Been looking into a tax stamp lately. The range I shoot at is a Class III dealer, and they have some cool stuff as you can imagine. Thing is, damn it will be expensive. Entry level guns start at around $3,000....and for a MP5, or a select-fire M16 in decent shape we are talking $10k +

Then of course there is ammo.....9MM is cheap enough....but 5.56? We are talking several hundred dollars worth of ammo just to shoot for an hour or so.

I am lucky enough to have a good job that pays me what I consider to be a decent salary....and I still dont think I can justify this kind of expense. A thousand dollar AR....fine...$100 to buy wolf buy the case..fine.....but $10,000 to buy the same rifle with an auto sear? damn. Unless you bring in a Dr. or lawyer salary, I dont know how anyone can afford it.

So...Im curious..how the hell do you guys come up with the money?
I know that income is a personal topic, so dont feel the need to post here if you dont want to...but please hit the poll so that I can get an idea of what kind of income the average full auto shooter brings home. If you want to tell your occupation feel free, but this is a completely annonymous thread. I will bump it a few times to keep it toward the front for a little while.

Thanks for any input....I just cant understand how anyone can afford this hobby on less than 100K a year income.

IBTP


(in before the poll)

Quoted: IBTP (in before the poll)

Indeed you were...indeed you were!

I think many people see it as 1) an investment (a very good one at that), and 2) an alternative to a sportscar, vacation, hookers, etc.  



Edit- look at it as investing in the stock market- except you can't loose and your profits are huge.  

It's about priorities!!!

Seriously, in my case, I'm single with no kids. I make a little under 6 figures, but without the expense of raising a family, driving a POS car, and living in an inexpensive area despite the long commute to work, it's no problem!  Well, it's still expensive and I'll never have a lot of the cool stuff other guys have.

Besides, with the current rate of appreciation, most are worth considerably more when you actually take possesion than when you bought them and filed the paperwork. At least you're not LOSING money....

put away a few hundred a month, adds up quick.

I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me.

As far as an investment...what weapons are the best at holding or earning value? Or do they all pretty much appreciate?

I can see it in that light....but then again...if I were to "invest" in a full-auto weapon it will probably become a safe queen.

Do what I did; start buying a decade ago.

Quoted: Do what I did; start buying a decade ago.

Bastard!!!!

Quoted: I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me.

They have a MAC10 with both 9MM and 45ACP barrels for about $3k at the place I go to.
Seems like a good deal, considering an M16 was like $12k !!!

How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment?

I eat crap every day of the week, and i drink the cheapest beer, and I still have to scrape up funds just to get a regular gun.

I paid $700.00 for a NIB PS M10 .45
          $2500.00 for a S&H HK94
          $249.00 each for Flemming sears
          $900.00 for a NIB HKSP89
          Traded a Flemming Sear for a AR15 RDIAS

That was all in the mid 90's & I thought I tied up way too much money in guns! I wish all the money I lost to the CEO scumbags in the stockmarket was put into guns insted!

The stuff I passed up on makes me wanna cry! 3k for a Vollmer 21 w/2 barrels Unfired! S&H MP5-SD w/HK laser trigger pack $4.5k NIB M16A1'a 2k

Ah! Those were the days!

How did I afford machineguns?  Fairly simple.   I'm single with no kids, drive a 5 year old car that 's paid for, and have no other expensive hobbies.  I bought my Uzi three years ago for $2.8k.  I bought my FNC two years ago for $2.5k with the knowledge that FNC auto-sears would become available sooner or later.  Then I picked up my FNC auto-sear last spring for $2.8k.  Three purchases all under $3k and I have two machineguns.

Quoted: I paid $700.00 for a NIB PS M10 .45           $2500.00 for a S&H HK94           $249.00 each for Flemming sears           $900.00 for a NIB HKSP89           Traded a Flemming Sear for a AR15 RDIAS That was all in the mid 90's & I thought I tied up way too much money in guns! I wish all the money I lost to the CEO scumbags in the stockmarket was put into guns insted! The stuff I passed up on makes me wanna cry! 3k for a Vollmer 21 w/2 barrels Unfired! S&H MP5-SD w/HK laser trigger pack $4.5k NIB M16A1'a 2k Ah! Those were the days!

Talk to me about a RDIAS.......the actual part is worth about $1....what does it cost (besides the $200 to uncle sam) to convert an AR15 to Title II legally? How does one obtain a real RDIAS?

Im thinking that has to be the cheaper option for me?
Exactly how are they registered? S/N on the actual sear?

Help me out...thanks

Quoted: How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment?

I've never heard about them being jammers - quite the opposite. And easy to clean, cheap replacement parts, etc..  ANY full auto is going to need replacement parts eventually if you actually take it out and play with it. I've always heard that UZI's were very reliable.

Quoted: Talk to me about a RDIAS.......the actual part is worth about $1....what does it cost (besides the $200 to uncle sam) to convert an AR15 to Title II legally? How does one obtain a real RDIAS? Im thinking that has to be the cheaper option for me? Exactly how are they registered? S/N on the actual sear? Help me out...thanks

You'd think an RDIAS would be cheaper, but it isn't (unless you're comparing it to an M16A2). Once you have the RDAIS you can convert any AR to full auto by installing the FA trigger group and carrier. Some machining will likely be required for the drop in to fit properly.  There are plenty of advantages to the RDIAS approach though - that's why they cost a little more than a registered receiver conversion.  It's strange to think of a little hunk of metal being worth over $10K......

A machinegun is just another high end toy. Consider an MP5 as an alternative to buying a Harley Davidson. Instead of spending all the extra money buying HD stickers for every vehicle you own, buying a complete black wardrobe to fit in with all your new HD friends, and buying a trailer to haul it anywhere over 50 miles away, you buy ammo and a suppressor. In a few years you sell the gun for much more than you paid for it if you don't like it. Try that with those old HD T-shirts.

There are many guns out there for you to choose from under $10,000. MACs, Stens, S&W76s, Reislings, Ruger KAC556s, etc. Its easy to get into C3 for $3-7k. Start reloading to feed the toy and now we're doing 9mm for about $6 per hundred. If ya wanna play, ya gotta pay....but it doen't have to be uber-expensive.

Edit: To answer the question, I'm retired military and $1600 of your tax money shows up in my mailbox every month. I now work at a factory making a whopping $14 something an hour. My wife delivers your tax money to me through her job at the USPS. She gets a good chunk of your tax money too. Damn, now that I think about it, you guys pay for all my toys. THANKS

I can only afford to keep doing my little part to end the '86 ban...


write letter, write letter, writ........

Quoted: A machinegun is just another high end toy. Consider an MP5 as an alternative to buying a Harley Davidson. Instead of spending all the extra money buying HD stickers for every vehicle you own, buying a complete black wardrobe to fit in with all your new HD friends (already have the black clothes and leather - just no bike ? , and buying a trailer to haul it anywhere over 50 miles away (when i get mine, there will be no trailer involved......ever), you buy ammo and a suppressor. In a few years you sell the gun for much more than you paid for it if you don't like it. Try that with those old HD T-shirts. (LMAO) There are many guns out there for you to choose from under $10,000. MACs, Stens, S&W76s, Reislings, Ruger KAC556s, etc. Its easy to get into C3 for $3-7k. Start reloading to feed the toy and now we're doing 9mm for about $6 per hundred. If ya wanna play, ya gotta pay....but it doen't have to be uber-expensive. ( I need to start reloading - I shoot so many cheap-to-buy-in-bulk calibers i never got into it) Edit: To answer the question, I'm retired military and $1600 of your tax money shows up in my mailbox every month. (Money well spent - thanks for your service) I now work at a factory making a whopping $14 something an hour. My wife delivers your tax money to me through her job at the USPS. She gets a good chunk of your tax money too. Damn, now that I think about it, you guys pay for all my toys. THANKS

Ok here's how I did it. Had a small boat when I lived near the coast, moved inland, never used the boat. Sold the boat. Took the money and set it aside. Sold stuff on ebay, don't ask me what, raised the rest of the money and bought an UZI.

Life insurance company went from whatever they were to a mutual company. Offered stock or a cash buyout. Cash was like $500. So I opted for the stock. Waited a few years, sold some stock, bought another UZI. Waited and then sold the UZI and made money. Took that money and sold some more stock and sold some title 1 guns and now I've got a M16 on the way.  Got a M11 in the safe but that belongs to the wife.  Still got some stock.

You'd be very surprised what you can make cleaning out your closets, buying and selling stuff on ebay. It takes full time dedication to do it. I don't do it full time, I go in spurts.

I have my gun money account, seperate from our home account. None of my paycheck is used for guns & toys, it pays the bills as does my wifes. But all the money I make on the side, all the stuff I find to sell is all mine to spend. You have to commit yourself & it will take all your free time to get there. Just like anything else, if you want it, you have to work for it. Being married makes it tough because you have to share your time, I have no kids but that doesn't make a difference because my earned income isn't part of the gun hobby. You have to work, two jobs, or making something, or selling stuff, etc. Work equals income.

Right now I've got a 1970 Olds Cutlass in the garage, been there for many years, it's a street rod that I built in high school. It's going to be sold next, and become a new machinegun.

I have to add, getting rid of stuff is the most liberating feeling. It's true the more you have, the more it has you, it is most applicable to quantity & clutter  IMHO. I feel really good and unburdoned when I get rid of a bunch of stuff, I don't feel burdoned when I have only one of something that is valuable. Less is more. And if you haven't used it in a year, sell it. Which reminds me of something else I need to sell....

i'm looking into getting an Uzi....right now they are still barely affordable but they are skyrocketing

Quoted: Quoted: Do what I did; start buying a decade ago. Bastard!!!!

Just wait, you can say the same in 10 years and someone new to the hobby will be saying bastard.

0 percent credit cards, cut the expense. I have friends tell me its too expensive but they buy 20K Harleys which are latter worth about 12.5K. Some buy boats, then sell them 20% of what they bought it for.  Some spend $150 in a bar, in one night and say man ammo is expensive.

Just buy the thing and enjoy your life. You will look at how you spend your money differntly afterwords.

Quoted: Quoted: I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me. They have a MAC10 with both 9MM and 45ACP barrels for about $3k at the place I go to. Seems like a good deal, considering an M16 was like $12k !!! How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment?

I've never had an UZI jam in my life.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me. They have a MAC10 with both 9MM and 45ACP barrels for about $3k at the place I go to. Seems like a good deal, considering an M16 was like $12k !!! How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment? I've never had an UZI jam in my life.

I've had my UZI jam a few times and each time it was the magazine.  There were 10 dollar mags from Knob Creek and a few had bent feed lips.  With good mags, no jams at all.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me. They have a MAC10 with both 9MM and 45ACP barrels for about $3k at the place I go to. Seems like a good deal, considering an M16 was like $12k !!! How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment? I've never had an UZI jam in my life. I've had my UZI jam a few times and each time it was the magazine.  There were 10 dollar mags from Knob Creek and a few had bent feed lips.  With good mags, no jams at all.

I stay away from inexpensive magazines, if possible.

Quoted: I think many people see it as 1) an investment (a very good one at that), and 2) an alternative to a sportscar, vacation, hookers, etc.   Edit- look at it as investing in the stock market- except you can't lose and your profits are huge.

Thing about that, though, is that the value is artificial. It could vanish at the stroke of a pen at any time. The MG ban could be repealed, and their value would instantly plummet to probably less then the cost of a new rifle. Or transfers between civilians could be banned, and you won't be able to sell it for anything.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have been thinking about getting me a mac-10 or something cheap like that for some FA fun. Other than that, I can bump fire my AR-15 all day, that's good enough for me. They have a MAC10 with both 9MM and 45ACP barrels for about $3k at the place I go to. Seems like a good deal, considering an M16 was like $12k !!! How are UZI's as far as reliability. I have heard they jam...but being a kid of the 70's and 80's....I was always facinated with that weapon. Would be a cool first full auto. Any UZI owners that can comment? I've never had an UZI jam in my life. I've had my UZI jam a few times and each time it was the magazine.  There were 10 dollar mags from Knob Creek and a few had bent feed lips.  With good mags, no jams at all.

I have shot a FA uzi a few times, never seen them jam or FTFire in any way...

The semi Uzi I had when I was a kid, now that thing would jam fairly regularly.

I sold a few title 1 guns recently to buy a belt fed, and although I took a bath with one, the 1919a4 I got immediately went up in price by $3000-$4000 so I am still ahead.  Plus I bought the others I have 5 years ago...
New money into guns is out of the question, with 2 kids to educate, college funds, and inevitably they will need help with their houses, and their kids when they have them....

Seriously, sell the title 1 stuff and get an MG.  These are the good old days.

Quoted: Quoted: I think many people see it as 1) an investment (a very good one at that), and 2) an alternative to a sportscar, vacation, hookers, etc.   Edit- look at it as investing in the stock market- except you can't lose and your profits are huge.   Thing about that, though, is that the value is artificial. It could vanish at the stroke of a pen at any time. The MG ban could be repealed, and their value would instantly plummet to probably less then the cost of a new rifle. Or transfers between civilians could be banned, and you won't be able to sell it for anything.

Awesome discussion. I wasgoing to ask you guys who see class III as an investment if you were worried about taking a hit if some legislation gets passed. I'm guessing you're not too worried about that, huh?

NUNYA

I make sacrifices like anyone else, and I work hard so I get to buy new toys as a personal reward.
Anyone can own a piece of class II equipment, just put your mind to it.
I am 33, single, own a home & some land, have a german shepherd, shit like that, nothing out of the ordinary. . . I am also not scared of using the old charge cards, but yet I keep a perfect credit score.... mainly I have no kids . . that might make a difference to some, but I find that most parents are far more well off than I am. . . Of course I bought my sear pack when they were $4500 and not a freaking rediculous $10K  
WTF is that all about right -- Fuck that!

BTW....

Thanks for all the input...I got a lot more responses than i expected.
I am still on the fence, but have more food for thought.

0 percent credit cards, cut the expense. I have friends tell me its too expensive but they buy 20K Harleys which are latter worth about 12.5K. Some buy boats, then sell them 20% of what they bought it for. Some spend $150 in a bar, in one night and say man ammo is expensive. Just buy the thing and enjoy your life. You will look at how you spend your money differntly afterwords.

AR9mm - I tend to agree with you completely...and that is how I can justify dropping several hundred on ammo in one day...just to stock in case I feel like hitting the range.

Something tells me F/A is in the near future!!!

Think about it, how much do you need to make before you can afford an MG-42?  That's a $35,000 gun in today's market.  To make $35,000 you'd need to gross almost $55,000.  Assuming you didn't have a mortgage, car or a need to eat for that matter you could buy one after a year.

I think it's a safe bet that the people scooping up the guns in the $15K + range are making a lot more than that.

Quoted: Talk to me about a RDIAS.......the actual part is worth about $1....what does it cost (besides the $200 to uncle sam) to convert an AR15 to Title II legally? How does one obtain a real RDIAS? Im thinking that has to be the cheaper option for me? Exactly how are they registered? S/N on the actual sear? Help me out...thanks

Well check all the gun boards you know of! They turn up from time to time! Expensive! Expect to pay close to 10k for one! Usually the seller already has it in a host gun!
I traded one of my Flemming HK sears to another Classlll dealer who had a factory SP89PDW for my registered AR15 DIAS.
Im running mine in a RockRiver M4 Clone & it runs 100% Besides having to change all the internals to M16 parts I had to have the lower reciever shelf dropped abit to fit the sear! The nice thing about it is Im going to get a 9mm upper soon so I can actually get some use out of this thing on the indoor range! Kinda like having more than one gun! The sear has the Mfg Name,City,State & SN stamped on it!

I think it's great bcause I can have a beater 16 & not worry about banging it up although Im so anal even my beaters get the kid glove treatment!

Good luck to you! If you find one, Get it!

Ever notice that class 3 guys send their kids to school barefoot and in rags?

See that tarpaper shack over there with the rusty 39 YO car parked in front of it?


Believe it or not, the guy makes $350,000 a year!


Boy, he has some great Class 3 stuff!

Well its simple what do you care about.

Dont buy a new car, thats the price of most full autos, or more then one there.  It will lose value, more when its messed up.

I dont piss away money on stuff, Im very cheap.

Its all in how you manage it.

I make $9.03 an hour and I just got a raise at work to get that.

My uzi never has jammed except with the 22lr kit.

Quoted: Something tells me F/A is in the near future!!!

Have you ever fired any machine guns?  If not, the first time you do will definately push you over the edge!!  BTDT!!

The salary distribution is not quite what I expected, good to see though!

It's really just about priorities, whatever you do don't do what I did.

I started seriously thinking about an NFA AR registered receiver just about 24 mos ago. I wasn't making as much money as I am now but at the time they could be had for around $5000, UZI was about $3k and a MAC11 was about $1300, a lightning link was in the $2500 range if I recall and FNC's were about $4000. It was the end of the year and I had the money if I scraped a little but just couldn't justify dropping 5 grand on an AR regardless of how cool it was. Instead I put it in the market where it's made about $1500...meh not bad but not much fun either.

Fast forward to about 15 mos go and AR prices had now increased to the $6500-7000 range...holy crap in less than a year it went up by that much. Talked to a local dealer about picking one up but by now since the price has gone up it's definitely more than I was willing to pay. Uzi's and Mac's had also increased by about 25% or so and I really wasn't in the market for a subgun so Iwasn't that interested.

Fast forward to today, there is just no way I'm paying damn near $10k for an AR or DIAS. I mean WTF? But by now I've realized that this is a pattern likely to repeat itself so I've bitten the bullet and put down funds for an FNC at *more* than a price that I passed on an NFA AR 2 years ago. Not quite as versatile and I'm going to spend more on some parts to make it what I want, but still a very serviceable rifle. It also helps that all those sears on the market have helped create a bit of demand so I'm hoping parts won't be huge issue in the future.

So because of my farting around I've basically had to settle for something that wasn't exactly what I wanted and left $5k just sitting on the table. So I'm tired of missing the boat for an item that I know I'll be buying in the future at what is likely to be an inflated price. (I could be *way* wrong on this depending on how the Stewart decision goes but I'll *gladly* burn that money if it does).

For what it's worth my dad bought his Ingram Mac 10 back around 1973 for $75. Now it's probably worth $2500 and these are considered the 'cheap' submachine gun. Sure would've been nice if he'd bought several M60's instead. If I recall he had loaned the gun to the local police dept for most of it's life where it sat in their safe but I still remember back in 1986 when he brought it home and mentioned that they were passing a law that said after 'x' date you could no longer buy new machine guns. It didn't mean much to me at the time (what the hell right, we already had one, what was the big deal?) DOH!

And just think....we're only 18 years removed from the '86 ban.

Anyway another interesting picture is one I found of the FNC sear....check this out below it's really depressing. This little tiny piece of completely unexceptional metal (or more accurately, the paperwork that goes along with it) is worth what... $3000?  
Can you *imagine* how many of these things you could stamp out in a day's work? In a week's? A year's? Spend some money on a tax stamp, register 'em, throw 'em in a closet for 20 years and retire.

If you're not sure, go with something really inexpensive (mac) or slightly nicer like an uzi or if you want a rifle get an AC 556. Scrape up the $2500 for a mac11 and shoot the crap out of it, what do you have to lose here? Do you think they're going to get cheaper in the coming years?

I personally don't think prices are going to go down unless a major change happens in congress or the supremes do something unexpected (again I'd love to see it). Look at the crap that went into letting the AWB sunset....that wasn't even a *repeal* just simply letting the law expire as intended! holy cow the sheeple will FrEAk if they think unrestricted machine gun sales on every streetcorner are coming.

Anyway good luck with your decision.
-Observer

oh yeah here's what I'm buying for $3000....(and it doesn't even include the dime)

Quoted: Ever notice that class 3 guys send their kids to school barefoot and in rags?Kids???  And WTF are they doing wearing my good gun rags?? See that tarpaper shack over there with the rusty 39 YO car parked in front of it? Believe it or not, the guy makes $350,000 a year! Boy, he has some great Class 3 stuff!That would be minigun owner status - what's wrong with that?

I sold my last three girlfriends.

Edit to add: I just got slapped on the back of the head for that remark!


Anyone want a dirty blonde 24 year old? I want a HK21 + cash

Quoted: Quoted: I think many people see it as 1) an investment (a very good one at that), and 2) an alternative to a sportscar, vacation, hookers, etc.   Edit- look at it as investing in the stock market- except you can't lose and your profits are huge.   Thing about that, though, is that the value is artificial. It could vanish at the stroke of a pen at any time. The MG ban could be repealed, and their value would instantly plummet to probably less then the cost of a new rifle. Or transfers between civilians could be banned, and you won't be able to sell it for anything.

If the MG ban were to be repealed, i think most would be glad to take the hit (though there is less than a .001% chance of that happening).  And if transfers were to be stopped (not all that unlikely) we would get some warning and the price and demand would go through the roof.

Quoted: put away a few hundred a month, adds up quick.

I make a few hundred a month. What do I put away, $50?

Quoted: oh yeah here's what I'm buying for $3000.... www.eliseerotic.com/arfcom/fncsear.jpg

 Anybody remember the thesis of Henrys' paper?

If they repealed it Id be glad to take the hit.

Gold...  They dig up more of it every day
Diamonds...  They mine more of it every day
Homes...  Build more every day

Transferable Machineguns...  What was there in 86 is all there ever will be (unless something shocking happens, which I woullgladly take the hit on to be able to buy more).

Edited to add, Uzi's are built like a tank!  Mine runs like a mother, not much there to go wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: put away a few hundred a month, adds up quick. I make a few hundred a month. What do I put away, $50?

Learn to bump fire.

Quoted: Quoted: Do what I did; start buying a decade ago. Bastard!!!!

This is so true...why do you tease us so?

I just have a little help from my bitches to control my Class III firearm purchase urges.







CW

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: put away a few hundred a month, adds up quick. I make a few hundred a month. What do I put away, $50? Learn to bump fire.

Bump fire : masturbation:: Transferable MG : Sex


Sometimes, you just need the real thing.