Seems Uncle Sam was'nt getting his due.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/frame/direct.asp?SITE=dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20010213/us/church_irs_5.html

Why is'nt my link working?

Could this be the beginning of the end time as prophesied in the book of Revelation. This one nation under God has forsaken God and for that,  this nation will feel the wrath of God. The signs point to the end time being very close, and those of us who believe in God, should make sure that they are prepared for the day of judgment. And those who do not believe I pray that you will find God in time so that you will be saved. May god have mercy on all of us.

"The federal government until now had never seized a church for failing to pay taxes"

``To have the IRS come in and seize the church's property, that is an extraordinary event unparalleled in American history,'' Hammar has said.

Kinda says it all, doesn't it???

When they come for the guns,and they will, that too will be an extraordinary event unparalleled in American history.

There is nothing worse for the inner-city than more churches.
In some bad neighborhoods, every other building is a church.
Liquor-store, church, abandoned building, church, crack-house, church, etc..
Many of them are just an excuse not to pay taxes.  They're like little, mini-Jesse Jacksons.  Small town Rainbow-Push coalitions.  They suck the life out of the community.  They take up space that could be used to employ someone, orbe a source of tax revenue that could be used to improve the neighborhood.

Oh boy! Here we go!

Remember guys, people like Jesse Jackson, and millions of others take advantage of the tax codes and give "legitimate" churches a bad name.
It's a tough call to make without coming off as anti-religious, or worse, pro-IRS [puke].

let me start with this point:  TAXES ARE IMMORAL

from that standpoint i say more power to ANYONE who gets out of any taxes in any way--aside from violence.

murphy:

if you were a jew in germany would you have hated the other jews that got away just because YOU didnt???  i hope not.

if there were no tax codes people like j. jackson would have no codes to exploit.  if there are no taxes then you will never have to worry again about YOUR money going to some cause YOU do not believe in.  remember there was NO income tax in this country untill 1913.

You think I like paying taxes??????

C'mon now.

I knew it would be tough to make my point.
But honestly, IF you and I pay taxes, and Jesse doesn't (and should!), then we pay for him.
And I don't like that.
I don't think you do either.
Cheats like him use their tax-exempt status to get democrats elected, WHO THEN TAX US MORE!!!
We will ALWAYS have to pay taxes, and it sucks.

I don't really get your jew analogy.

I don't have anything against anyone who uses tax loopholes or shelters.
Hell, I do it myself.

But I don't like liars, and I don't like cheats.
Especially when I pick up the tab.

murph:

you act as if taxes are an act of god or some kind of physical law that cant be changed.  as i said before there was NO income tax before 1913.  it is that simple.  just because something is law now doesnt mean it will or should be forever.


you said:
---"But honestly, IF you and I pay taxes, and Jesse doesn't (and should!), then we pay for him.
And I don't like that.
I don't think you do either."

sounds like sour grapes to me.  the funny thing is that you didnt get the jew analogy then you proceed prove my analogy correct.  the analogy is all about sour grapes.  instead of being pis$ed off that YOU have to pay taxes you get mad at others who get out of them.  

in terms of the analogy one would be mad at the other jews who got out just because they didnt.  instead one needs to be mad at the german captors.  in the same sense you are mad at those who get out of taxes just because you didnt.  so instead of being angry with others for not paying taxes you should be mad at the stinky, slimey, evil, murderous feds for imposing them.

you said
---"I don't think you do either."

i really dont concern myself with stinky, slimey people like j.j.--i just ont care about those types of people.  so it obviously follows that i really dont care if j.j. pays taxes or not--he shouldnt have to.  and NEITHER should YOU or I--or anybody else.

Hey carbine, do you honestly believe, given the political reality, that taxes in the U.S. will ever be abolished?

Answer honestly.

Could they be abolished?  Sure.
Will they be abolished? No. Never, not going to happen.

Now, because I acknowledge the above reality, does that mean I'm happy about it? No.

I'd love to not pay taxes.
I wish it would rain gumdrops too.

Try this for a WWII jew analogy:

You're at the train station in Berlin, there are many jewish families there too, all trying escape.  One guy cheats you out of you and your family's train tickets.  Are you mad that he got out and you didn't?
Is that sour grapes.

Wake up!
Utopia doesn't exist.
Without taxes we would have never been able to defeat the Soviets (or the nazis).  They would now be your masters, and I don't think you'd be too fond of that that system either.

Some of us have Jobs, families, motgages and even businesses, and can't escape the reality of this evil tax system. Wish I could.

Don't be naive.
And don't waste time debating from the premise that utopia is better than reality. It's a given and it's irrelevant.

I wonder why churches are the most beautiful buildings around.
How much taxes (percentage wise) were the colonies being levied before the tea party?
Was it thirty percent off the top?

Cathedrals are beautiful.
I suppose their designers and builders were "inspired".

Have you ever seen an inner-city, store-front church? Or ten of 'em in a row?
Not exactly beautiful.

I think it to be a point well made that not all "churches" exist for the right reasons.

Some, those who are liars, theives and false prophets, have set themselves up in churches as a business pure and simple.  They get rich, the steal from the naive and the blaspheme against God.  [b]They[/b] will surely pay for their crimes and sins.

Some though, the true churches trying to do Gods will, abide within the law, such as it is, and try to do all they can to ensure that their actions concerning taxes, benefits to staff etc etc are well planned and well above the board.

Don't be fooled though, the signs are everywhere and, good church or bad, our so-called government has just taken a very scary step.

Watch your six.[sniper]

Make yourselves prepared!

Prepared for what?
I`m not discounting you or your ideas but what do I have to watch out for if the GVT steals a church because it didnt follow the laws I have to follow.(taxes)
Meteors, prolonged winters, earthquakes, drought, famine, and last but not least someone trying to take my weapons from me. These are my realistic fears.
Like I said I believe this is the start of something. Exactly what and how far I dont see.
I mean, do you think the GVT will start taking churches from the people. Good luck, cause even I will fight to the death to keep freedom of religion alive and well in this country. The GVT knows people wont stand for it. At all, even the atheists would be up in arms.
I dont see this going anywhere.
The pastor was heard saying this is the beggining of the great purge or something to that effect. How dramatic, it is the people like him that gives Christians a bad name.
I say one less crook to take peoples money.
FTR I am a Christian, but I aint no sucker, my mom still gives to Baker, & Stewart.

murph:

first of all the question is a loaded question.  do i believe that they will be abolished? no. why?  because of people like you with your attitude.

now lets go back 225 years.  i with my attitude would have said "lets fight the brits and throw them off, we need to end this now."  you with your attitude would have said something to the effect that "we cant defeat the most powerful army in the world so we shouldnt try.  should we be free of the brits? sure. is it going to happen? no, never, not a chance. given the political realities the king is too powerful"

your analogy is slightly off for two reasons:  1. a comparison or your analogy to the issue at hand shows that you consider j.j. to be cheating you or me out of something by not paying taxes. but as i already proved it is not j.j. that is cheating anyone--it is the feds that are cheating you out of your money. 2.  because you dont know me i wouldnt expect you to know that your analogy is fallacious with regard to me, but in terms of your jew analogy i would have never been in that situation in the first place. i would have been out of that country with all of the other smart jews that got out as soon as they saw what was happening in the thirties.  

you also commited the inevitable republican error where you contradict yourself in your own reply.  first you state that you abhor taxes then you proceed to state reasons why taxes are necesary.  that doesnt make any sense.

you are also under the illusion that income taxes pay for national defense--they dont.  the income tax was instituted in 1913 to pay for the social programs the feds administer.  is it just coincidence that 4 short years after the begining of income taxes we ended up in a world war?  no it is not coincidence.  there always was and always will be plenty of funds available to equip a first class army with just the constitutional taxes that are outlined in the constitution..

btw.  we would have never been involved in ww1, ww2, korea, vietnam or any other international war if it wasnt for taxes, and the soviets would have never bothered us if we didnt keep sticking our two cents into every other country's business.  also neither the soviets nor the nazis would have ever been able to take any part of the U.S.  hell the nazis couldnt even take a little island called great britain.  but this is a seperate debate which i would be happy to take to a different thread or to email if you so choose.

one more thing.  you are right utopia doesnt exist, but we were as close to utopia as one could get for the first 100 years or so of the U.S.

I'm completely with ya Major Murphy. Not that you need it, you seem to be holding your own just fine. Churches are every bit as buracratic these days as the government that is SUPPOSEDLY suppressing them. It's a big pissing match for your pocket book.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the church seized because it refused to withhold taxes from it's employees, not because it owed taxes?

Check this out
[url]http://pub49.ezboard.com/ftheakdailyfrm39.showMessage?topicID=7.topic[/url]

"smart jews"?  Please don't try to suggest that all of the jews that were exterminated in the Holocaust were the dumb ones. You're smarter than that.  
You've already shown a desire to put up a fight against tyranny.  But if you had been a jew in Germany you would have seen it coming and fled??
That seems like a contradiction to me.
The reason it was smart to flee was that for such a small minority, as the jews, to fight Germany would have been futile.

If you would have been smart enough to see that then, why can't you see that now?

Carbine, I assumed that you pay taxes.  I guess you don't.  

Some of us have to.  Sure we could declare war on the GVT and say "no more!".  But we'd just be put in jail.

I know you'll say that I have a defeatist's attitude, but what planet are you on?  If you believe that you could ever convince even 10% of the population to stop paying taxes, then I guess you're back to your utopian fantasies again.

Do you think that you could convince enough of this population to put up an armed fight against the US? Not if you're using the arguments you've presented so far.  

There's no contradiction in saying that I abhor paying taxes, and then merely recognizing what had been done with taxes, or what had been made possible with taxes in the past.

The nineteenth century, Utopia?
Hey how about Eden?  I hear that was pretty nice too.

murph:

no, i didnt say that the ones that suffered were dumb (i guess i could have used a better choice of words) i was making the point that they had there eyes closed to the reality occuring at the time--for whatever reason.  my own intuition is that they suffered from the "stokholm syndrome"--like most of the citizens in this country.  

you like they are blind to the realities of what government is and why it should be minimized.  you are allowing government to control your emotions  by spending your time hating people like j.j. instead of the goons that took the money in the first place.  it is called "divide and conquer" and the feds have people like you at each others throats while they sit back an reap the rewards.  it is kinda like dog fighting rings--you, the dog, have no clue what is going on while the dog owners, the feds, reap the winnings.  and all you do is end up dead.

also in reference to another of your points it would not be a contradiction if i were to flee an oppresive state to gain freedom instead of fighting, but only if there were some place to go.  i fight only when i am directly threatened and have NO OTHER OPTIONS.

and obviously i do pay taxes.  that is why i hate them and those who support them (but you knew that--your just trying to be a smart-ass).  and another point you seem to miss is that i never try to convince anybody to commit armed resistance, not pay taxes, or anything else for that matter.  i am simply stating the other side of the story.  without the other side stated you get into a situation just like gunowners face with the media today--stories that go unchallenged eventually are believed.  i know i am correct about this issue so when i see pablum spewed out i must at the very least challenge your false statements and conclusions.  unchallenged fallacies of today become tomorrows erronious facts.

you also committed political double-speak.  i first said that utopia DOESNT exist and stated that the 19th century was AS CLOSE as one could get to utopian freedom, and then you twisted my words to say that i said the 19th century WAS IN FACT utopia.  so considering eden is fictitious and 19th century america DID exist your comparison falls short.  if you are going to try to be condecending at least make a good effort at it.

this is not a flame or anything, but i think you need to read up on the "stokholm syndrom" wich you seem to be suffering from.  i wont bore the members with explaining it, so just do an internet search and you'll find it.

you know i used to suffer from that addiction known as republicanism it was passed down from my parents, but i have been clean and sober from it for 12 years now.

and i know YOU can do it too!!  come on say it with me: "my name is murph and i am a republicanaholic"  good i knew you could.  now on to your 12 step program and you will be completely free of your addiction.  i promise!!!!!

The IBT had to have been on the correct side of the issue because morris sleaze..er..dees of sothern perversion...uh...poverty law center was  spouting off with glee that this is was an anti-government group and was glad what happened to them.

well, now were just silly.

I believe in smaller Gov't just like you.
Do you really "hate the goons" that take your money?  Talk about wasted energy.  What good does that hatred do you?  I don't hate JJ, I just don't like what he's up to.  If I was black I might hate him.

But back to your admiration for the "as close as it gets to utopia" 19th cetury.

There is an infrastructure that we have created since the 19th century that demands upkeep.  Whether or not we should have created such a thing is now irrelevant.  It's here, as is the population.
Sure, many young ignorant folks would say,"let it all fall down" because then it would be chaos, and every man for himself.  Those here with nihilistic Rambo fantasies could grab their "bug out bags" and tac-vests and head for the hills.  You seem too smart to be one of those youngsters.
The cities of the 19th century were disease ridden hell-holes, but I think you are pining more for a bygone agrarian society.  If this is so, then you sound more Kmer Rouge or Shining Path then Libertarian.

I know what Stockholm Syndrome is.  Just because I don't consider myself a prisoner, like you, doesn't mean my head is in the sand.  Just because I'm a veteran AND a patriot, doesn't mean I'm in love with my supposed jailers.

This is our world.
You can attempt to change it, or deal with it.
You choose instead to whine about it.

I did NOT know that you pay taxes.  As this story proves, peolple find ways to avoid it.  I assumed that if you felt so strongly about it, that you would have had the moral courage to either not pay or to do something about it.  I apologize for making such an assumption.

Talk is cheap.

Rich314:

My comment on being prepared most certainly does not apply to everyone.

I agree that it is obvious that this particular church failed to obey the law.  In addition, that being the case, I strongly doubt their sincerity and validity as a true church to begin with.  Thus, they reap what they have sown and deserve no pity.

As to my own beleifs and concerns (and others of the same persuasion) this still smacks of a prelude to things to come.

The govt., ours and others, will most certainly sink their claws deeper and deeper into churches, and other social segments as well, as time continues on.  

The fact that it is a church, regardless of sincerity, validity, ability or spirituality is the key here.  The govt. cares not for ones own religious convictions.  The fact that it was/is a church in name alone is the point of interest.

There will be more.

But, then again, I trust nothing that the govt. does and do tend to get alarmed when they take steps into previously uncharted waters.

Peace

Carbine;

Take your "debate 101" text book to another forum.  

Everyone needs to pay some type of compensation to live in this country (or any country).  Doesn't mean I like the current HIGH TAX rates, but that's why we can elect officials who can correct that problem.  

Notwithstanding my lack of religious beliefs, which I will not discuss here, I think it is a bad sign when the government lays a heavy hand on churches that have broken no law except failing to "render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's"...

When I hear about the government shutting down churches I assume we are talking about CHINA.  I don't like this at all, and I don't even believe in a god.

X-ring, 10-4, I hear ya and somewhat agree.
I remember Hal Lindsay`s book The Late Great Planet Earth, Many things he prophesied, have come to pass, things, when I read them, i thought no way. Low and behold many things have come true in that book written in the 70`s. Persecution of the Christians was in it. If Revelations and Daniel are correct, and I`ve seen enough proof to think so. Then it will happen.
Bobby Dylan wrote a song when he was a Christian called PREESING ON. There`s a line that always comes back to me:
People try to stop me
mess me up in my mind,
say prove to me that He`s the Lord,
show me a sign.
What kind of sign they need,
when it all comes from within,
what`s been lost has been found,
what`s to come`s already been.
I just keep pressing on,
to the higher calling of my Lord.  

There is no scriptural reason not to pay taxes:

"Tell us, therefore, what do you think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?"

But Jesus perceived their wickedness and said, "Why do you test me, you hypocrites?"

"Show me the tax money."  So they brought him a denarius.

And he said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"

They said to him, "Caesar's."  And he said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

(Matthew 22:15)

Funny how people can intepret that to mean that Christians shouldn't pay taxes.  Seems pretty clear to me. If you read other passages, you will find that paying taxes and other civic responsibilities are not detrimental to a godly life.  In fact, they are essential to it.

Sounds like that church and its leaders were a bunch of hypocrites trying to save a buck.

Now, I will use every loophole I can to lower my tax burden.  And I hate paying what  I finally have to pay, but i'm not going to throw scripture at a purely secular problem.

It has been prophesied that our nation will be made to suffer because our nation which was founded as a nation under God has fallen from it’s high principles and has become a nation that only worships power, wealth and the ungodly. The sin of abortion and of homosexuality is not only permitted to exist but is actually protected by our government, and now there is the sin of cloning humans and all that it represents. So it is not just the fact that the government has taken a church since most churches do not represent God in reality, like the churches that have stopped supporting the Boy Scouts because of the Scouts not wanting homosexuals as members, but the fact that the government is willing to take a church, that is the problem. So what is next, will the government remove the tax exempt status from a church because it will not allow a homosexual or pro abortion group to use the churches property for a meeting. Or will the church be punished simply because it supports the Second Amendment. And this is quite possible since it has already been threatened. I believe the church was The Church Universal and this church had a large cache of weapons in case of Armageddon. This church was forced to give up it’s weapons to keep it’s tax exempt status. And what about Waco? The government has set a very dangerous precedent and has stepped over the line, so what is next. At least it gives us something to think about.

Well, this little snippet took off, huh?  I'm not a very religous person, my wife and son go to church quite often, but I rarely go myself.  Now, this being said the "beginning of the end" thing kinda rattled me.  Might ought to go to church more often.
    USPC40 thanks for pointing out the board codes, I did'nt even notice it when I posted.

Which begs the question:  Why does the Godly man need weapons in case of armaggedon?   Hmmm.

If you think you'll need a weapon then your faith must be exceedingly weak...then come to think of it you will need weapons.

I don't think the second amendment to our secular constitution is part of the "Kingdom of Heaven."

murph:

i will say one thing you are very good at making things up (pol pot?  thats a good one) and twisting words--you are VERY GOOD.  you definately have a political future in this country if you choose to go for it--you would fit right in.

so on that note i will end this right here because your last post was nothing but a complete joke and doesn't even merit a reply,  because if you knew me (like the several members that worked alongside me in my last campaign) you would understand why.  it seems that when you cant make your point on its merits you have to turn to making things up, but i guess that all depends on what "is" is. right?

maybe next time you can stick to the facts of an issue.

cheers murph

i wanted to discuss this with you because you seem to well grounded in scripture.  im a christian but not very religious.  

that said, it has been my (and others) belief that our bodies, our wives (husbands for you ladies out there), and our children are gifts from God and are therefore sacred.  so in my logic it follows that if you do not try to protect these gifts from known evil you are actually turning you back on God and implying that you are not greatful for all he has provided.

what is your opinion of this?

------sorry for the bold guys there is no code in my message for bold, i cant figure it out.  i guess i found a software bug--goatboy where are you!!!!!!!------

[b]Gus Laskaris

Funny how people can intepret that to mean that Christians shouldn't pay taxes. Seems pretty clear to me. If you read other passages, you will find that paying taxes and other civic responsibilities are not detrimental to a godly life. In fact, they are essential to it.

Sounds like that church and its leaders were a bunch of hypocrites trying to save a buck.[/b]

Right on brother, I have to agree.


[b]Sniper_762x51

Could this be the beginning of the end time as prophesied in the book of Revelation.[/b]


I am sure that you mean well but I have to respond. There is this "end times" kind of thing that many "believers" use to scare people. I include in that believers who are weak in the faith and are misled because they read into what is printed in Daniel and Revelation. I have a problem with the "experts" and I use that loosely, that try to insinuate that this is the Gospel when they don't actually know. There are many noted biblical scholars that disagree on just what Daniel and Revelation mean. I have a problem with movies and books such as the Lahaye Left behind series. It really appeals to the conspiracy side of man's nature. Hal Lindsey is getting rich off of that paranoia and I've even heard him branded as a bit of a nut. I don't think that you can say unequivocally that "Armeggedon or the Apocalypse" is going to involve believers. The Bible has been misused in the past because of individuals that take verses out of context and use them for gain. There are many that feel that believers will be removed before the Tribulation and will have no need for their weapons. But, I will be prepared for a disaster, or a riot or my govt becoming heavy-handed and the like. The bottom line is, your are in Gods hands.



[b]This one nation under God has forsaken God and for that, this nation will feel the wrath of God. The signs point to the end time being very close, and those of us who believe in God, should make sure that they are prepared for the day of judgment.[/b]

The best way to be prepared is to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Some folks confuse preparedness with paranoia. That relationship comes with reponsibilities to take care of your loved ones, etc.

[b]And those who do not believe I pray that you will find God in time so that you will be saved. May god have mercy on all of us.

It has been prophesied that our nation will be made to suffer because our nation which was founded as a nation under God has fallen from it’s high principles and has become a nation that only worships power, wealth and the ungodly.[/b]

Who made this prophecy about the CONUS and when?

[b]Or will the church be punished simply because it supports the Second Amendment. And this is quite possible since it has already been threatened. I believe the church was The Church Universal and this church had a large cache of weapons in case of Armageddon. This church was forced to give up it’s weapons to keep it’s tax exempt status. And what about Waco? The government has set a very dangerous precedent and has stepped over the line, so what is next. At least it gives us something to think about.[/b]

You are talking about a militant church who seemed like a genuine threat. Now I am not saying that every church in the US who has gunowners in it and supports the 2nd Amendment is a danger, but you just cannot equate the CUT with a tax dodging church.


[b]Carbine

that said, it has been my (and others)

You have to appreciate the symmetry of a government that sends 85 armed Federal agents and 70 state troopers to sieze and destroy a church for an "estimated" $6 million tax liability while in the same breath pardoning a felon who evaded $48 million in taxes.

Arock confused.

The symetry of our "civil" servants really contrasts against the lack of unity of the American people in rising up and [spank] taking care of business. Like you I hope, I would gladly make a stand for the right reason, but I ain't gonna be no lone ranger. Gun owners are going to be picked off one by one.  [xx(]

-Carbine, show me what I made up.  

Last campaign, huh?  Is letting us know that suppose reinforce your argument with some sort of credibility?  It ain't working.

This has run it`s course.

agreed, out.

I have read the bible, and am pretty familiar with the New Testament.  And I am a good son of the Greek Orthodox Curch.

The two essential passages of the New Testament, which define Christianity, are the "Sermon on the Mount" and the parable of the Prodigal Son.

The Sermon on the Mount (Beatitudes) tell a christian how to live a Godly life on earth.  You know, "Blessed are the Meek..."

The parable of the Prodigal Son shows us the way to salvation, through repentance, humility, and the grace of God.

If you read no other parts of the bible, these passages would be enough.  I don't see how anybody can be a "blood thirsty gun nut," fantasize about ballistic penetration, and still live up to Christian principles.

Again, you can take anything out of context.  Christ said that he came to bringing "the Sword" for example. This does not mean that we should "gird our loins" for battle.  The Word of God is the sword, after all.

Please cool your jets about "Revalations."  It is easy to misinterpret, especially if you don't know the  history of the Roman world at the time it was written.  

Now, I am as big a sinner as you.  Probably worse because I know what is right and still own and enjoy firearms.

But scripture should mold your life, your life should not try to mold scripture.  In other words, don't twist the Word to justify your sin.  

Are you saying owning a firearm and enjoying it`s uses is a sin???????????
I`ll give you a chance to respond before I tell you what I think of that statement. I dont think you meant that.

Is it a sin?  Who knows?

Do you think Christ would approve of our obsession with military rifles?  They are, after all, designed to kill our brothers.

Don't flame me, please.  It's a legitimate question, and something a devout Christian should think about.

murph man:

well since you asked. im not going to go through your post point by point. your silliness is quite apparent.  ill just leave it with this: the fact is that there is not one thing in your post that you attributed to me that i even posted with the exception that i thought the first 100 years of the u.s. were as close to a utopian system--and that is true.  but you, like many of the mealy mouth politicians,  will take a statement and MAKE-UP complete fabrications.  just like when one politician says he wants to "eliminate social security" his opponent will fabricate out of implication something to the effect of: "you want old people to starve and be thrown out on the street."

come on! i mean really! im surprised that you didnt say that i support the reinstatement of slavery (that was about the only one you left out) or something like that just because i said that i believe the U.S. political system of the 19th century was the near ideal system.

YOU knew EXACTLY what YOU were doing.  you were using clintonian logic.  you are completely disengenuous.

also the statement about my past campaigns was obviously not used for any credibility purposes (because that means nothing in anonymous online debates, agreed??)--my arguments stand on their own merits.  it was a personal (not argumentative) statement to let you know how silly your pol pot, fmln, and the other statements you made regarding my political thoughts was.  but YOU knew THAT too!!

murph, your arguments dont hold water.  

i rest my case, and that is that.

Man is judged by God,The Father on the basis of man's faith in God,The Son.
He who believes in the Son, as the one who died for our sins is saved. Those that reject the Son are condemned already.
The question of firearms and their possesion by Christians is irrelevent to the salvation of man. Man cannot earn his way into Heaven by good works, but only by his faith in The Son and what HE did to save us.

No flame, no blame. Buuut, dude, I have never even considered 'if Jesus would approve of my osession with military arms'.
Besides being a 'hobby', they are fascinating pieces of history and technology, really cool machines. When I buy AW`s, it`s not because I want to mow people faster than a bolt gun. While they are also a good means of self defense, it is not the primary reason of owning and collecting. In the eyes of Jesus I would think it`s no different than collecting old cars or stamps, because I dont view my AW`s as assault weapons ready to take on "the enemy" whomever that might be. I truly think of all my guns as guns, not weapons. Their primary reason is sport. If they are a deterent against a tryanical gvt, than so be it. If christians do become the target of persecution, then I believe Jesus would be sending angels to help his people do battle.
WOW,did I just say all that out loud?
A sin??? I hope you dont mind, but I gotta tell a couple people about this.[:)]

Some of you are missing the whole point here.  I share the religious beliefs of some that have posted here.  But the argument of "rendering unto Caeser that which is Caeser's" doesn't apply here.  The fact that a church got busted here is of no relevence either.  The fact IS though, that there are no laws that require a US citizen working in the US to pay taxes on his income.  Following is the text of my post on another site.


[i]Today the IRS seized the church in Indiana that has refused to withhold taxes from employee earning for the last 16 years. Why is the IRS enforcing laws that do not exist? There is no law in the IRS tax code that permits taxing of incomes of individual US citizens! As spelled out in the IRS tax code, the only INDIVIDUALS whose income is taxable are US citizens who are working or living abroad, and nonresident aliens working within the US! This is by their own code! There is also no law that requires a US citizen to have taxes withheld from his income. For reference, IRS publication 515 (Withholding of Tax on Nonresident Aliens and Foreign Corporations) states the following on page 4:

"EVIDENCE OF RESIDENCE: If an individual gives you a written statement stating that he or she is a citizen or resident of the United States, and you do not know otherwise, you do not have to withhold tax under the rules discussed in this publication."

The publication spells out the tax rules which businesses must abide by when employing nonresident aliens.

So why are individual US citizens paying income tax? When the tax laws were originally put into affect, the citizens probably had no idea that the law didn't pertain to them, and went ahead and filed. Obviously, the money hungry government wasn't going to send it back and tell them that the law didn't apply to them. They were getting rich! They now had piles of money with which to expand government, and they were not going to cut off a source!

What it all boils down to is the following: By providing a completed W4 to an employer you are authorizing him to withhold Social Security and Federal income taxes from your income, and thus you are entering into a contract. But there is no law that requires a person to have a Social Security number to work in the US. (But there ARE laws preventing the compelled disclosure of a Social Security number, or deprivation of rights and priveleges of a person that has no Social Security number.) Thus if you have no Social Security number you are not required to complete W4.

And further, by completing and signing a 1040, you are entering into a contract that states that you owe said taxes, whether you really do or not!

If you would like to research this further here are some sites to check out. Two of these sites are offering $10,000 to anyone who can prove them wrong.

[url]http://www.voluntarytaxes.com[/url]
[url]http://w3f.com/patriots/thelaw.html[/url]
[url]http://www.taxfreedom101.com/[/url][/i]


BTW check tomorrow's edition of USA Today.  There is supposed to be a full-page ad which will feature the photos and names of three ex-IRS Agents who have resigned their positions and have joined a growing number of former and present IRS officers, attorneys, Certified Public Accountants and retired judges who believe and assert that there is no law that requires most Americans to file an income tax return or to pay the federal income tax, and that the entire income tax system is founded upon fraud and is operated ille

Minuteman2K is right.  The church refused to withhold payroll taxes for its employees, as every employer is required to do.  That's all.  Just a bunch of morons who thought they were better than everyone else with a scam that didn't work.  And what happened to the militia types who were going to defend the church to the death?  I guess they forgot to set the alarm clock.

Jesus will not send angels to help his people do battle.  The truely faithful have no need of help.  Did the Lord "help" the martyrs of the church when they were persecuted?  Faith alone was there strength.

The earth, after all, is testing ground for saints.

I guess as Americans we have a somewhat imperfect understanding of Christianity, colored as it is by our "John Wayne" idealism.

[>:/]

[pissed]Yes, Minuteman2k was right about why the church was busted.  They refused to withhold taxes from employees.  But you are incorrect in assuming that withholding from US citizens is required.  It is NOT![pissed]

I seriously doubt they thought they were better than anyone else, but obviously they were smarter than most!  They knew that there are no laws that require withholding from US citizens.  The IRS only busted them to save face.  They can't let the church get away with this, even if the church is right, because that would  point to major fraud on the government's part, and the citizens of the US would be outraged that they had been lied to all this time.  Which is, in fact, the truth!

As far as the militia team is concerned, the church asked the militia team to leave, that they didn't want their help.  This was foolish on the church's part.  The militia saw that the church was about to be the target of more government abuse, and offered to help.  The truth is, there should have been hundreds of militia men there to stop it, whether the church wanted it or not!  One of the Constitutional requirements of the militia is preventing government tyranny!

You obviously didn't check the link that Minuteman2k had in his post.  That link points to my post on another forum which I have reproduced above.  

The Gov't may have their church, but it looks as if they won't give in!  Seems to perplex experts for some reason![:)]  They can't believe these people are still defiant.
[url]http://www.worldnetdaily.com/frame/direct.asp?SITE=www.starnews.com/news/articles/tax0214.html[/url]