Hey all,

Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true?

Thanks,
BoB

My gut tells me it's perfectly fine. Tagged.

You don't even need to be a citizen to buy a gun I think.

So I doubt there is a problem

SGatr15

The guy said it's a felony for a non-citizen to posses a gun without the appropriate permits and that the alphabet squad views holding to equal possesion.

BoB

Take the brother from another country shooting, and don't be so paranoid.

they can even rent guns.  Only requirement is that somebody has to speak english in the group so they can understand the safety rules at the range.

Quoted: Hey all, Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true? Thanks, BoB

Who ever told you that is full of shit.

In fact, if you want, stop at a gunshop on the way and he can buy a gun.

Thanks guys.  I just don't want any trouble.  Last thing we need is for 60 minutes to show how easy it is to take someone to the range.

Quoted: Thanks guys.  I just don't want any trouble.  Last thing we need is for 60 minutes to show how easy it is to take someone to the range.

Go ahead, have fun.  We'll see you on TV.  

Quoted: You don't even need to be a citizen to buy a gun I think. So I doubt there is a problem SGatr15

This is true. They must be a legal resident, but not a citizen.

Quoted: Quoted: Hey all, Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true? Thanks, BoB Who ever told you that is full of shit. In fact, if you want, stop at a gunshop on the way and he can buy a gun.

Unless the non-citizen is a legal resident (i.e. green card) he/she cannot BUY a firearm.

But there is nothing to prevent them from using someone elses' guns at the range.  If you LOANED your firearms to them (i.e. gave them possesssion) and let them take them home or something, THEN you would probably be getting into areas that could be illegal.

But shooting at the range with non-resident alines should be fine.


ETA: Unless of course it violates local state laws (thank Paul )

Quoted: Washington State has a law making it illegal for a non-US citizen to handle a firearm. The way I read the law when I lived there for three years that if I left my shotgun laying in the middle of the hallway like I carelessly often do , that my non-US citizen green card owning wife couldn't move it aside to vaccume the carpet below it. In practice I said screw it and I allowed her to clean under the weapons laying about the house. The gun warning is posted in some of the gun stores I've been in and I think I remember seeing it in the airport of all places too.

 Really? - that sucks!

Missouri has an odd law too, which states that non-citizens cannot buy handguns (concealable firearms).  

Oddly enough it doesn't apply to C&R guns, which makes it the most worthless law ever.  I suppose a foreigner would be really dangerous with a new production Colt 1991A1, but would be completely harmless with a 1911A1 built before 1954.  

Idiots.

Particularly bizarre is that the law applies to the PURCHASE or TRANSFER of firearms, NOT the actual ownership.  So when I moved to Missouri about 7 years ago, it was okay for me to bring (and continue to own) my modern handgun.

Why? don't they already have target holders at the range?  

As a British citizen, a resident alien with a green card and member of the United States Marine Corps Reserve for the past 14 years, I can say that in NY and CT I can own a firearm as well as a CCW.

OK...

IF this person in illegally in the country.  It is just the same as felon in possession of a firearm.

That is to say, it is a violation of federal law for a felon, a drug addict, (or someone convicted of domestic violence, even a misdemeanor) or a illegal alien to possess a firearm or ammunition.  

If they are legally in the country... NOT AN ISSUE!

...as it relates to Federal law.

Anybody know how this works in Illinois? I want to take a few non-resident Canadian friends to the range the next time they're down here. I can't seem to find anything about it in the Illinois law. They don't need to buy guns and won't be bringing their own, just shooting with me and mine at the range.

Quoted: As a British citizen, a resident alien with a green card and member of the United States Marine Corps Reserve for the past 14 years, I can say that in NY and CT I can own a firearm as well as a CCW.

You can also get an FLL if you want




OH - that's another thing that BURNS my ass about Missouri.  We passed a CCW last year, but non-US citizens aren't allowed!  

I guess I'm good enough to pay taxes, but not to defend myself

Quoted: Quoted: Washington State has a law making it illegal for a non-US citizen to handle a firearm. The way I read the law when I lived there for three years that if I left my shotgun laying in the middle of the hallway like I carelessly often do , that my non-US citizen green card owning wife couldn't move it aside to vaccume the carpet below it. In practice I said screw it and I allowed her to clean under the weapons laying about the house. The gun warning is posted in some of the gun stores I've been in and I think I remember seeing it in the airport of all places too.  Really? - that sucks! Missouri has an odd law too, which states that non-citizens cannot buy handguns (concealable firearms).   Oddly enough it doesn't apply to C&R guns, which makes it the most worthless law ever.  I suppose a foreigner would be really dangerous with a new production Colt 1991A1, but would be completely harmless with a 1911A1 built before 1954.   Idiots. Particularly bizarre is that the law applies to the PURCHASE or TRANSFER of firearms, NOT the actual ownership.  So when I moved to Missouri about 7 years ago, it was okay for me to bring (and continue to own) my modern handgun.

Yet another set of practically useless legislation enacted by the ignorant.

He defiantly isn't a Arizona Citizen.

We have Felons hanging out on just about every corner here.

In the Phoenix Metro area.

Quoted: Unless the non-citizen is a legal resident (i.e. green card) he/she cannot BUY a firearm. But there is nothing to prevent them from using someone elses' guns at the range.  If you LOANED your firearms to them (i.e. gave them possesssion) and let them take them home or something, THEN you would probably be getting into areas that could be illegal. But shooting at the range with non-resident alines should be fine. ETA: Unless of course it violates local state laws (thank Paul )

I respectfully want to clarify your statement.

If you are in the U.S. legally, and can otherwise own a firearm ie. not a felon, etc., there are no federal laws prohibiting you from purchasing or possessing a firearm.

Most of the guns that I own were purchased before I had a Green Card.  As a legal non-immigrant alien, you can purchase a firearm if you fall under one of the exceptions including possession of a hunting license.  You can check p.3  under Exception 2 on Form 4473 here-->www.scottsdalegunclub.com/faq/form4473.pdf  As long as I was in continuous possession of a hunting license, I could purchase anything I wanted.

Four years ago they started making it more challenging for a legal non-immigrant alien to purchase a firearm.  This was before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.  I had to appeal every single NICS check since it was denied every time.  The first time it took 6 months of writing back and forth and getting all the appropriate documentation together. Afterwards it took less time.  It was almost akin to a Title II firearms transfer but for a Title I firearm.

Quoted: Quoted: Unless the non-citizen is a legal resident (i.e. green card) he/she cannot BUY a firearm. But there is nothing to prevent them from using someone elses' guns at the range.  If you LOANED your firearms to them (i.e. gave them possesssion) and let them take them home or something, THEN you would probably be getting into areas that could be illegal. But shooting at the range with non-resident alines should be fine. ETA: Unless of course it violates local state laws (thank Paul ) I respectfully want to clarify your statement. If you are in the U.S. legally, and can otherwise own a firearm ie. not a felon, etc., there are no federal laws prohibiting you from purchasing or possessing a firearm. Most of the guns that I own were purchased before I had a Green Card.  As a legal non-immigrant alien, you can purchase a firearm if you fall under one of the exceptions including possession of a hunting license.  You can check p.3  under Exception 2 on Form 4473 here-->www.scottsdalegunclub.com/faq/form4473.pdf  As long as I was in continuous possession of a hunting license, I could purchase anything I wanted. Four years ago they started making it more challenging for a legal non-immigrant alien to purchase a firearm.  This was before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.  I had to appeal every single NICS check since it was denied every time.  The first time it took 6 months of writing back and forth and getting all the appropriate documentation together. Afterwards it took less time.  It was almost akin to a Title II firearms transfer but for a Title I firearm.

That's actually a good point - 178.32 just disqualifies "an alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States" - but I never really thought about that.  I guess I figured that since the form has the space for the INS number (off the green card) I believe that only permanent residents were allowed.

But, a reading of the actual law suggests that you are correct.

My mistake.

Why do some people believe that we live in a police state?

Quoted: Why do some people believe that we live in a police state?

I don't understand at all what you mean by that - can you explain?

By that I mean why do some people believe that you should need to ask the governments permission to do something, especially if what your doing is A: Nobody's business but your own and B: Not going to harm anyone.  Just my anti-establishment rant of the day

Quoted: By that I mean why do some people believe that you should need to ask the governments permission to do something, especially if what your doing is A: Nobody's business but your own and B: Not going to harm anyone.  Just my anti-establishment rant of the day

In principle, I completely agree with you.

However, I guess that for those of us that ARE non-citizens, we want to make sure that we don't accidentally committ a felony (even if it is unlikely that we get caught) - since we would get DEPORTED as a result.  Since I own a lot of firearms, I am VERY careful about knowing the laws that apply to me.  



For instance, I filled out the Form 1 for my SBR, and waited until I got my tax stamp before building it.  By your logic, I could just have slapped the SBR upper on any lower - and while I agree the LIKELIHOOD of being nailed for it is low, I am simply not prepared to take that chance.

In principle, I agree with you.

However, I guess that for those of us that ARE non-citizens, we want to make sure that we don't accidentally committ a felony (even if it is unlikely that we get caught) - since we would get DEPORTED as a result.

Since I own a lot of firearms, I am VERY careful about knowing the laws that apply to me.


When you look at it from your perspective it makes more sense.  I mean if you got deported you can forget about taking your collection home with you!  But I intended it to be seen from the perspective of a regular Joe-citizen.

No, a non-resident alien (basically anyone without a green card) may NOT possess any firearm or ammunition - see the BATFE website.

The simplest way around this is to obtain a hunting license. As long as the hunting license is valid they may possess firearms and ammunition.

This law sucks. Its another one which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but there it is.

Quoted: No, a non-resident alien (basically anyone without a green card) may NOT possess any firearm or ammunition - see the BATFE website. The simplest way around this is to obtain a hunting license. As long as the hunting license is valid they may possess firearms and ammunition. This law sucks. Its another one which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but there it is.

Yeah, it definitely sucked.  I do hunt, though, so I was buying a hunting license anyway.  The other convenience is that you can buy a hunting license before January 1rst for the following year so that you could stay in compliance with the law ie. you didn't have to wait until January 1 to buy a license and thereby be committing a crime from the time the store closed on Dec. 31 until it opened January 2nd.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Hey all, Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true? Thanks, BoB Who ever told you that is full of shit. In fact, if you want, stop at a gunshop on the way and he can buy a gun. Double check your Washington State laws please.

Paul, I do believe you are missing the part about the Alien Firearms Permit that Washington State wants.   Its just a background check by WA state, and by your home country (in my case the RCMP did one in 15 seconds).  

I'm a non-US citizen, but permanent resident alien, and own and shoot guns, have a CPL, etc.

Quoted: Quoted: By that I mean why do some people believe that you should need to ask the governments permission to do something, especially if what your doing is A: Nobody's business but your own and B: Not going to harm anyone.  Just my anti-establishment rant of the day In principle, I completely agree with you. However, I guess that for those of us that ARE non-citizens, we want to make sure that we don't accidentally committ a felony (even if it is unlikely that we get caught) - since we would get DEPORTED as a result.  Since I own a lot of firearms, I am VERY careful about knowing the laws that apply to me.   For instance, I filled out the Form 1 for my SBR, and waited until I got my tax stamp before building it.  By your logic, I could just have slapped the SBR upper on any lower - and while I agree the LIKELIHOOD of being nailed for it is low, I am simply not prepared to take that chance.

Are non US citizens even allowed to own anything class 3?  I thought anything Class3 and NFA stuff was forbidden to non citizens.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: By that I mean why do some people believe that you should need to ask the governments permission to do something, especially if what your doing is A: Nobody's business but your own and B: Not going to harm anyone.  Just my anti-establishment rant of the day In principle, I completely agree with you. However, I guess that for those of us that ARE non-citizens, we want to make sure that we don't accidentally committ a felony (even if it is unlikely that we get caught) - since we would get DEPORTED as a result.  Since I own a lot of firearms, I am VERY careful about knowing the laws that apply to me.   For instance, I filled out the Form 1 for my SBR, and waited until I got my tax stamp before building it.  By your logic, I could just have slapped the SBR upper on any lower - and while I agree the LIKELIHOOD of being nailed for it is low, I am simply not prepared to take that chance. Are non US citizens even allowed to own anything class 3?  I thought anything Class3 and NFA stuff was forbidden to non citizens.

As far as federal law is concerned, legal resident aliens seem to have the exact same rights as U.S. citizens.

I don't have the $$$ for full-auto, but I don't know of anything that would legally prevent me from owning it that would be different from citizens.

There is also nothing preventing legal resident aliens from getting FFLs.  I only have a C&R FFL, but I could get others if I wanted to go through the hassle or start a business (which I don't).

Quoted: Are non US citizens even allowed to own anything class 3?  I thought anything Class3 and NFA stuff was forbidden to non citizens.

We can own Title II firearms except for the whole $14,000 stumbling block for an M-16.  I'm waiting for my Form 4 approval on an Uzi SBR and a Gemtek sound suppressor to get to my dealer.  Yes, I know, I should have done a Form 1 but it's too late for that.

So we can have anything then?   I was under the impression non citizens could not get the fun shit.  On Advanced Armaments website they have a FAQ page and it had stated that one must be a US citizen to get silencers.  If this is not the case I can feel my bank account getting smaller in the not to distant future!

BS

A legal resident with green card can buy guns perfectly legal.  However, he cannot buy NFA stuff.

Quoted: Quoted: Washington State has a law making it illegal for a non-US citizen to handle a firearm. The way I read the law when I lived there for three years that if I left my shotgun laying in the middle of the hallway like I carelessly often do , that my non-US citizen green card owning wife couldn't move it aside to vaccume the carpet below it. In practice I said screw it and I allowed her to clean under the weapons laying about the house. The gun warning is posted in some of the gun stores I've been in and I think I remember seeing it in the airport of all places too.  Really? - that sucks! Missouri has an odd law too, which states that non-citizens cannot buy handguns (concealable firearms).   Oddly enough it doesn't apply to C&R guns, which makes it the most worthless law ever.  I suppose a foreigner would be really dangerous with a new production Colt 1991A1, but would be completely harmless with a 1911A1 built before 1954.   Idiots. Particularly bizarre is that the law applies to the PURCHASE or TRANSFER of firearms, NOT the actual ownership.  So when I moved to Missouri about 7 years ago, it was okay for me to bring (and continue to own) my modern handgun.

DK-Prof is correct on MO handguns transfer/purchase permit.  No non-US citizen can receive a transfer (either from dealer or individual) of a concealable firearms, simply because the Sheriff transfer permit requires a U.S. citizenhip to apply.

On the Federal site, even non-immigrant alien (legal alien but non green card holder) can purchase guns.  Read 18 USC Sec. 922 (Y), or, just read the fine prints on the back of the new form 4473 (yellow form).  It explains the protocol in detail.

IIRC (and dont quote me on this), a non-immigrant alien who is legally in the U.S. can purchase a gun only in his/her state of residence if:

1. He/She has been a resident of that state for at least 90 days (must provide proof of residence, e.g. lease, phone bills, utility bills for the period of 90 days consecutively).

2. In possession of a valid hunting license/permit issued in the U.S.  (other possibility is to petition the US AG by including a letter of endorsement from his country's embassy, but the hunting license/permit is the most common document used according to BATF).

Of course, an SSN, valid passport, I-94, Alien Registration Number are needed as well.  All other requirements that apply to U.S. citizens also apply here.

Alien who are here on tourist visa cannot buy a gun because of the 90-day residency requirement and SSN requirement.

oz  

Quoted: BS A legal resident with green card can buy guns perfectly legal.  However, he cannot buy NFA stuff.

You are incorrect.  This is a list of the criteria:

GENERALLY IF YOU MEET THE FOLLOWING CRITERIA YOU CAN OWN A MACHINEGUN. SOME STATES DO NOT ALLOW OWNERSHIP OF NFA ITEMS, PLEASE CHECK OUR STATE LAWS LIST HERE. 1. OVER 21 YEARS OF AGE 2. NO DISHONORABLE DISCHARGED FROM THE ARMED SERVICES 3. NOT AN ALIEN ILLEGALLY IN THE U.S. 4. NOT ADJUDICATED MENTALLY DEFECTIVE, OR COMMITTED TO A MENTAL INSTITUTION 5. NOT AN UNLAWFUL USER OF DRUGS OR CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES 6. NEVER RENOUNCED YOUR U.S. CITIZENSHIP 7. NOT A FUGITIVE FROM JUSTICE 8. NOT UNDER INDICTMENT FOR A CRIME PUNISHABLE BY MORE THAN A YEAR 9. NOT CONVICTED OF A CRIME WHERE YOU COULD HAVE BEEN SENTENCED FOR MORE THAN A YEAR. USUALLY A FELONY. 10. NOT SUBJECT TO A COURT ORDER RESTRAINING YOU FROM HARASSING, STALKING, OR THREATENING AN INTIMATE PARTNER OR CHILD OF SUCH PARTNER.

www.full-auto.com/library_laws.htm

Also, why would you need to fill out one of these-->www.titleii.com/pdf/5330-20.pdf if only U.S. Citizens were allowed to purchase Title II firearms?

I also personally know several people who are not U.S. Citizens who own Title II firearms.

90-DAY RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT
FOR THE PURCHASE OF FIREARMS BY
NONIMMINGRANT ALIENS

ATF is responsible for enforcing the Gun Control
Act of 1968 (GCA), as well as other Federal
firearms statutes and regulations. Under the GCA,
18 U.S.C, section 922 (g)(5)(B) generally makes it
unlawful for nonimmigrant aliens in the United
States to purchase or possess firearms and/or
ammunition. However, there is an exception for
nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting
license issued in the United States.
Under the GCA, it is generally unlawful for a
Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to transfer a
firearm to a person who does not reside in the
State where the FFL is licensed (See 18 U.S.C.
922(b)(3)). With respect to aliens (including
nonimmigrant aliens), ATF regulations provide that
they are considered residents of a particular State if
they have the intention of making a home in that
State and have resided in the State for at least 90
days prior to purchasing a firearm. (See 27 CFR
478.11 [formerly 178.11]). Each alien must
provide the FFL with documentation
demonstrating that he or she has resided in the
State continuously for at least 90 days immediately
prior to the transfer of the firearm. (See 27 CFR
478.124(c)(3)(ii). ATF Ruling 2004-1.
For nonimmigrant aliens, travel outside the United
States is viewed as a break in the 90-day continuous
residency requirement. The Bureau of
Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE)
documents such foreign travel by nonimmigrant
aliens in their database, and this information could
result in a “denied” response by the National
Instant Criminal Background Check System
(NICS) Operations Center. Therefore,
nonimmigrant aliens who travel outside the United
States for employment or other purposes on a
fairly frequent basis will be unable to purchase a
firearm if they are not able to satisfy the 90-day
residency requirement.

www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf

Quoted: 90-DAY RESIDENCY REQUIREMENT FOR THE PURCHASE OF FIREARMS BY NONIMMINGRANT ALIENS ATF is responsible for enforcing the Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), as well as other Federal firearms statutes and regulations. Under the GCA, 18 U.S.C, section 922 (g)(5)(B) generally makes it unlawful for nonimmigrant aliens in the United States to purchase or possess firearms and/or ammunition. However, there is an exception for nonimmigrant aliens who possess a valid hunting license issued in the United States. Under the GCA, it is generally unlawful for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to transfer a firearm to a person who does not reside in the State where the FFL is licensed (See 18 U.S.C. 922(b)(3)). With respect to aliens (including nonimmigrant aliens), ATF regulations provide that they are considered residents of a particular State if they have the intention of making a home in that State and have resided in the State for at least 90 days prior to purchasing a firearm. (See 27 CFR 478.11 [formerly 178.11]). Each alien must provide the FFL with documentation demonstrating that he or she has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 days immediately prior to the transfer of the firearm. (See 27 CFR 478.124(c)(3)(ii). ATF Ruling 2004-1. For nonimmigrant aliens, travel outside the United States is viewed as a break in the 90-day continuous residency requirement. The Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) documents such foreign travel by nonimmigrant aliens in their database, and this information could result in a “denied” response by the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Operations Center. Therefore, nonimmigrant aliens who travel outside the United States for employment or other purposes on a fairly frequent basis will be unable to purchase a firearm if they are not able to satisfy the 90-day residency requirement. www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/ffl_newsltr_aug04.pdf

Interesting.  How about this scenario: a non-resident alien who had fulfilled all legal requirements purchased a gun from a n FFL in his state of residence.  Then he goes on a business trip overseas.  His guns are left at his home in the U.S.  Would it be illegal for him to have access to his own guns upon his return to the U.S. ?

i'd take em

Round me up.  I've taken numerous foreigners to the range including a pretty Irish lass.  Her boyfriend (a Brit police officer) and I joked that she was attending her own Terr training camp.  She liked shooting the AR and did quite well with it.

Quoted: Four years ago they started making it more challenging for a legal non-immigrant alien to purchase a firearm.  This was before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.  I had to appeal every single NICS check since it was denied every time.  The first time it took 6 months of writing back and forth and getting all the appropriate documentation together. Afterwards it took less time.  It was almost akin to a Title II firearms transfer but for a Title I firearm.

This might apply:


The Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) NICS
Section recently sent to all Federal Firearms
Licensees (FFLs) a letter announcing a new
process that may be utilized by lawful firearms
purchasers to prevent erroneous denials or
extended delays because for example, a purchaser
may have a name or date of birth similar to that of
a prohibited person.
This process permits applicants to request that the
FBI NICS Section maintain information about
them in the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF), a
separate file to be checked by the NICS. Potential
purchasers may apply to be considered for entry
into the VAF by, among other things, signing an
applicant statement which authorizes the FBI
NICS Section to retain information that would
otherwise be destroyed upon the approval of the
firearm transaction.
At the conclusion of the FBI NICS Section’s
research, the applicant will receive a letter from the
FBI NICS Section indicating the outcome of the
research as being successful, unsuccessful, or the
information insufficient. Successful applicants will
be provided a unique personal identifier number
(UPIN), which they will provide to the FFL for all
future firearms purchases. The applicant will retain
the original letter. ATF recommends the UPIN be
placed in block 18(a) of the ATF Form 4473, along
with information about Government issued
identification documents, until such time that the
form may be revised with a block for the UPIN.
In the future, the UPIN will be provided to the Call
Center Representative during the initial background
check. In the interim, all subsequent NICS checks
on those individuals with UPINs must be
conducted through the FBI NICS Section
Customer Service at 1-877-444-6427. Select option
six from the automated menu to be transferred to a
VAF Customer Service Representative. The FFL
must state that they are conducting a NICS check
on an individual who has provided a UPIN. The
FFL will provide the UPIN to the Customer
Service Representative and the rest of the process
will remain the same.
For a copy of the FBI NICS letter or for further
information regarding the VAF, you may contact
the FBI NICS Section Customer Service at
telephone number 1-877-444-6427.

www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/0205fflnewsletter.pdf

Quoted: Quoted: Four years ago they started making it more challenging for a legal non-immigrant alien to purchase a firearm.  This was before 9/11 and had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks.  I had to appeal every single NICS check since it was denied every time.  The first time it took 6 months of writing back and forth and getting all the appropriate documentation together. Afterwards it took less time.  It was almost akin to a Title II firearms transfer but for a Title I firearm. This might apply: The Federal Bureau of Investigation’s (FBI) NICS Section recently sent to all Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) a letter announcing a new process that may be utilized by lawful firearms purchasers to prevent erroneous denials or extended delays because for example, a purchaser may have a name or date of birth similar to that of a prohibited person. This process permits applicants to request that the FBI NICS Section maintain information about them in the Voluntary Appeal File (VAF), a separate file to be checked by the NICS. Potential purchasers may apply to be considered for entry into the VAF by, among other things, signing an applicant statement which authorizes the FBI NICS Section to retain information that would otherwise be destroyed upon the approval of the firearm transaction. At the conclusion of the FBI NICS Section’s research, the applicant will receive a letter from the FBI NICS Section indicating the outcome of the research as being successful, unsuccessful, or the information insufficient. Successful applicants will be provided a unique personal identifier number (UPIN), which they will provide to the FFL for all future firearms purchases. The applicant will retain the original letter. ATF recommends the UPIN be placed in block 18(a) of the ATF Form 4473, along with information about Government issued identification documents, until such time that the form may be revised with a block for the UPIN. In the future, the UPIN will be provided to the Call Center Representative during the initial background check. In the interim, all subsequent NICS checks on those individuals with UPINs must be conducted through the FBI NICS Section Customer Service at 1-877-444-6427. Select option six from the automated menu to be transferred to a VAF Customer Service Representative. The FFL must state that they are conducting a NICS check on an individual who has provided a UPIN. The FFL will provide the UPIN to the Customer Service Representative and the rest of the process will remain the same. For a copy of the FBI NICS letter or for further information regarding the VAF, you may contact the FBI NICS Section Customer Service at telephone number 1-877-444-6427. www.atf.gov/firearms/newsletter/0205fflnewsletter.pdf

Good pick-up.  I have a Green Card now, but still have a glitch with rifles.  The interesting thing is that when I go to buy a handgun, the check goes through the State Police and then ? on to NICS (I don't know how it works exactly) but if it is a rifle it goes through NICS directly.  I usually only wait 10 minutes for a pistol but a rifle gets delayed until the next day and then approved.  

Quoted: Hey all, Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true? Thanks, BoB

You've got to f'in kidding me.
1.) What are you doing listening to such morons
B.) Why don't you already know this is nonsense
III.) Have fun.

Quoted: Why do some people believe that we live in a police state?

Because they are fucking morons who wouldn't know what the fuck a REAL Police State is, even if it was hooking a car battery to their genitals.
Because they are fucking morons who can't or don't even try to distinguish the difference between a meddling series of tangled LLLiberal-fuckstick regulations and what a Totalitarian Govt REALLY is.

and I know you thought you were being clever by phrasing your point that way. You weren't.

btw, Nov04 Newb "Busch308" - care to take a whack at explaing what your nic is supposed to mean /. infer?

Quoted: Hey all, Someone told me that it's a felony to let a non-US-citizen shoot one of my guns if I take them to the range.  Is this true? Thanks, BoB

Maybe if you shoot your friends

Quoted: Quoted: Why do some people believe that we live in a police state? Because they are fucking morons who wouldn't know what the fuck a REAL Police State is, even if it was hooking a car battery to their genitals. Because they are fucking morons who can't or don't even try to distinguish the difference between a meddling series of tangled LLLiberal-fuckstick regulations and what a Totalitarian Govt REALLY is. and I know you thought you were being clever by phrasing your point that way. You weren't.

You're right, we don't live in a police state, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't be on the watch for one.

You could always let them hold the targets.

When my sisters visited me from Ireland a couple of years ago, I took them to the range here in California aged about 15 and 20. No problems at all. Older one is a US citizen, younger one wasn't, but nobody asked for proof though range staff knew they were visiting from abroad.

NTM