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Posted: 5/23/2005 5:56:57 AM EDT
[#1]
Comment: Your link doesn't work.  Sorry, Unable to process request at this time -- error 999. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 5:57:02 AM EDT
[#2]
I think Tillman's parents should put the lid on all that whining.
Friendly fire accidents happen in the fog of war, regrettably, and the US Army investigated it with as much thoroughness as I would think was justified under the circumstances! They took as much time as possible to insure that they knew what happened, and any delay in telling the parents and family of Pat Tillman were understandable, under these conditions. To blame this delay on the Bush Administration is simply incredible! Eric The(Reasonable,AsAlways)Hun 
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:13:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Pat Tillman died serving his nation. For which I will FOREVER be grateful.
Leave it at that. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:19:37 AM EDT
[#4]
Amen. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:29:26 AM EDT
[#5]
The only problem is the army KNEW what happened and chose to USE Pat Tillman's death as a "hoorah" recruiting device. They also chose to LIE to his parents. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:38:26 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:39:20 AM EDT
[#7]
Impossible. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 6:39:22 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
No, they didn't. It took them weeks to interview the soldiers involved in this incident. They may have suspected something like this had happened, but can we blame them for seeking to make absolutely 100% certain what actually occurred BEFORE breaking this tragic story to his family? I think they did precisely what they should have done.
Just as Pat Tillman would have wished them to, as well. Anything wrong with that? And even IF his death was the result of 'friendly fire', why should that prevent the courage and honor shown by Pat Tillman NOT be celebrated as an example of self-sacrificing patriotism? And used by the US Army as a 'recruiting device'? Say, are you the Public Relations Director at al Jazzera, the Arabic news service?
Actually, I think the US Army told the truth to his family as soon as they were assured that they knew what the truth was. As the 'story' carefully pointed out, the US Army waited until the 'formal report' was completed. So? What can possibly be wrong with waiting for a final report? Eric The(Bumfuzzled)Hun
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:02:28 AM EDT
[#9]
Some people can! Of course, those same people would cry for beheadings if they broke the news too early and it was wrong.
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:09:02 AM EDT
[#10]
"Immediately, the Army kept the soldiers on the ground quiet and told Tillman's family and the public that he was killed by enemy fire while storming a hill, barking orders to his fellow Rangers. After a public memorial service, at which Tillman received the Silver Star, the Army told Tillman's family what had really happened, that he had been killed by his own men."
I imagine that Pat Tillman was a man of integrity, as his parents appear to be. If they have a problem with this propaganda, I imagine that since they raised the man to be what he was, that he would also.
Are you an agent of the Ministry of Propaganda? Truth is more important to me than spin.
Right after the memorial service:
Also:
Wag the Dog:
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:16:13 AM EDT
[#11]
Somebody needs a WaaaaaAmbulance.
His parents need to STFU. What about all the other soldiers injured or killed by FF? Where are the articles in the media about them? |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:18:52 AM EDT
[#12]
These are emotionally based charges made by a family in mourning. Tillman and every other serviceman or woman who is killed while serving their country are heroes regardless of how they were killed.
It's also unfortunate that the Army PAO folks made statements based on unsubstantiated rumors before the investigation was over. But, that kind of off-the-cuff stuff happens all the time when you have enthusiastic young men and women working hard and to say they intentionally lied is ridiculous. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:21:27 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted from original article:
I'm as patriotic as the next guy but I think the lines above are very telling if true, it would not have been the first time the .gov has lied to us....... |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 7:21:36 AM EDT
[#14]
Personally, I think his parents earned the right to whine. I have no clue what really happened, and refuse to listen to speculation from either side. If it was me I would shrug it off. The man is a hero whether it was FF or not.
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Posted: 5/23/2005 9:35:12 AM EDT
[#15]
As the Army should have, it is the US Army’s job to win wars not to bare its soul and beat its breast about things than cannot be changed. Quite frankly the Army should have never revealed the fact that Tillman was killed by friendly fire, nobody needed to know. That fact should have been buried for some historian to discover in 25 years. Sometimes I believe we live in a world of children, do many of you here believe you can fight a war in the manner we have. If World War II had been publicized in this manner we would have quit in 1942. Pat Tillman died doing his duty… that is and was enough. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:00:20 AM EDT
[#16]
Remember the Sullivan brothers? The five brothers who died while serving on the USS Juneau?
Due to a torpedo hit, the ship's magazines exploded and the ship sank very rapidly. Due to the large explosion and the way the ship sank in minutes, the ships nearby radioed a B17 bomber the coordinates where the ship went down and left the area without searching for survivors. 115 of the crew, inculding at least one of the Sullivan brothers survived the sinking and were on rafts. A day or so later, a B17 sighted the rafts and sent a report to higher HQ. Due to a clerical error, the report wasn't seen for several days so a lot of those survivors died waiting for rescue, inculding the survivng Sullivan brothers. What did the parents do in this case? They went on tv and starred in commercials selling war bonds for the war effort! They basicially told the American people don't let my boys' sacrifice be in vain. It's a different world we live in today.  |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:07:05 AM EDT
[#17]
Isn't the fact the Army gave Tillman the Silver Star for heroically leading a charge and dying by enemy fire, when he really was killed by friendly-fire, a pretty good indicator that they tried to misrepresent what happened?
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:13:27 AM EDT
[#18]
VERY well said. We MUST remember the Army is NOT the US gov't, and have NO duty of disclosure. Their ONLY duty is to win wars. As such, they should have kept quiet about this, instead of punching themselves in the eye about it. As was said, Pat Tillman died doing his duty… that is and was enough. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:16:09 AM EDT
[#19]
YES! the public (& the parents) don't need to know the truth, it's none of there damn business
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:16:57 AM EDT
[#20]
The US Army is NOT the US gov't. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:21:15 AM EDT
[#21]
How the army used or intended to use Tillman's death as a recruiting tool, is unclear.
How those on the Left are using his Friendly Fire Death as a POLITICAL tool, is abundantly clear. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:25:15 AM EDT
[#22]
WTF ?!?! How is the Army (all of DOD for that matter) funded ? Who writes the IOU's for that $400-500 billion spent by DOD every year the last 4yrs ?? (and the $280-320 billion the previous decade) Is the Army part of the Department of Defense ? Is DOD part of the U.S. government ? Is the Secretary of Defense a cabinet level appointment of the executive branch that must be approved by the U.S. Senate ? Does the SecDef answer to the elected President of the USA ? Do the joint Chiefs of Staff answer to Congress & the Executive branch ? Is the Pesident the ELECTED leader of the executive branch; the commander in chief of all U.S. armed forces, a member of the U.S. government ? Does the President make a budget request every year to the House of Reperesenitives to fund the department of defense ? Does the Federal Office of managemnt & Budget have authority to audit the U.S Army & every other branch of the U.S. military ? Why would the U.S. Senate & House Armed Services committees (elected representatives of the legislative branch of the U.S. government) have oversite of the U.S. Military if it's not part of the U.S government  Are you familiar with the Freedom of Information Act ? |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:30:32 AM EDT
[#23]
 Let's see - YOU use dollars minted by teh US gov't, so I think all your personal secrets are now gov't property, and subject to full disclosure. Under your "logic" current battle plans should be revealed to the US press, cuz after all, we can't have the Army hiding things, can we?? |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:30:47 AM EDT
[#24]
That is EXACTLY what I meant… No it is not really any of their business as far as the Army’s mission is concerned… sorry is the way it should be like it or not. The Army’s mission should be the Army’s first concern. Nothing positive can possible come out of this public flogging of the Army. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:31:04 AM EDT
[#25]
YOu betcha. Even in this forum. Even in this thread. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:33:00 AM EDT
[#26]
the U.S. Mint's mint coins, the Federal Rserve prints dollars & sets monetary policy for the USA the Department of the treasury sells bonds to help fund the U.S. Government |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:33:11 AM EDT
[#27]
It's probably a good idea to use proper spelling and grammar, when calling someone ELSE a "moron". |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:36:47 AM EDT
[#28]
For thoes who cared it was reported he died "blue on blue" over then net the day after the inital reports of his passing.
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:37:01 AM EDT
[#29]
The unsaid… The press and left are using Pat Tillman’s death and anything else they can dig/make up (such as “Koran desecration”) as tools to try and hurt the war effort because they want the US to lose. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:46:41 AM EDT
[#30]
It's irrelevant. When a servicemember dies in theater, the family is notified immediately. They are told the FACTS. No assumptions, no guesses. Just facts. When a servicemember dies, and it is suspected that it was "blue on blue", there is a lenghty investigation to determine if there is fault. The "findings of fact" in such an investigation may take MONTHS before they are released. You simply cannot tell the Next Of Kin something that is an assumption or guess, EVEN IF there is evidence to support the assumption. Those are the rules. That's how it's done. I've made Casualty Calls before with incomplete information. It's awkward, but it's necessary. That the press, the Left and "some folks" here are apparently oblivious to how things actually occur in the REAL military, comes as no surprise. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:54:27 AM EDT
[#31]
your comparing apples & oranges !! I NEVER suggested revealing information before a military operation that would compromise security & cost the lives of soldiers is a good idea . BUT you however made the asinine statement that the U.S. Army was NOT the U.S. Government when in fact they are & that's where all the funding comes from(our fucking taxdollars) & they answer to our elected executive & legislative branches . The Army coming clean & telling the Truth AFTER an incident like this does not compromise security or endanger lives. It's called oversite & accountibility. Lessons can be learned from examining what happened in incidents like this to help reduce the chances of it from reoccurring. Friendly fire is a fact of modern combat, a risk all soldiers take, but we shouldn't bury the truth & pretend mistakes don't happen. They should be held to the same standard as the rest of our government. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 10:59:34 AM EDT
[#32]
More insults....good work. And what - the Army poking itself in the eye over Tillman's death is good for troop morale, and doesn't embolden the enemy? |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:02:29 AM EDT
[#33]
your focusing on my 2 verbal barbs at calling you silly names, none of the other stuff |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:04:56 AM EDT
[#34]
That's why name calling is an ineffective debating tool.
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:05:10 AM EDT
[#35]
the idea that the leaders of Radical Islam need soemthing like this to embolden themselves is laughable they're blowing themselves up daily in Iraq because they believe in all the crap fed to them by the radical Mullahs in Saudi Arabia & elsewhere, I doubt they think one high profile friendly fire incident is going to tuen the tide in this world wide religious war |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:07:16 AM EDT
[#36]
namecalling retracted, it's such a common thing on this board anymore hard not to succumb to it, when in Rome .... |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:12:48 AM EDT
[#37]
Fact is, the Army was not allowed to expand on the circumstances of Tillman's death, until the investigation was complete.
It would go against ALL regulations governing Casualty Notifications. Once the investigation was complete, the facts were released. They were not delayed, or obscured. They were released in a manner no different than had he been "Private Schmuckatelly" (or "LCpl Joe Bagadonuts"). But because Tillman's a celebrity, people assume that there are different rules. There aren't. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:13:09 AM EDT
[#38]
Because I cannot follow your "logic" and am weary of your insults. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:16:31 AM EDT
[#39]
This does pretty much say it all. Did the parents hire a PI and that was the investigation they interfered with? Who interfered in who's investigation? Were his parents, here in the US, coinducting one that, the Army interfered with? WTF? The Army conducted the ONLY investigation and they got to the bottom of it, maybe not over night but they did get there. Dicks. Don't ya just hate em? |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:19:12 AM EDT
[#40]
This is just more bullshit from the left.
We have heard more about this, the so-called abuse at Gitmo and Abu Graib (sp?), the non-existant "Koran flushing" that caused what, 19 deaths, and many other non-events than we ever heard about the beheadings of innocents by the terrorist assholes. The left is now comparing the Newsweek bullshit to Bush's alleged "lying" on WMDs. Anyone who doesn't believe Sodamn Insane had them and spirited them either out of the country or buried in the desert, doesn't want to believe it, it doesn't suit their agenda. The left has raised so many allegations that have turned out to be completely unfounded, that I don't know how anyone could listen to anything they say. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 11:26:23 AM EDT
[#41]
1) When you are killed by it, it 'aint friendly. 2) If friendlies were firing you can almost be rest assured the enemy was close by. I understand the left looks down upon those of us who serve or have served and think anyone with a firearm is not competent to walk and chew gum at the same time. These guys are pros, they don't spray and pray, there is more not being told. 3) Tillman was a hero not because he died but because he served. That is the part the left does not understand. The recent media attacks on the military to get to GWB do nothing but shoot themselves in the foot. The people who read the crap they put out have thier kids in country, every messed up story they put out and say oppps about puts thier readerships kids in peril. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:21:10 PM EDT
[#42]
You must admit that it is a little different, the Juneau was not torpedoed by another U.S. warship. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:32:30 PM EDT
[#43]
No, there is no different… Death by an aiming error, death by a clerical error, death by enemy fire… dead is dead. All this second guessing and re-inventing what happen will not change one thing The US Army does not give graphic explanations of how soldiers died when they make death notification because they don’t know the facts when notifications are done. There is no way the US Army could know definitively know what happen in this case until they had finished an autopsy and investigation. And then the family would be notified… As happen in this case. The US Army never denied Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident; they never did, so how did they lie? Pat Tillman’s father is asking for special treatment, treatment no other solider would get. What Tillman’s father is claiming occurred simply did not occur in the manner he puts forward. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:32:47 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:34:07 PM EDT
[#45]
Exactly.
The media just isn't savvy about things related to the military. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:37:53 PM EDT
[#46]
Pat Tillman died serving his nation. For which I will FOREVER be grateful.
Leave it at that. +1 |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:40:46 PM EDT
[#47]
This is not a Left or Right discussion nor does it question Tillman's service or whether he's a hero. It purely about the fact the Govt deceived people about how Tillman died. It's very clear that Tillman was a hero because of how he lived his life and the choices and sacrifices he made. I'm as far-right as they come, but I'm not brainwashed like some of you guys that think that questioning Govt deception or the military makes me a member of the Loonie-Left. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:43:54 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Would it have made any difference back then if it had been? Nope. Several of the Japanese 'Hell Ships' that were transporting Allied POWs from one prison camp to another were torpedoed by US subs and sunk by US aircraft during the last two years of the War. What should the US Command have done? Whatever you think they should have done, they did precisely what needed to be done - continue all-out war on every Japanese transport ship! If US and Allied POWs died in the process, those were simply more deaths caused by Japanese Imperialism. However Pat Tillman died in Afghanistan, his untimely death was the direct result of al Qaeda and its allies, the Taliban who ran the country of Afghanistan. Why would you let them off the hook so easily? Eric The(Patriotic)Hun
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:44:38 PM EDT
[#49]
One question how did the Government deceived people about how Tillman died and when? The US Army never denied Tillman was killed in a friendly fire incident… so how did they lie? You are simply buying the half-truths. |
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Posted: 5/23/2005 1:45:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Absolutely! But the Leftist National Media will never be content to leave it at that! Nor, apparently, will the 'Lew Rockwell Contingent' here at ARFCOM! Eric The(Sensible)Hun
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