[url]http://www.lewrockwell.com/sobran/sobran166.html[/url]

And the point is?

I still associate the Confederate Flag with slavery, and always will. I know other contries had slaves too. It's just, I really don't give a rat's ass about another country and the slaves they had/have. I live here. I go there to visit (or work usually).

Still thinking exactly what the point is.

And before you give me... "It's part of our history, blah, blah, blah..." Yeah, I sat trew that class in Middle School/Junior High too, and I also remember the slavery part that came after it.

If we go back far enough in time, every race, religion, country, has been a slave to some other race, religion, country.  There are no exceptions

Get over it.  The weak will always be governed by the strong.  That flag is nothing more than a fledgling Nation's banner.  However, that Nation was wrong to incorporate slavery into it's Constitution.

The American Civil War was fought over States Rights.  Abraham Lincoln could have cared less if a single slave was freed.  His [b]ONLY[/b] concern was the preservation of the Union at all costs, even the cost of personal liberty.  It was only at a point where the Union forces were suffering such a sustained high rate of casualties, that the Emancipation Proclimation was written.  

The fact the Black soldiers were paid a small fraction of the White soldiers pay, and that NO Black could command a White, proves the Union could care less about the issue of slavery.  You can trace the continual erosion of our Rights by the Federal Government back to the beginning of that terrible conflict.

If it were only true that the most terrible war America fought, was for the freedom of [b]ALL[/b] people, regardless of their race, color, creed, religious beliefs.....then it would have been a noble cause.  

Instead it was a war of Northern Aggression, waged against the States that had legally withdrew their association with Federal Tyrants.

Semper Fi

ET3, sitting threw (sic) Middle School and Junior High School history class does not qualify you to know what you are talking about. (This is the same school system that failed to teach you how to spell the word through when you used as you did in your post.) You may want to take the time to open a book other than one a teacher asked you to in order to properly educate yourself on the issue.
This country had slavery in it for 89 years under the US flag. Why do you not associate it with slavery instead?

You have made it clear that the only knowledge you have on the subject is that which you gained in a liberal ran state kiddie school. (The only reason I can think of that you did not mention high school is because you have either not started it yet or dropped out before taking a history class there.) You have also stated that you will always think that way so therefore it is safe to assume that attempting to educate you with facts at this point is a waste of time. Therefore I will simply leave you with this;
It is better to remain silent and have those around you think you a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation only applied to the states that were in rebellion. Not only did the U.S. Constitution recognize and condone slavery from the start, but it continued to do so for some time after the Confederacy ceased to exist.

How could one side be so evil, and the other side be so good, when they were both doing the same thing?

I'm not going to give you that "It's part of our history..."

What I am going to give you is this:  
Apparently the liberals are alive and well in their pursuit of changing history.  You are a prime example of what they have accomplished.  What the Civil war was about was STATES RIGHTS.
The war began and was fought over the secession of the Southern States, not slavery.  That didn't even come into focus until the war was nearly over.  
I whole heartedly agree with what DPreacher said about Northern aggression against states that had legally withdrew from the Union.
It was by far the most terrible war that has ever been fought, brother against brother, father against son. And it's a shame that so many people think that this horrible war was about slavery, because it wasn't!

ET3, you don't care about the slavery that exists even today?  That is what I take from your post.  Not a flame, but if you are that passionate about slavery, why aren't you raising cain about that?  Yes, slavery was wrong then and now.  Do you feel this anger towards the African tribes which raided villages and sold the captives they did not need themselves to the Western world to be used as slaves?  These same tribes still practice that today. We should not focus on one narrow aspect of the big picture, but look at everyone and everything involved.
Slavery ended 136 years ago in this country.  It was wrong, but it is gone.  Give it a rest, please.  I am not defending slavery, but we have more important things to worry about than a flag.  We have a group of people in this country who would disarm the populace so that they eventually can enslave all of us.  Maybe not in the sense you might think, but the result would be that our ability to choose our own life and make our own decisions will be taken away.  Might as well be slaves.  The people of the old USSR were slaves in that way.  I am not one of the conspiracy theorists, but this is the only reason I can see for all the gun control initiatives.  It is not about crime, it is about power.

It has always been my belief that the Confederate flags got their "symbol of slavery" from the hate groups(KKK, etc.)  How many clan rallies have you seen where someone is waving a confederate flag?  That is where much of the rest of the world has seen the flag.  They know nothing of the soldiers and history under which that flag was flown. That is a shame.

Lots of things can be "associated" with something else. Just look at our beloved ARs, they're black and look like a machine gun, so they must be bad and the people who own them bad. So, when does the U.S. flag come down, since it is associated with slavery.

BMB  

The Civil War was started over the issue of state's rights..... historically accurate.

I just wonder though why President Lincoln when meeting Harriet Beecher Stowe who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin, made the remark: "So you are the little lady that started this war..."

It may have begun over the issue of state's rights but it is also clear that slavery was an issue then and remains an issue to this day whenever the rebel flag is displayed.

If the rebel flag wasn't a banner for slavery then - it certainly has become that to many over the years and I have witnessed many a "good ol' boy" talk that talk to this day.

So if the idea has become fashionable of the rebel flag representing a consenting nod to slavery, it has been sustained by many - not all - of those who wave it so proudly.

Should those living in the northern states adopt a flag to show their "northern pride"?  How about the west or the eastern states?  Why don't we just do away with the U.S. Flag altogether and just go with each individual state flag and call ourselves the Independent States of America?  Or would that be Amerika?

If we allow our bigotry or "area pride" to overshadow our pride as The United States of America then we will aid and abet those who already are working vigorously in that very direction.

Subtle..... but effective - don't you think?

Wake up and smell the coffee people!  Why are we wasting time arguing over something that should have been settled 138 years ago and start gearing up to fight what may be the greatest fight for freedom for all Americans we have ever faced - a war from within - the wholesale destruction of our Constitutional rights?  Any student of war will tell you that one of the easiest ways to defeat an enemy is to turn it's attention to arguing and fighting amongst themselves.  Then you attack - and the chance of victory is greatly increased.

Naw..... let's just keep on squabbling over stupid things and pay no attention to what looms perilously nearby...... that'll keep us free!


[sniper]
[b]The Sniper

I mean no disrespect, but if slavery was wrong at that time in history, how could this country have been built? I do not believe John Deeres were for sale at the time. We often look back and condemn land owners from that era, but can someone explain how it could have been done a different way? It's not right to judge people from a distant past by todays standards, as we sit at our computers with our airconditioners going and icebox full of processed foods. Maybe instead of saying slavery was wrong, it would be more accurate to say slavery was a bad necessity. Many blacks that today enjoy comforts made possible because of slavery, would not change a thing if it they had to give up their present day comforts and revert back to the hardships of those times.

You have every right to defend your parents, your friends, your family, whatever you feel passionate about...

..... YOUR FLAG my friend is THE STARS AND STRIPES - OLD GLORY!  And let me say without prejudice that if that is a problem for you then you can leave the United States of America and find yourself another home as far as I am concerned and as far as many others are concerned.  However, if you wish to put YOUR FLAG (read flag of the state of Alabama) under the US Flag and honor that - then I will stand and fight with you to defend your right to honor that state banner....

If not.... God help you!

(P.S. - this is not to be misconstrued to be a personal threat to a fellow board member.  I am excercising my First Amendment right to free speech which I hold so dear!)


[sniper]
[b]The Sniper

By paying for the labor on whatever terms agreed upon by the employers and those laborers... not forced labor and enslavement.

Sad truth is that we soon realized that the Aficans that were sold into slavery in Africa were turned over to the buyers by their own families and others who profited from selling their fellow countrymen and women.

Greed is a powerful thing and the Word of God says that the "love of money is the root of all evil.."  Notice that money is not the problem - it's the [b]love of money[/b].

Put yourself in the place of one who was sold as a piece fo merchandise and then taken to a foreign country and bought like a piece of meat at market.  Then you are forced to work and live on your master's plantation and many times you felt the pain of a whip on your back because you spoke out or tried to run away.  Maybe your wife or daughter was raped by a male member of the master's household and you could do nothing about it.  Let's say your wife, son, or daughter was sold to another owner and taken away as if they were animals.

Yes..... let's all just think on that one a while....

[sniper]
[b]The Sniper

A fact of history here everyone...History is written by the winners.  Even wars were titled by the victor.  The French and indian war.  The where the french and indians were beaten by the british and colonized americans.  The war was named so everyone could remember who lost.  Our history is tought the same way.  The north won, the south lost.  I'm from Canada and really dont give a shit, but everything one would be tought in whatever form of formal education is about how bad the south was, how unfairly it treated blacks and slaves in general, and that the north in its great wisdom and power saved everything by defeating the evil south.  The history books dont often bring up the fact that many northerners prior to the civil war themselves owned slaves and had anyone who was a debtor treated as a slave as well.  The history books also fail to bring up the fact that the city I live in now, Atlanta, was damn near burnt to the ground by the northern army. Destoying many historical buildings here. They also fail to mention the raping and pilaging of the local women residing here during those times.  But all of these atrocities are indeed facts, just the winners of the war felt they were not an important part of history to teach, especially to the ones who were beaten, i.e. the south.  The flag in GA is one of the ones that have been changed due to political presure.  The new flag is ugly but it is flying.  I'm not trying to say what is right or wrong here, but this is an example of how our politicians are so easily influenced by other groups.  Change the flag, most wont care too much,  hey while we're at it why don't we take a stab at more gun control, that group has been presuring us to?  Everyone needs to worry about the real issue which is our politicians.  Join the NRA, vote for people that support our cause and the 2nd amendment and make a difference, or your state flag wont be the only thing changing!!! Just a few more than my .02!!
[flag]

DPeacher,

You are indeed correct in saying that the immediate cause of the secession of the Southern states was over the cause of states' rights.

But what was the most important state right that the states wished to retain?  The right to maintain their own laws and customs regarding the institution of slavery.

Slavery was the overriding historical cause of the civil war, even if it was not the immediate specific cause (which was the election of Abraham Lincoln, the first president of the newly established Republican party, controlled by abolitionists).  If slavery had not existed, I doubt that the other issues of the day, such as tariffs would have brought the nation to a civil war.

I respect the opinion of those Southerners who say that the Confederate battle flag symbolizes their heritage.  I also think that they should in turn acknowledge the opinion of those who see the flag symbolizing something else.  In today's day, the flag is often appropriated by groups such as the KKK, with predictable consequences.  People who wish the Confederate flag to be respected should vigorously speak out, and publicly, against the individuals who wrap up their hate in it.

Thanks for your opinion Sniper but if it is ok with you I will be loyal to any goddamn flag I please.      CONFEDERATE

Some people like conveniently to forget that some blacks actually fought under the Confederate flag.  There were freed blacks ( some of whom were actually land and slave owners themselves) serving as Confederate soldiers.  Toward the end of the war, the Confederate army pressed some slaves into service with the promise of their freedom at war's end.

I would like to remind everyone that comparing the Stars and Stripes to the Stars and Bars is comparing apples to oranges, the "confederate flag" is the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, NOT the flag of the Confederacy. It was not flown over slaves quarters or government buildings, it was carried into battle by our soldiers. It deserves it's place of honor no matter what the idiots like the Klan want to say about it. I don't see people up in arms about the Bonnie Blue Flag! I am a patriotic American, but I am still proud of my Confederate ancestors.

BTW, I'm from Nashville & everywhere you go here is a battlefield. you can find miniballs & even cannonballs from that war in the backyard here. There are still buildings that are in ruins from that war all around, so anyone from Kalifornia or other states that didn't see the war first hand should leave it alone, you don't know what you are talking about.

[%(]

You are referring of course to the forced child labor at a penny a day in the factories in the industrialized North of the time?
I worked both ways.


ckapsl, you are partially correct in that slavery was one of the state rights that were involved. But it was far from the only one nor the most important.
The number of territories that had been grantedd statehood at the time were nearly equal. Therefore the number of US Senators were nearly equal as well with no real advantage to either the North or the South. However, because of the build up of cities in the industrial North and their swelling populations the number of US Congressmen, determined by the number of people in the state, was growing exponentially. The South was losing all of her rights at a rapid rate.
Now spring forward to the last election. Remember the number of votes that Gore got in the major cities and how many Bush got in rural areas? Remember how we all felt watching the election and seeing the bed wetting, pillow biting liberals in the city nearly take the election so big government could care for them? Now you know how the South felt in 1861.

Slavery gone ? I'm in deep trouble since nobody told me.

ALWAYS REMEMBER:

"IF I WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT WAS COMMING TO THIS I WOULD HAVE PICKED MY OWN DAMN COTTON..."

Post from the Sniper -

Well, ya'll do whatever ya'll want, we already have our flag picked out.[:D]


Now how could having each area or region of the country picking out their own special flags, be associated with [b]Amerika(?)[/b], which I assume you must mean to be some sort of centrally-directed, facist government? Sounds a bit more like anarchy, to me, which is the absence of such a powerful central government.


Well, there were pretty strong feelings about the subject back in the late 1890's and we still fought the Spanish-American War to a successful conclusion.

There were still some pretty strong feelings about the 'War' when World War I began, and the U.S. managed to beat the Huns (ouch!) handily.

Again, white Southerners were still pretty bent outta shape over the 'War' when Pearl Harbor was attacked.  We seemed to overcome our regional differences to mold a military juggernaut, the likes of which this World had never before seen.

Ditto for Korea, and Vietnam.  Especially in Vietnam, where black soldiers and their Dixie-
whistling Southern brethren managed to come to some sort of truce for the duration of the conflict.

So, I'm really not certain where all this angst over the possibility that pride in our Southern heritage would have a deleterious effect on our national unity and impair our ability to conduct a united military front against a common foe.

It hasn't happened so far in our History, and since the effect will only be lessened over the coming years, I wouldn't lose too much sleep over a buncha' white guys waving a flag.


You just know that when the North was undergoing its industrial revolution that the employment terms of the factory laborers were one of the uppermost items on the collective mind of the factory owners...NOT.

Don't talk about 14+ hour days, pittance wages, children as young as 7 (and younger) working in the mines in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, or in the sweat shops of the great northeastern cities, company goons beating the crap outta the poor uneducated laborers, company stores that robbed the working poor of the North with just as much zeal as any plantation overseer.

I know that those African slaves didn't just walk to Savannah to go onto the auction block to be sold into this peculiar institution. The
great ships of the North were the preferred method of trans-Atlantic transportation.

Eric The(NonSlaveOwning)Hun[>]:)]

The simple fact is that the Confederate Flag doesn't stand for Slavery or Racism.  However, 97% of the people that fly that flag are probably racist.  

I assume that's just a 'guestimate' right? I mean, I'm not certain that such a statement could ever be supported by the evidence? I mean, how does one define a 'racist'? Is it based simply on internal prejudice or outward expression? If internal, whose word are we taking that an honest response is given?

I could say that 97% of the people who support Louis Farrakahn are probably racist, and have as little facts to back up that guess as you have for your number.

Eric The Hun[>]:)]

The reality is that most Southerners did NOT own slaves.  Slaves were for plantation owners and wealthy businessmen but the dirt farmer living in the hills couldn't afford to keep slaves.  

Most folks don't realize it but slaves are expensive to keep.  You might not have to pay a wage but after the initial investment you have to house and feed them and provide clothing as well as medical care or your investment will lose all of its value.  With an employee none of that is your concern.

From a Walter Williams article. Mr Williams is negro.

"History books have misled today's Americans to believe the war was fought to free slaves.

Statements from the time suggest otherwise. In President Lincoln's first inaugural address, he said, "I have no purpose, directly or  indirectly, to interfere with the institution of slavery in the states where it exists. I believe I have no lawful right to do so."

During the war, in an 1862 letter to the New York Daily Tribune editor Horace Greeley, Lincoln said, "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery." A recent article by Baltimore's Loyola College Professor Thomas DiLorenzo titled "The Great Centralizer," in The Independent Review (Fall 1998), cites quotation after quotation of similar northern sentiment about slavery.

Lincoln's intentions, as well as that of many northern politicians, were summarized by
Stephen Douglas during the presidential debates. Douglas accused Lincoln of
wanting to "impose on the nation a uniformity of local laws and institutions and a
moral homogeneity dictated by the central government" that "place at defiance the
intentions of the republic's founders." Douglas was right, and Lincoln's vision for our
nation has now been accomplished beyond anything he could have possibly
dreamed.

A precursor for a War Between the States came in 1832, when South Carolina called a
convention to nullify tariff acts of 1828 and 1832, referred to as the "Tariffs of
Abominations." A compromise lowering the tariff was reached, averting secession and possibly war. The North favored protective tariffs for their manufacturing industry. The
South, which exported agricultural products to and imported manufactured goods from Europe, favored free trade and was hurt by the tariffs. Plus, a northern-dominated Congress enacted laws similar to Britain's Navigation Acts to protect northern shipping interests.

Shortly after Lincoln's election, Congress passed the highly protectionist Morrill
tariffs.

That's when the South seceded, setting up a new government. Their constitution was nearly identical to the U.S. Constitution except that it outlawed protectionist tariffs, business handouts and mandated a two-thirds majority vote for all spending measures.

Did anyone ever bother to teach you in school that more Blacks fought for the Confederacy than against it. I never realized how wrong the teaching I got in school was. Blacks fought for the South!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The flag of Slavery Is the Stars and Strips.
It flew over the American ships that brought those poor slaves over here in the first place. It was rich New Englanders and Northerners who owned most of the Slave ships in the early 1800's. There was no such thing as the Confederacy when most of the slaves were imported.
Slavery was dead wrong!! No one should ever be enslaved.
To bad the Media and the revisionist historians won't tell the truth. The truth is that as long as Blacks and Whites don't get along there is money to be made and power to be gained by controlling peoples emotions.
The way to control most people's minds is through their emotions and fears. Hitler was a master at it. So is Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. A message of hate is easy to sell someone who is down and out. The race of a person is of no importance in controlling his mind. God help us if we allow our children to hate each other because of what race they are!!

Our human weakness was made evident by "States Rights".  The fatal flaw of the original Constitution was slavery.  Originally it was accepted out of economic necessity.  There should have been an acknowledgment of it's fundamental injustice, especially in light of the words of the Declaration of Independence proclaiming "all men are created equal".  They should have resolved publically to right this in a specified period of time, perhaps an amendment that emancipation would take place in 10 or 15 years.  Economies are difficult to fiddle with without some injustices taking place.  Any foreknowledge of the Civil War would of course make these injustices pale in comparison to the suffering and carnage of the War and damage to the Union and to the Constitution through increased Federal control and less "States's Rights"  Kind of ironic that failing to do the right thing was essentially their downfall.

You must still look evenly at this and realize the value of State's Rights was cheapened by Jim Crow laws and other shenanigans of "leaders" of impoverished morals and thought.

I don't own any slaves, nor have I ever owned any slaves. No one in my recent ancestory has owned any slaves. The Confederacy and its flag makes me think of people standing up for their rights, not wanting the Federals dictating every point of their lives much like they do today. I need a license to holster my firearm in the morning, I need a license to drive down to the lake so that I can buy a fishing license to go catch some trout. What? Oh, so you mean I need a special tax stamp on top of the fishing license I just bought to fish for trout? It is to the point of being rediculous.

Had I lived in that time and had the choice to join which ever side I wanted, just take a guess which one I would pick. If those who fought for the other side knew then what we know today about how the federal govt has taken over everyones everyday lives, you can bet your sweet ass that flag you hate so much would be flying over your post office right now. And it would have absolutely nothing to do with slavery. Those who think the Confederate flag represents slavery knows nothing about this country's history.

Ill give up my flag the same time I give up my guns.

Michael

Amen Ponyboy!!!!!!!!!!!
I won't give up my flag either.

There is no longer a conferderacy.  The civil war ended over a hundred thirty years ago.  The confederate flag represents a rogue nation that was defeated and no longer exists.  

Was slavery the real issue?  Who cares!  
I beleive that preservation of the Union was more important.  There is nothing American in embracing the values of the confederacy.  They instigated a war.  Whether it was over states rights or individual freedom is irrelevent.  What is relevent is that there was something that Lincoln found more important than any of the reasons previously stated.  He saw the potential of our institution and the hypocracy of our ways.  If he had to allowed the south to seceed it would have undermined the the foundation of the constitution.  And every level of gov't. would have eventually fallen into disarray.  To sacrifice the lives of Americans for the sake of the republic is a hard thing but if anyone thinks that the confederacy was "American" in it's actions then you need to do more than read the history books.

I want to make a couple of replies to specific people, but I have too much to say.

I will say this though -

1. I know the war wasn't completely about slavery (well, that's what I think. I don't [b]know[/b] because I wasn't there.)

2. I have an associates degree in Computer Science and Electrical Engineering thank you very much. The fact that I may misspell something, or use wrong grammar or even a wrong word just says (to me) that either I don't care enough to check, or I'm human (maybe it's just I don't know everything).

Now back to what I was saying in the first place, I will always associate the confederate flag with slavery. Regardless of the fact that I know it wasn't made originally to represent that. I know whoever designed that flag didn't say, "Yes, this will make a perfect racist flag." But that's exactly what my first thought is whenever I see someone flying it. Especially when it's flown over the National Ensign.

Just to spark a little thought, why is it that only White (Caucasian, excuse me) people fly the confederate flag? (To clarify for those who [b]will[/b] misunderstand me. I'm not saying that it's wrong to fly it because no one else does.)

I have nothing else to say here. Flame away again if you wish. I hope you feel very gratified when your done know that you [i]"told my ass".[/i]

until ''THEY"" get over it ,THEY  will always be persicuted.im sick and tired of my goverment making ME feel responsible for slavery.my great great greandparents came here poor and on the bottom of the latter.they never owned any slaves.listen to al sharpten and jesse jackson and youd think every white persons ancestors owned slaves.iv herd rumors of the goverment paying money to decendants of slaves.o pa lese we,i dont owe THEM a dam thing.
sorry to ramble a bit off the subject.

Valkyrie,
You just don't get it do you. How can you force a union. The Southern States Signed the Declaration of Independence. The Northern States wanted to control aspects of the Government that the South rightly believed should be controlled by the States themselves.
You sound like a typical Liberal.
The South was free to join the Union and free to leave it as well. What good is a forced union.
Freedom died when Lee surendered. The South is an occupied country. Its really no different than how the Soviets occupied Europe after WWII.
The Southern States were forced to ratify ammendments to the constitution before they were allowed back into the Union. The constitution does not exist as is was intended by the Founding Fathers. Thats the truth and and you can believe it or not!

Nothing personal but you are wrong and we are just going to have to disagree with each other on this issue.
 

The Confederacy has nothing to do with the civil war. It has to do with a way of thinking and a way of life. It has to do with the "leave me the hell alone and mind your own business" mentality. The Confederacy is still alive and well among many in the south. If it wasn't do you really think we would be having this discussion?

I have many black friends and many of them feel the same way as some of yall do about the rebel flag. Most of them don't believe what I tell them about the civil war and why it was fought and who can blame them? After all, you are taught it all through school that the south only wanted slaves and started a war over it. Remember, the winners of the war write the history books. I can understand their point as well, most of them were brought up with their parents telling them that it stands for slavery. Then the skinhead/white supremacy movement has done the flag no good by waving it around at all of their rallies and such.

It is absurd to think that the entire South united to start a war with the Union over slaves that only 1% of them owned. That would be like me joining a war for a bunch of farmers that use John Deere tractors. It was all about rights that were being trampled on by the Federal govt while the southern states received nothing in return.

I have no problem with people who don't like the confederate flag, you have a right not to like it but as long as it does no harm to you, then.....tough shit. I don't like BET (black entertainment television) so do you know what I do? I don't watch it. I don't cry and whine that somebody needs to legislate it out of existance. Things like that is what caused the civil war in the first place.

You may not want to admit it, but the Confederacy is still alive and well.

Michael

Think about this:
Blacks in the service of the federal government were paid less, ill-equipped, treated worse, were sent into battles that their white counterparts either didn't want any part of or were unable to take. Lincoln himself said that if he paid the black soldier the same wages as whites, there would be massive rioting!

Now this:
Black soldiers serving the confederacy were treated as EQUALS. They ate, slept, drank, fought and died together with their white comrades and even attained rank. They were paid the same and were equipped the same and when they were wounded they were treated in the same field hospitals as whites and when they died, they were buried with their white compatriots. Sure this was required to gain their freedom, but when you take into account how 99% of the blacks up north were treated, they were, by far, treated better.
Was/is slavery right: No

Point is, the CW was fought over states rights PERIOD! Lincoln made the conflagration a slavery issue late into the war with the Emancipation Proclamation. The Stars and Bars IS the true flag of the Confederacy, not the battle flag of the army of northern Virginia. It is what WE have made the battle flag represent that is repulsive. It, in itself and it's true beginnings, not repulsive. Remember what Pickett said at Gettysburg: For our wives, our children, our farms, our plantations, our way of life, for old Virginia!
(by the way I'm a CW re-enactor, N-SSA/CWSA member and portray a Union cavalryman from the 2nd NYS cavalry). My hats off to Dixie! Hussah!

to destroy or to simply put in a place for no one to see, a symbol of history is nothing more than an attempt to change history itself.

the reasons that people have to fly this banner should be irrelevant, given the natural laws of free will.

countless, gut-wrenching attrocities have been committed under the AMERICAN flag, slavery being one of them. since i decide to live under it, therefore die for it, i am willing to own-up to its past and make it my own.

perhaps all of america should take responsibility for our collective past, instead of trying to constantly "sugar coat" it until our history conforms with the currently held, PC world-view.

people who would hide this or any flag, relic, place, photo, painting or book away hoping that this act alone will solve the underlying issues, will be leading this nation down a dangerous path.

Whoa! As a resident of GA myself, I'm well versed in both sides of argumentation for/against the "flag" & I can tell you that this board is pretty much a direct reflection of it all.  With very few exceptions, the majority of those who would see the "rebel X" disappear forever are those of African_American descent who (& forgive me for saying this) probably couldn't even tell you who the Secretary of State is.  What does one have to do w/ the other you ask?  One word - ignorance.  Not that I'm name claaing, it merely just means a lack of information.  It's only been made an issue because it's been kept that way by those who can only see hate & oppression instead of history.  Those truly intellectual & educated folks out there who have posted your replies here are neither right or wrong.  Be passionate about our nation's history, but let it be the whole nation, & not an isolated battle flag that sparks a debate whenever dicussed; as it makes you no better than the uninformed.  As said before, I have but one flag flying 24/7/365 at my home, & it is neither the old or new GA state flag.  Let it go, people, we have bigger issues to focus our attention on.  Our 2nd. Amendment rights are merely a few politicians & a few more short years away...

Well the topic "Confederate Flag and Slavery" makes me ask which flag are we talking about first. If its the ever popular Battle Flag I believe it never flew in Richmond Virginia at the Capital. The Battle Flag was just that it was the battle flag of the Virginian Army under Lee I believe. There were many flags in the Confederacy. The national flag was change several times and each state had their own. As for the Battle flag (stars and bars) with connection to slavery in the war is crazy. Since the war the Battle Flag has been used by racist groups such as the KKK. Why they use it is still a mystery to me. Of course because the KKK uses they have tarnished the true history of the flag. The KKK are nothing but toads hiding behind hoods and a flag in which they have in my opinion show disrespect for the fallen soldiers of the south. I have to say also I believe the Civil War was mainly fought about states rights. Do you honestly believe that all those soldiers in the south would have fought for slavery when most of them did not own them. Slavery also at that time was coming to an end. Less slaver were being sent to the United State shortly before the Civil War. France and England had already abolished Slavery I believe. Slavery in Western Europe and its Colonies was ending during that period shortly before the Civil War. I believe if you are going to condemn the Battle Flag you also have to condemn the Stars and Stripes and all the states flags before the Civil War that slavery was legal. Don't blame a flag because some evil men like those in the KKK hide behind it like as if they are real men. The flag in its true meaning is about heritage and history not slavery.

No Slack!

Spider- You make some good points and I admire your viewpoint. However, I am not going to allow someone to take something from me just because "they" don't like it. There are lots of things I don't like, but I don't complain and raise nine kinds of hell about it. If "they" hate this flag so much because it stands for oppression and slavery and brutality and all of the other nonsensical BS that they claim it stands for then what will "they" do if I decide to paint it on my car and drive around town? Ill give you three guesses what would happen. My car would get keyed, windows broken etc, and in some places someone would probably try to mug me, kick my ass and who knows what else. Am I supposed to just bow down to someones wishes because they don't like something? Not in this lifetime.

As I said before, I completely respect your position, but thats just not me. I stand up for myself and what is mine and Ill do the same on this issue. I'd put 10-1 odds that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton couldn't rip this thing out of my hands if they tag teamed me.

Michael

I totally agree w/ you.  The whole issue used to enrage me, as laziness/ignorance is the norm of our society; but I came to realize that there are so many battles being fought therein that you have to pick them carefully.  As the squeaky wheel gets the lube, & ignorance & laziness is the majority of the sheeple out there, the logical flow of events is how it normally is w/ these kind of issues.  That being said, you're fighting a losing battle.  I completely understand your fortitude, & I have not merely laid down to die myself, I'm just presently sick to death of debating this one out w/ those around me.  I'm outnumbered & have gone down fighting.  They (our elected officials) have already decided (without my input) to change my state flag.  What do I do?  I've already written all of the appropriate letters & updated my list of who not to vote for, but will it truly change anything?  Maybe that's the wrong attitude, but I'd rather spend my energy hanging onto my weapons than screaming at the top of my lungs concerning what is now deemed to be "old news" here at home.

Everyone debating this issue should take the time to go back up a few post from this one and read fattym4's post on the subject. That is the most intelligent thing I have read or heard on the subject....and it is coming from a Yankee.
Sir, my hat is off to you.

Can I get an Amen!

Amen!

OK, I CANNOT let that one pass.

Let me ask WHY do you think slavery when you see the Confderate flag?? You ADMIT that it wasn't created for that reason.

lets do a comparison - handguns weren't MADE to do drive by shootings. Do you think "drive by shooting" whenever you see a handgun??

Ski masks were NOT made for bank robberies. Do you think "bank robbery" whenever you see a ski mask??

Should we out law handguns or ski masks because people USE THEM FOR ACTIVITIES FOR WHICH THEY WERE ******NEVER***** INTENDED??????

I will tell you WHY you think slavery when you see the Confederate battle flag - because that God-free hell hole called teh public school CONDITIONED / BRAINWASHED you into thinking that. And the media has reinforced that brainwashing.

If you can think "slavery" when you see teh Confederate Battle Flag, when you ADMIT it was NOT created for that purpose, I GOTTA believe you are NOT FAR from believing handguns were created for drive by shootings. You CANNOT be far from becoming an ANTI.

Steven Halbrook's excellent book "That Every Man be Armed" (which is not per se a book on the civil war, but does devote a good bit of the book to discussing the 2nd ammendment in the period just before and since the civil war)
points out that by the end of the war the following factions existed:

1) Southern Secessionist who advocated slavery.
2) Southern Secessionist Abolitionists.
3) Southern Unionist Abolitionists.
4) Southern Unionist who advocated Slavery.
5) Northern Abolitionist
6) Northerners who advocated slavery.

He also points out that historically, the KKK was the militant arm of the Democratic Party, and much of their early violence was aimed at southern republicans, in addition the racially motivated violence that we tend to think of (both targeted at black people, and whites who had dealings with black people of which they didn't approve.)

fattym4, I applaud your post!

garandman, what you have said is what I was trying to make in my post, I thank you for reinforcing it.

spider, are you just a resident of GA or are you a Georgian (born here)?

BMB

Couldn't have said it better myself, Gunslinger.
                       [8D]

There seems to be a question as to why some people associate the confederate flag with slavery and racism.  This picture is straight from the Klans web page.  as a matter of fact you can buy the T shirt if you like it.  Anyway, this might be why people such as myself associate the confederate flag with racism.

[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1719012&a=13212962&p=50613815[/img]

This is true what is said above. But a few jack-asses take something that means to stand up in what you belive in and make it a raciest symboled. Like the swastika it was for thousands of years in Japan know as a good luck symbol and the Natives of this country used a backward swastikas and that meant peace. Another thing I don't see people getting all pissed off when they see a Black Panther flag and the Black X flag and in the school I was in the taught us that the Black Panthers Melcom-X where all peace loving people. I found out this was not true by one of my friend how was black and wanted to follow in the foot steps of Melcom-X and Black Panthers. Now this just goes back to the same thing over and over the person who cry's the loudest is the one that is heard. Just want people to know I'm not for the KKK or anything like that I know a lot of Black Americans also Hispanic Americans ,oriental Americans and they call them selves this if you do also then you are an American and it don't matter what color your skin is where all brothers and we all love the country we are in and willing to die for it.