I'm curious about how you would have handled the Jenna Bush situation if you had been on the call.

Short story: Bar manager calls 911 to report use of a fake ID. You arrive; things migrate out to the parking lot, and the bar manager is insisting that you cite. You've got three options: no cite, cite for minor in possession, or cite for using false ID (in Texas the last option is somewhat more serious.)

In the middle of these discussions a reporter shows up.

Personally, I think the cops in question showed good judgement and some diplomacy; they attempted to persuade the manager to let it go, she refused, then when the press showed up and things went to heck they cited for MIP. I'm wondering how you would have handled it.

I would have radio'd for a boss/patrol supervisor (Sgt. or higher) to respond to the scene.  If none was available, I probably would have handled it almost the same way.  

Depends on how long the officer has been on the road, and if he can be influenced by "the name". When I was a young deputy 20 ish years ago I came upon a superior court judge passed out on a railroad track. Then I took him home and hoped for the best. What I got was a dressing down for not dealing with him. Maintained the advise I got ever since.

Cite her and let her accept the responsibility. Pretty stupid, Hi I look like the Prez's daughter, see my fake idea.
We all drank underage, she is in college. But get real , my father was a machinist, but I didn't try to get served where I would be recognized as his son.

I would have charged them both with the most serious offense that would apply. Not because of the media attention, not because of the manager and not because of who they are. I would do it because it is my job. I swore an oath to uphold the law and perform my duties to the best of my ability.

I would have spanked her...spanked her good.

Assuming you've decided to charge her with something, would you pick the MIP (citation) or the false ID (usually an arrest in TX.) Why?

What would you have done if this had been a manager and a customer who were also having "issues" over a common boyfriend? The manager saw someone underage she hated, and called 911 to get her in trouble? No reporters to worry about...:-)

I would have cited both girls for MIP and criminal stupidity, then I would have "Rodney Kinged" the manager that used an emergency # to call on underage drinkers. I am not a cop, I run a bar/restaurant and I always deal with fake IDs like a regular person. If Icatch you and you're cool I keep it. If I catch you and you are a Jackass, I keep it and call the supervisor on duty ( we know a lot of Cops in our town) and he can tell you what a jackass you are.

She should have done what most people do.  Get someone else to buy for her.

I would try for a bribe then would hush it up.

Does this also mean that you would nail any one of us for having something like say, a LEO/Military 30 round mag in possesion? Or perhaps a collapsable stock on a post ban?


Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

That's a hard question to answer since I was not there.  I hate writing MIP's myself because I run into those every week.  Come on we know MIP is against the law but it sure isn't something we have never done.  That's where I like that "discretion" I have.  

I would have taken the manager aside and quietly and politely explain to her that something like this might cause me to start "looking" at the bar very closely in the future. I would explain it in such a manner that she would understand that it may in her and the bars best interest not to make too much noise over it.
I'd then give the little Bush a stern ass chewing, take the ID and send her on her way.
None of this because she is the presidents daughter. This is what I would do in this situation regardless of who it was.
I took an oath to.....but it was not to act as a babysitter or a bar doorman.

"Uh, Sarge? You busy???"...

That's how I'd really do it. You are compelled to act in some manner. After all, the server (I thimk) called. -Your hand is then forced.

Personal views aside (I'll only allude to the fact that Europe has very liberal drinking-age laws), I would act within the scope of the law, my departmental policies, and a code of ethics. (end quote)

[puke]

P3[pyro][^]

Yes. If it were a violation of state law or city ordinance where I work. I'm not a Federal officer and have no jurisdction in Federal crimes. There is no equivelant law in my city or state laws that I am aware of. Whats your point Aviator? You still got a chapped booty from my other responses? or do you think I owe you some special consideration?

No and no, Just curious. You just seem like a letter of the law type guy.


Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Just a little background on me... I am a D.A.R.E. Instructor in Texas.  I would have cited with MIP, it doesn't matter who it is and if she would have been driving I would have hemmed her up for that too.  Alot of people get away with stuff because of who they are... it shouldn't be that way.[smash]

I don't see myself as a Judge Dread or Robo Cop or some crime fightin crusader. I give the people a full days work for a full days pay. They should expect nothing less. Sure I'm jaded and cynical it comes with the job but I don't take it personally. I would have rung up the Bush daughters or anyone else in that circumstance with the max because it will get pled down by the prosecutor. If the majority of the people feel a law is a bad law then they can work to change the law. Then I will enforce the new law. That's what they pay me for. Incidentally I've been around long enough to know why laws are written on paper and not etched in stone. Every one in the system interprets the law how they want to see it. The Judges, the police the prosecutors and the defense attorneys. Whoever wins is right. That's just the way it is. I don't live the job it is just a J.O.B.. But I do my job in such a way that I don't have to apologize to anyone for the way I do it. One other thing I always tell the new officers, be fair, firm and compassionate. Enough about me and the job.

Since it was my shift that cited her,  I'll chime in on this. No one calls 911 for "False ID" in Austin. It's a college town. Just about the entire area owes it's existence to underage drinking.  On a slow night there must be 10,000 MIP's in the entertainment district. Do I cite them? Not usually. Just taking the ID costs them the 100$ or so they paid for it, If they're a jerk I do arrest them instead.  You see, the fine is pretty small, mostly around 50$, and since it goes on daddy's credit card anyway, it's no big deal, even elevates your status among your fellow students. A lot of kids will get 1-2 a month. However, no one I've ever arrested has had to be stopped again.  Something about sitting in a holding cell next to a 300 pound barfing wino with lice tends to get the point across. I will however cite the bar owner. The charge is "Supplying alcohol to a minor." I think we should charge the manager in this instance too, since Jenna Bush was not the only person there that was under age, and everyone else involved was served alcohol. As an aside, Chuy's business has fallen through the floor, the owner's have issued 3 apologies to date, the manager is in hiding from the death threats, and is being moved to another resturant in the chain with a different name. If this stupid twit doesn't end up costing the owners a couple of million $$$, i'd be very suprised.  

Seems that everybody screwed up royally.

1) Jenna should buy the alcohol in a 7-11 somewhere where the clerk wouldn't reconize Bush himself. In addition, less chance of getting caught. Don't try to drink in a bar. Get the liquor and get the hell to somewhere safe.

2) The secret service didn't step in. They could have prevented the whole problem entirely.

3) The manager is obviously a moron and an asshole. He should be fined for misusin 911. The whole incident is ridiculous. Take the damned I.D. and kick her ass out. What kind of an idiot demands that the police charge the President's daughter with a crime. The guy is obviously a Democrat

4) The cop should have cited her for possession and told the manager in politer terms to take it and put it where the sun don't shine.

Personally, I believe that the 21 law is unconstitutional for many of the same reasons as gun bans.

A) States Rights: The age was enforced via threats against the states, who were the only ones who could legally set the age. Highway Funds were used to threaten the states.

B) Legal Age of Consent: 18 is the legal age of consent in most states. If they can set the minimum age to drink above the age of consent then what next. Well, Florida has already set the handgun age at 21. I hear tell that 'Assault Weapons' are next. Where will it stop. Will we all end up like Oklahoma and set the age for everything at 23. Or will the government keep setting it higher and higher until nobody can legally own a gun or drink. This is the first step in revoking the constitution. If we can set arbitrary ages to enjoy constitutional protections, then why not 50 for Free Speech, 60 for Freedom of Religion and 40 not to be illegaly searched. Now that disgusts you right. Then why should we say 21 or 23. What makes these  different from 50 to speak freely. We give the liberals some room and the drinking age will soon be 25, then 27, then 30, then 35. Where will it stop. The same can be said with guns. What next 21, 23, 25, 27, 30, 35, 40, 50, 55, 65, 70. Where will it stop.

AAAAAAAGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHH...who cares anymore.  The manager is a dumbass idiot.  I'm an LEO and find it amusing when we have rookie officers that get dispatched to the juvenile parties and it never fails...they always call out on the radio with actors on the ground because all 50 of the kiddies, except for a few, are running over fences and crap to get away.  Who cares about the MIP...I will almost never write MIP's anymore unless they are giving me problems or some special circumstance.  

Uncle Buck...I'm curious about something?  Do you hammer everyone for everything?

Uncle Buck,

This isn't intended as a flame but I do have a couple of questions for you.

1) You say you swore to uphold the law.  The constitution is the SUPREME law of the land.  Would you or do you uphold laws that are unconstitutional?

2) Federal crimes.  If you happened upon someone violating a FEDERAL law but not a state/city law, would you "bust" them?

I suspect after 8 years of Clinton/Gore that the secret service personnel are used to "looking the other way" regarding the illegal activities of those they are sworn to protect.  

Thanks for the update, johninaustin.

What was the story on the manager, anyway? Was she just incredibly clueless, or was she out to "get" the Bushes?

Uncle Buck...I'm curious about something?  Do you hammer everyone for everything?[/quote]

No. I'm human like everyone else. I simply set a standard for myself that I try to live up to. As far as observations go, I don't stop everyone for every violation I see. One of those standards is that if I believe it is worth my while to make a stop then it is worth my time to pinch. Like most people I don't always live up to those standards and I don't always take my own advice. I suppose that's the compassionate part of being fair, firm and compassionate. I try to treat people the way that I would want/expect to be treated if I were in the same situation. If I am wrong I expect to be held accountable and I expect to be entitled to due process. I try to treat victims the way that I would want a family member to be treated. There isn't enough time or space to go into the intricacies of what motivates a cop or why he does his job the way he does. I think these post should be short and sweet, but that often leaves to many questions for difficult topics. If I'm judging them by my standards then I see some lazy, worthless, good for nothing cops out there, not a lot but some. But that's over simplifying and a little unfair. Everyone has their own style that goes into their work. You develop that style through how you were raised and your personal experiences on the job. I hold a supervisory/leadership position in my department. I don't believe in taking myself too seriously but I do believe in taking my job seriously. Perhaps I come off as kind of an asshole on the cop bashing threads. What can I say. I'm proud of my job and I like cops. If you called for service and I showed up I doubt that you would be disappointed with the service I provided. If I stopped you and pinched you, you may not leave happy but will will leave with your dignity intact and you would have been pinched by a professional.

I'm not feeling flamed but this is getting tedious. Here is my answers.

1) If a law is "unconstitutional" then it is not a law. constitutionality is determined by the Supreme Court of The United States not by individuals. Therefore your answer is no.

2)I have the same obligation to report a federal crime as any other citizen. Failure to report a crime is a crime. Then by law we are all obligated to report crimes that we know are violations of federal law. All citizens have the power of arrest in a felony situation as most federal crimes are felonies then I could/should arrest. So your answer is; it depends on the crime being committed.  

You know...

I really think I would have made her call her parents.

I would have DEFINATELY let him know that I was having a "come to Jesus" meeting with her, and that I would treat her fairly and could he send me an autograph...

oh well,

Ronnie

Plain and simple boys.  Issue a citation for MIP, and forward it to CID to see if they want to peruse it further.  I'm just a street cop, I don't get paid enough to piss of the prez