link

I guess we will have to start carrying our "Papers".

In a 100-0 vote, the U.S. Senate passed the 2nd largest supplemental spending bill in the history of the nation.  If that were not enough reason to question the common sense of our legislators, the Republican and Democrat leaders also passed the Real ID Act which was hidden within the spending bill.



With the passing of the bill, states will have to abide by federal standards for providing driver's licenses and I.D. cards to citizens.  States will also have to link their citizen databases to federal systems in order obtain funding for the program.  



Driver's licenses issued by states not fulfilling federal requirements will not be accepted by any federal agency.  What does that matter?  Here are a few scenarios that may occur if your state were to not fulfill the new federal obligations:



Flying to see a relative in another state?  Don’t forget your papers:   Domestic travelers could not pass through airport security checkpoints without a passport or a "Real" I.D. card.  
Want to serve your country? Apply for a passport first:  Prospective military enlistees could not meet identification requirements with only state issued identification.
Want to get a job? Not without federal documentation:  The INS I-9 form is a required document for all U.S. workers.  Section Two of the form requires identification to be examined by the employer.  As no federal agency will accept "old" driver's licenses, your I.D. would no longer be valid.  Be sure to bring your passport along to your next job interview.

Aside from the authoritarian restrictions that will be implemented within the next three years (the bill is to be fully implemented by May 2008 as it has been signed into law by President George W. Bush), there are many other consequences of the bill.



The forthcoming database sharing will now put U.S. citizens in the same class as criminals.  While the Social Security Administration tracks names and employment data, the federal government will now have access to at least your physical description, disabilities, and your photo.  In the past, this level of detail was only offered to the federal government within criminal databases.

If you are comfortable with the above, please take the time today to send a "thank you" note to your Republican or Democrat senators.  Be sure to let them know that you enjoy having your personal freedom and privacy stolen.  Otherwise, choose to support the Libertarian Party, which will continue to follow principle and fight for your individual liberty.

Like the gun laws on the books, this only applies to law abiding citizens. For all others it is business as usual, fake ID's, fake papers, illegal guns, or what ever.

This is very disturbing to me since these types of laws only get more restrictive and invasive over time.

As the criminals out think the process the process tries to compensate at the expense of Joe Public.

One step closer.......

Dibs on #666, or is it 616....?....damn, I can't get both.....

My state ID is already compliant with the new requirements.  No changes there for me.  The Feds already know anything about me they want to know, including my fingerprints.

Next thing you know they will have ID readers posted at all building and gas stations so before you can enter somewhere or buy something  you will have to swip your card.  The govt could keep track of you and keep a more exact database on us.

Better yet:  why dont they just tattoo a number on our arms

Quoted: One step closer.......

Ditto.

Black Helocopter Syndrome.

PAPIERE GEFALLEN !

SCHNELL!

Why don't we just get it over with and issue coal scuttle helmets to all the TSA people and have them all goose step everywhere they go.

After  that we could just go ahead and scrap the constitution.  The fucking government doesn't recognize it anyway.

Those chicken shit old crusties in the senate and the house are so damn scared of OBL and his crew that if one of them actually showed up, they'd probably shit their pants and pee down their leg.

Quoted: Black Helocopter Syndrome.

So when should people worry?  
When its to late?

Just sit down and dont worry about it.  The Govt is here to help you.

What a Fuck Tard.

Quoted: My state ID is already compliant with the new requirements.  No changes there for me.  The Feds already know anything about me they want to know, including my fingerprints.

Tell me about it.  I've been fingerprinted several times in the military, then later every time I purchase a firearm.  I have a passport and I deliver tax forms to the government every year (along with a pile of money) with all kinds of personal information on it.  That, and I purchase just about everything using a Visa card leaving a money trail whereever I go and a list of whatever I buy.  

If Uncle Sam wants to know something about me all they have to do is look around.

I don't understand all the complaining about this National ID bill. Won't it stop alot of the illegal aliens from operating within our borders?

Quoted: I don't understand all the complaining about this National ID bill. Won't it stop alot of the illegal aliens from operating within our borders?

No it wont stop anything.  (The illegals need a green card now to operate)
But it will put one more regulation on you and me.
And how much do you think this little National ID will cost the taxpayers?

Quoted: I don't understand all the complaining about this National ID bill. Won't it stop alot of the illegal aliens from operating within our borders?

Do they follow the existing laws? Oh wait, just being here is against the law

Sorry.. Barcodes would be more effecient.

Quoted: Driver's licenses issued by states not fulfilling federal requirements will not be accepted by any federal agency.  What does that matter?  Here are a few scenarios that may occur if your state were to not fulfill the new federal obligations: Flying to see a relative in another state?  Don’t forget your papers:   Domestic travelers could not pass through airport security checkpoints without a passport or a "Real" I.D. card.   You already have to show your ID when you fly.  Or do you sneak into the cargo hold? Want to serve your country? Apply for a passport first:  Prospective military enlistees could not meet identification requirements with only state issued identification. While I'm not familiar with this one, Are you saying that people with the OLD type driver's license can't meet the identification requirements?  If so, update. Want to get a job? Not without federal documentation:  The INS I-9 form is a required document for all U.S. workers.  Section Two of the form requires identification to be examined by the employer.  As no federal agency will accept "old" driver's licenses, your I.D. would no longer be valid.  Be sure to bring your passport along to your next job interview. Or just bring your goddamned driver's license.

Good fucking LORD, people.  It's not like they're tattooing you, chipping you, or making you take "papers" along with you.  This is the SAME IT HAS BEEN.  YOUR FUCKING DRIVER'S LICENSES HAVE BEEN REQUIRED FOR ALL THIS SHIT EVEN BEFORE NOW.  

[1gr]What are you, new?[/1gr]

What congress needs to do is make it illegal to break the law.

I'm pretty sure California implemented the ID requirements several years ago.

Quoted: I don't understand all the complaining about this National ID bill. Won't it stop alot of the illegal aliens from operating within our borders?

Either way it gives us something to tie in with employers being responsible for hiring legal workers.  Too many loopholes previously and too much plausible deniability for lawyers to exploit.

Legislators will now have to pay a little more for domestics or do their own laundry and cooking.

all of you folks talk such a big game, but why dont you ever do anything about it?

Quoted: I'm pretty sure California implemented the ID requirements several years ago.

Imagine that!

so how is canada this time of year?

i can already smell that tatoo ink and hear the train whistles blowing...ahhh amerika - Land of the Free (some restrictions may apply; void where prohibited)

ID readers posted at all building and gas stations

Several gas stations around here already have the mag readers.  Several local stations require SC license holders to have their license swiped to make certain purchases.  I, of course, no longer go to those stations.z

Quoted: Quoted: I'm pretty sure California implemented the ID requirements several years ago. Imagine that!

Prior to the passage of the Real ID act only 11 states were not already in compliance with the liscencing requirments of the act.

I found a piece of sky on the ground over there.  I think it fell.

Quoted: My state ID is already compliant with the new requirements.  No changes there for me.  The Feds already know anything about me they want to know, including my fingerprints.

Why do I keep on seeing people say this? That statement is NOT necessarily true. The bill states:

(2) STATE CERTIFICATIONS- The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary of Transportation. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.... (b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State: ... (9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

In essence, if the SHS decides that the "common machine-readable technology" must be RFID, which it sounds very much like they will do, then how would your DL be valid (assuming it doesn't already have RFID)? And what happens if the SHS decides to change what the "common machine-readable technology" is at a later date?

thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:h.r.00418:

Edit: Link fixed...hopefully.

Quoted: In essence, if the SHS decides that the "common machine-readable technology" must be RFID, which it sounds very much like they will do, then how would your DL be valid (assuming it doesn't already have RFID)? And what happens if the SHS decides to change what the "common machine-readable technology" is at a later date? thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:3:./temp/~c109uRpuAC:e47420:

Where does it say that, exactly?

I already got mine.

Quoted: Quoted: In essence, if the SHS decides that the "common machine-readable technology" must be RFID, which it sounds very much like they will do, then how would your DL be valid (assuming it doesn't already have RFID)? And what happens if the SHS decides to change what the "common machine-readable technology" is at a later date? thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c109:3:./temp/~c109uRpuAC:e47420: Where does it say that, exactly?

It doesn't say anything about RFID in the bill, that's just what many of the rumors are, coming out of many different sources that I've read.

It may in fact not be RFID at all, but considering the fact that passports will be getting RFID and other things I've read, it certainly sounds like a lot of people in high places are very eager to implement RFID in a lot of different ways.

The main thing I don't like about this bill is the fact that it is too vague. It leaves too many doors open.

Papiere Gefallen!

Will less security on ID make us safer?

Will less security on ID cure illegal immigration?

Will less security cure ID theft?

Will less security on ID stop illegal and/or multiple voting?

Will less security on ID stop abusers of welfare?

These problems exist.  Are we OK with the status quo?

100-0 in the Senate.  edit House overwhelming too.

I think the trend is obvious by how much technology we're putting into our currency printing.  Money is less valuable if it's easily duped.  Same with your identity.

Good fucking LORD, people. It's not like they're tattooing you, chipping you, or making you take "papers" along with you. This is the SAME IT HAS BEEN. YOUR FUCKING DRIVER'S LICENSES HAVE BEEN REQUIRED FOR ALL THIS SHIT EVEN BEFORE NOW.

The difference is that .gov is extorting the states into funding an "unfunded mandate" that will force law-abiding citizens into carrying what is essentially an internal passport.

Silly me, I have some problems with that.

And if you think this is the end of it, just remember that .gov promised in the 1930's that social security numbers WOULD NEVER be used for anything else...

I applaud Montana for telling .gov to shove it...

Quoted: Will less security on ID make us safer? Will less security on ID cure illegal immigration? Will less security cure ID theft? Will less security on ID stop illegal and/or multiple voting? Will less security on ID stop abusers of welfare? These problems exist.  Are we OK with the status quo? 100-0 in the Senate.  edit House overwhelming too. I think the trend is obvious by how much technology we're putting into our currency printing.  Money is less valuable if it's easily duped.  Same with your identity.

Don’t bother…

Just run around screaming the “sky is falling”.

I guess they're just gonna have to kill me.......  

Quoted: ID readers posted at all building and gas stations Several gas stations around here already have the mag readers.  Several local stations require SC license holders to have their license swiped to make certain purchases.  I, of course, no longer go to those stations.z

So what would those items be?

Quoted: ...The difference is that .gov is extorting the states into funding an "unfunded mandate" that will force law-abiding citizens into carrying what is essentially an internal passport. Silly me, I have some problems with that. And if you think this is the end of it, just remember that .gov promised in the 1930's that social security numbers WOULD NEVER be used for anything else... I applaud Montana for telling .gov to shove it...

Double-tap. Montana just keeps looking better all the time. If only the economy were better over there.

Those chicken shit old crusties in the senate and the house are so damn scared of OBL and his crew We the People that if one of them us actually showed up, they'd probably shit their pants and pee down their leg.

Fixed

Quoted: Quoted: ...The difference is that .gov is extorting the states into funding an "unfunded mandate" that will force law-abiding citizens into carrying what is essentially an internal passport. Silly me, I have some problems with that. And if you think this is the end of it, just remember that .gov promised in the 1930's that social security numbers WOULD NEVER be used for anything else... I applaud Montana for telling .gov to shove it... Double-tap. Montana just keeps looking better all the time. If only the economy were better over there.

When I lived in MT your driver's license number was your Social Security Number, printed in large type on the front of the license.  

Do you think a military ID might be able to act in lieu of the Real ID, or is it simply that these new standards must be implemented on state driver's licenses?  These new Real ID's sound very similar to the current military ID cards.  Also, it sounds like if you wanted to, you could use your passport in place of the Real ID in most situations.

I don't see what is radically different from what they are doing now.  You don't exist if you don't have a driver's licence and SSN.  

I love that little lie - your SSN is not meant to be used as ID.  Bull.  Try opening a bank account or getting a loan without one.  

You need a driver's licence or passport to fly already.  This sounds like it prevents localities from passing out driver's licences like candy to anyone with cash.  Sounds good to me.  It just codifies what has already been taking place over the past few years.

So what would those items be?

At some of the places, it was only cigarettes and alcohol.  At several chains, they've started swiping for everything they consider dangerous, like aspirin, Peptobismol, Red Bull, Tums, etc. or for larger orders of gas paid with CC.  I really don't think a gas station needs to know my home address, my height/weight, DL #, and so on just to buy aspirin.  One of the chains is a customer of ours, and I asked their executive VP why they started that, and he claimed it was because of insurance.  They print all of the information and keep it on file.  Those morons can't keep-up with gas deliveries to make sure they don't run-out, but they're very careful keeping detailed records on their customers.z

Quoted: This is nothing compared to what they are going to want to do after Real ID "doesnt work."

Bingo.  

Just another good for nothing, bullshit big government power grab that will do NOTHING to stop anyone from doing anything illegal.  

...oiling bolt...loading magazines....

I'm going ito the freakin tin-foil business! 'Tin-Foil Hats-R-US' sounds good.  

The problem with people today is that they respond to news reports about legislation and they dont read it themselves.

H.R.418

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/D?c109:3:./temp/~c1096YvGmc::

READ

Does your state meet minimum requirements already?

SEC. 202. MINIMUM DOCUMENT REQUIREMENTS AND ISSUANCE STANDARDS FOR FEDERAL RECOGNITION.

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use-

(1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.

(2) STATE CERTIFICATIONS- The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary of Transportation. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.

(b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:

(1) The person's full legal name.

(2) The person's date of birth.

(3) The person's gender.

(4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.

(5) A digital photograph of the person.

(6) The person's address of principle residence.

(7) The person's signature.

(8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.

(9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.

(c) Minimum Issuance Standards-

(1) IN GENERAL- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall require, at a minimum, presentation and verification of the following information before issuing a driver's license or identification card to a person:

(A) A photo identity document, except that a non-photo identity document is acceptable if it includes both the person's full legal name and date of birth.

(B) Documentation showing the person's date of birth.

(C) Proof of the person's social security account number or verification that the person is not eligible for a social security account number.

(D) Documentation showing the person's name and address of principal residence.

(2) SPECIAL REQUIREMENTS-

(A) IN GENERAL- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall comply with the minimum standards of this paragraph.

(B) EVIDENCE OF LAWFUL STATUS- A State shall require, before issuing a driver's license or identification card to a person, valid documentary evidence that the person--

(i) is a citizen of the United States;

(ii) is an alien lawfully admitted for permanent or temporary residence in the United States;

(iii) has conditional permanent resident status in the United States;

(iv) has an approved application for asylum in the United States or has entered into the United States in refugee status;

(v) has a valid, unexpired nonimmigrant visa or nonimmigrant visa status for entry into the United States;

(vi) has a pending application for asylum in the United States;

(vii) has a pending or approved application for temporary protected status in the United States;

(viii) has approved deferred action status; or

(ix) has a pending application for adjustment of status to that of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States or conditional permanent resident status in the United States.

(C) TEMPORARY DRIVERS' LICENSES AND IDENTIFICATION CARDS-

(i) IN GENERAL- If a person presents evidence under any of clauses (v) through (ix) of subparagraph (B), the State may only issue a temporary driver's license or temporary identification card to the person.

(ii) EXPIRATION DATE- A temporary driver's license or temporary identification card issued pursuant to this subparagraph shall be valid only during the period of time of the applicant's authorized stay in the United States or, if there is no definite end to the period of authorized stay, a period of one year.

(iii) DISPLAY OF EXPIRATION DATE- A temporary driver's license or temporary identification card issued pursuant to this subparagraph shall clearly indicate that it is temporary and shall state the date on which it expires.

(iv) RENEWAL- A temporary driver's license or temporary identification card issued pursuant to this subparagraph may be renewed only upon presentation of valid documentary evidence that the status by which the applicant qualified for the temporary driver's license or temporary identification card has been extended by the Secretary of Homeland Security.

(3) VERIFICATION OF DOCUMENTS- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall implement the following procedures:

(A) Before issuing a driver's license or identification card to a person, the State shall verify, with the issuing agency, the issuance, validity, and completeness of each document required to be presented by the person under paragraph (1) or (2).

(B) The State shall not accept any foreign document, other than an official passport, to satisfy a requirement of paragraph (1) or (2).

(C) Not later than September 11, 2005, the State shall enter into a memorandum of understanding with the Secretary of Homeland Security to routinely utilize the automated system known as Systematic Alien Verification for Entitlements, as provided for by section 404 of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (110 Stat. 3009-664), to verify the legal presence status of a person, other than a United States citizen, applying for a driver's license or identification card.

(d) Other Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall adopt the following practices in the issuance of drivers' licenses and identification cards:

(1) Employ technology to capture digital images of identity source documents so that the images can be retained in electronic storage in a transferable format.

(2) Retain paper copies of source documents for a minimum of 7 years or images of source documents presented for a minimum of 10 years.

(3) Subject each person applying for a driver's license or identification card to mandatory facial image capture.

(4) Establish an effective procedure to confirm or verify a renewing applicant's information.

(5) Confirm with the Social Security Administration a social security account number presented by a person using the full social security account number. In the event that a social security account number is already registered to or associated with another person to which any State has issued a driver's license or identification card, the State shall resolve the discrepancy and take appropriate action.

(6) Refuse to issue a driver's license or identification card to a person holding a driver's license issued by another State without confirmation that the person is terminating or has terminated the driver's license.

(7) Ensure the physical security of locations where drivers' licenses and identification cards are produced and the security of document materials and papers from which drivers' licenses and identification cards are produced.

(8) Subject all persons authorized to manufacture or produce drivers' licenses and identification cards to appropriate security clearance requirements.

(9) Establish fraudulent document recognition training programs for appropriate employees engaged in the issuance of drivers' licenses and identification cards.

(10) Limit the period of validity of all driver's licenses and identification cards that are not temporary to a period that does not exceed 8 years.

1 thing this says is, a minimum requirement for the states to meet is to ONLY issue ID cards to people who....

(i) is a citizen of the United States;

(ii) is an alien lawfully admitted for permanent or temporary residence in the United States;

(iii) has conditional permanent resident status in the United States;

(iv) has an approved application for asylum in the United States or has entered into the United States in refugee status;

(v) has a valid, unexpired nonimmigrant visa or nonimmigrant visa status for entry into the United States;

(vi) has a pending application for asylum in the United States;

(vii) has a pending or approved application for temporary protected status in the United States;

(viii) has approved deferred action status; or

(ix) has a pending application for adjustment of status to that of an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States or conditional permanent resident status in the United States.


otherwise, the state is not in compliance!

ITS ABOUT TIME!

Quoted: So what would those items be? At some of the places, it was only cigarettes and alcohol.  At several chains, they've started swiping for everything they consider dangerous, like aspirin, Peptobismol, Red Bull, Tums, etc. or for larger orders of gas paid with CC.  I really don't think a gas station needs to know my home address, my height/weight, DL #, and so on just to buy aspirin.  One of the chains is a customer of ours, and I asked their executive VP why they started that, and he claimed it was because of insurance.  They print all of the information and keep it on file.  Those morons can't keep-up with gas deliveries to make sure they don't run-out, but they're very careful keeping detailed records on their customers.z

They won't get anything but your DL number from swiping your card, no details. The bar code or mag stripe will usualy contain just your DL number. This number typically contains your birth year somewhere, and this is why they use them for verifying age on age restricted items - I guess they think it is difficult to forge a mag strip.

Quoted: READ Does your state meet minimum requirements already?

I already linked to the text above.

I don't see how anyone can know if their state meets the minimum requirements yet, as the Secretary of Homeland Security has not yet decided on exactly what the "machine readable technology" will be. I'm not a lawyer, but to my layman's eyes it seems to me that the bill leaves it totally up to the SHS to decide what it will be. I also don't see anything from preventing the SHS from changing/upgrading the "machine readable technology" at any point in time.

(a) Minimum Standards for Federal Use-            (1) IN GENERAL- Beginning 3 years after the date of the enactment of this Act, a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section.            (2) STATE CERTIFICATIONS- The Secretary shall determine whether a State is meeting the requirements of this section based on certifications made by the State to the Secretary of Transportation. Such certifications shall be made at such times and in such manner as the Secretary of Transportation, in consultation with the Secretary of Homeland Security, may prescribe by regulation.      (b) Minimum Document Requirements- To meet the requirements of this section, a State shall include, at a minimum, the following information and features on each driver's license and identification card issued to a person by the State:            (1) The person's full legal name.            (2) The person's date of birth.            (3) The person's gender.            (4) The person's driver's license or identification card number.            (5) A digital photograph of the person.            (6) The person's address of principle residence.            (7) The person's signature.            (8) Physical security features designed to prevent tampering, counterfeiting, or duplication of the document for fraudulent purposes.            (9) A common machine-readable technology, with defined minimum data elements.