User Panel
Posted: 5/10/2005 11:50:24 AM EDT
Sorry if this is a dupe, I haven't seen any discussion on this particular incident though.
My comments at the bottom of the article. Edit. This was not a "no knock" warrant.
A couple of things: 1. When this was first reported on the local news a week ago, the line was repeated "a man was shot after he had an altercation with deputies serving a warrant." Over the weekend I was surprised to read how the deputies permitted the guy they picked up to go back inside. 2. I don't know if the the lesson here is to shoot first or just don't bother defending your life or property. 3. This has the potential to become an LEO bashing thread, I don't intend for that to happen, and want to ask LEOs who have served warrants if, given the information in the news article, similar procedures are followed elsewhere. Another article regarding this man's generosity |
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Dark house, their flashlights in his eyes, can't see a fucking thing but the scene he walked in on.
Helluva a way to die. And his lawbreaker son is what set up the situation to occur. |
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I agree. I have no idea if the guy was a clean upstanding citizen or not, but the story is tragic all the way around. I would like to hear from LEOs on warrant serving procedures.
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Sorry, but if someone's in my house shining flashlights and all they're saying is "drop it! drop it!" - All that really accomplishes is that now I have a point of aim.
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+1 |
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How the hell was he supposed to know they were cops if they didn't shoot the dog? Actually, there's nothing funny about this. |
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See point number 2. Link to Sunday's article here |
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What have we learned?
1) Shoot first, ask questions later 2) Have a five-seven |
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The officers made several flaws in conducting themselves, creating the situation needlessly, regardless of who is "most" right or wrong. The officers are should be punished and dept. should be sued.
Whatever happened to picking up non-violent warrants at the workplace or during daylight hours at a person's residence? |
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Letting that kid go back inside was not smart if they had any inkling that there were other people home. Damn, that just sucks all around.
ETA: Serving other than high-risk warrents in the dead of night without making sure everyone in the home is aware of who you are and what you are doing is not bright I think. |
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The bloody redcoats said the same thing on the Lexington green.
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I agree. Cops perform a necessary job that I would have a difficult time performing. Nearly all of the officers I have met were extremely professional. |
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Shoot first, preferably from cover. |
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well I say double standards AGAIN.
first ask the question if a person not a cop, was the ones saying, drop it. Now just because they are LEO the same rules dont apply. Lack of respect especially by LEO's, always leads to trouble. damn shame. |
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I don't understand. How does a misdemeanor bench warrant justify a no-knock midnight raid?
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I'm curious. If the weapon is only held at the side and never pointed at anyone does that give justification for lethal force as an officer. I mean if I answered a 1:00am pound at the door with pistol in hand could they just shoot me dead for that? I know heat of the moment changes perceptions so maybe it's reasonable in this story but not in the analogy. As a monday morning quarterback, I'd be a little questioning of knowing a person had a pistol and knowing it was not pointed at anyone but shooting anyway.
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i can't imagine they didn't announce themselves right from the get-go at least ONCE. our sop was you bang on the door, shout "police-warrant", go through the door with the guy in the rear still id'ing the team as police (you don't need everyone screaming "police").
what a tragedy... |
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fuck you |
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Letting him back in the house? A mistake. People in a given agency or area will do that - decent, kind-hearted officers will - until someone does it & the subject comes out & shoots a cop, or shoots himself while inside, or shotguns a jug of Drano, or jumps out a back window. The good-hearted officers who hear that story then fetch the shoes, feed fido, or turn off the TV themselves. . .until everybody forgets and the practice becomes common again . . . until - you get the point. It's sort of like doing cursory searches of a guy you have peacefully arrested a half-dozen times. It's usually OK. Then you arrest him the day after his mom died, and he shoots you in the back of the head.
99.99% of the time, the officer's judgment is correct: Jethro will go get his shoes, feed his dog, tell you what pocket his pistol is in, et c., and peacefully ride downtown. The one in 10,000 is a bear for all concerned. This is why things like careful pat-downs, constant contact with/supervision of a subject who has been reduced to custody and the like are supposed to be drilled until they are automatic. There are plenty of opportunities for a police officer to display human decency and/or Christian kindness to people in his custody. Doing cursory searches and letting them out of your sight are not such opportunities. I hope I understood your query. |
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Did you or other officers ever go back in to an occupied home after you had the guy? |
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Yes, they can shoot you and no charges filed. Gun in the hand is a free shoot ticket. Its been that way my entire life. Its why I always leave my pants by the bed and slap them on then put my gun in the waist. The real crime here is the policy of serving warrants on misdemenors in the middle of the night. This set this inevitiable scenario in place. This is tragic for everyone involved. Tj |
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Once you have the guy in custody, why let him back into the house? Stupid stupid stupid. Once you've made that stupid decision why didn't they ask who else was in the house?
Why serve a misdemeanor warrant at night? Why not at 0500 or so? |
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Dude, ignore it. He's an idiot trying to pick a fight. |
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Yes. Thank you. |
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Did you even read the article? They arrested Junior outside and followed him inside to get his shoes. |
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Making those types of arrests can happen at anytime or day. The best time to find them is late at night, early morning or on Sundays.
Most people like that do not have jobs or change jobs frequently. I would not have let him go get his shoes. I would have woke someone else up in the house and get them to bring the shoes to the patrol car. Sad deal. |
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It doesn't look like they broke in. They arrested Junior, who lived there. Junior wanted his shoes. They said OK, but we'll have to go in with you. He consents to their entry. As they entered, accompanied by and with the consent of a resident, Pop woke up and responded to the noise with a gun in his hand. Not knowing they were cops (Why wasn't Junior saying "It's OK Dad, they're cops?" ) Pops ignores their instructions to drop his gun. They shoot. It may have been a bad shoot (depending on what Pop was doing with the gun), but I see nothing to suggest that this was a no-knock raid - or any kind of raid at all. Just an act of kindness by the cops blowing up in everybody's faces. |
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So the Officers had him in custody, then as an "act of compassion" took him inside to get shoes.
Hmm... sounds to me like one of the universal truths around here... No good deed goes unpunished. ETA: Very bad situation, good shoot. |
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Interesting. Adds yet another reason why I will take a position and let them come to me. Having a member of your family down there with them kinda interferes with that plan though. |
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It's the late at night thing I have a problem with. Early in the morning or on Sundays, fine, but you're just asking for this sort of thing to happen late at night. |
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Eat shit. |
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Bama... don't feed the |
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I don't read that this was a no knock warrant. I read that they already had the kid in custody, and it's departmental policy to serve these warrants at odd hours. I read that they led the kid back in the house, in uniform, so he could pick up his shoes, the dog was either barking or confronted the officers, and the cops were telling the arrestee to shut the dog up when the dad confronted them with a gun.
Yes this is tragic, but if the cops were able to see well enough to hit their target, why couldn't the deceased see that they were uniformed officers? Even if their lights were shining in his eyes, which I'm sure they were, they didn't concentrate their flashlights until confronted by the father. Was the kid yelling to his father that these guys were police officers? Or yelling for daddy to shoot them? What was the kid/arrestee saying? What were the cops saying? If the guy is pointing a gun at them, what are the cops thinking? Was the deceased intoxicated? Sometimes in life theres an unfortunate series of events, in which all involved are not totally blameless or totally culpable. This sounds just like one of those incidents. |
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You go when the person is most likely to be home. And don't kid yourself the parents would have known a warrant was issued for their son. |
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+1. I think my anti-JBT bona fides are a matter of record, but for Pete's sake, this was Andy Griffith letting Otis get his shoes, not BATFE at Waco. Of course, one shouldn't let facts get in the way of a good evening of barking at the moon. And eating shit. |
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I'm sorry, but if, late at night, somebody busts down my door OR I find two strangers in my house yelling at my dog to shut up, I'm going to shoot first and make demands/ask questions later.
If it turns out they didn't need shooting, I'll send flowers. Better them than me. It sounds cold, but no matter how you look at the situation, it's a tragedy. I'd rather it wasn't my own personal tragedy, thank you kindly. |
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Yup, theoretically you are supposed show specifically that you need to serve a warrant at night. Around here every single warrant application has "Joe Blow is the most dangerous SOB since Dillinger and he may have crack/pot/herione/meth/stolen merchandise/weapons/ bad breath so a warrant that can be executed at night should be issued" They could've nabbed Koresh when he came into town... |
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Why? whats wrong with serving an arrest warrant in the middle ofthe night? They knocked on the door and when the subject came to the door they informed him of the warrant and arrested him. The problem was not in the time of day, but rather that they let him back inot the house. Someone simply turning on a light in the house would have prevented this. But where does it say that a person can't be arrested on a warrant after sunset? |
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