isn't a flame of any kind aimed towards GeoffM24 or anyone else but I do think it is something that we need to think about as we have enough trouble keeping our rights as it is. I will get off my soap box now as I know i am sounding upity... [:|] |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 8:29:46 PM EDT
[#21]
WRONG !
Check the link about AE223 http://www.federalcartridge.com/andex6.html |
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Posted: 7/12/2001 10:28:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Comparing a .223 to a .308 is like comparing a 9MM to a .45 ACP.
Ok, ok, - not a perfect comparison. Handgun cartridges are so weak (relatively speaking) that performance differences between them are really significant. This isn’t true with rifle cartridges in SOME situations. Regardless, the .223’s strengths involve being able to carry and fire a lot of rounds. In some cases, its lack of penetration is also considered a strength. These are the .308’s weaknesses; its strengths are its power, range and ability to penetrate. Sniper rifles (or precision rifles, if you wish) don’t need the former; they need the latter. |
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Posted: 7/13/2001 6:32:44 AM EDT
[#23]
I read somewhere that the .223 should only be used for close range headshots because of the fact the fact that its fragmentation mean limited penetration and a spine shot is difficult because of its small temporary stretch cavity. There have been many situations where a suspect has not been incapicated from a perfectly placed center of mass shot from a .223
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Posted: 7/13/2001 10:14:09 AM EDT
[#24]
Originally Posted By The Beer Slayer: my understanding is the .223 will not fragment below 2700fps. therfore at long range you just get a high velocity .22 sized hole Using Federal Cartridge specs, the 223 round drops below 2700fps around 200 yards. But the 223 round can be effective past 200, especially using the M16 burst mode. But in terms of explosive velocity, its over past 200 yards. |
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Posted: 7/13/2001 11:52:34 AM EDT
[#25]
A military sniper is told 1 shot one kill, not one shot one wounded. the 223 might make large wounds and that's great for close combat, but a sniper is out there to kill.
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Posted: 7/14/2001 12:28:44 AM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: I really like the look of a nice 24" freefloating scoped sniper AR, but I have read that the .223 isn't the best long range round. The .223 is OK for paper at long ranges but isn't likely to kill at extended distances. Course cops can't really make a case for killing someone at 1000 yards unless they're are mind readers. "God, green light" "Roger Six" BANG! "Damn, he surrendered." SPLAT! "Double damn" But, as for the [b]merits[/b] of the AR as a sniper's rifle you can list; Low recoil for fast follow up shots. Self loading for the same reason. Doesn't automatically mark the bearer as a "sniper" like a 26" barrelled bolt gun does. Convertible configs by switching uppers, like a suppressed unit or a rimfire for taking out lights. Easily suppressed with a muzzle can and subsonic ammo for dogs and such. Most likely cheaper. Lighter. Most cops are already familiar with the M16. Less penetrative than .308, but still works well on body armor. More frangible, important in richochet prone areas. All this, [b]inside[/b] 100 yards of course. I think I'll still be dragging my 700P tho with my 16" barrelled, folding stocked, flash suppressed, bayonet mounted, twelve shot, Ishapore Enfield .308 in the trunk. Why? Because .308 API-T beats .223 AP in every way. [;D] |
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