*Venting*

If what I see on the TV, read about, and hear about from my European friends is true, Europe for the most part is in a heap o trouble socialy-wise.

The Execution of Tim McVeigh has opened my eyes to the immense amount of ignorance displayed by these serfs in England, France, Spain, etc.  The European Union only admits countries that have abolished the death penalty, and most all leaders of any stature there (Tony Blair...) are extremists when it comes to guns, rights to self defense, and the Environment.

In England, it is illegal to defend yourself in any situation.  Why are these poor peasants telling ME, a free (I seem [i]DAMN[/i] free when I compare myself to them) American what I should appreciate?  

Then to top it off, Bush is touring this socialist paradise soon.  The CNN "Eurpean" reporter in London says European leaders will urge the US into "the 'now'", so we can join all up to date, [i]democratic[/i] gov'ts.  Funny, last time I checked, we were a Republic.  I guess that doesn't matter anymore.

Well, seems that the Ruby Ridge inhabitants and the people who died in Waco also lived in a "free" land. Why do you have to wait for months and get your finger prints checked and pay a 200$ tax for a Class 3 suppressor which anyone aroun here can buy from a store directly since they are permit free. Our government allows us simple things like: bayonet mounts, flash hiders and magazines over 10 rounds. As time passes i am not worried about our government but looking at the state the U.S is going with restriction after another.

You are just the person I wanted to reply.  Yes, you are right.  We need to pay 200 bucks for a machine gun fee.  We need permits, etc, in certain places.

There is another side of that coin, though.  In America, in almost every corner of the country, any citizen can walk into a gun shop, with no silly "license" or "permit to collect" (like you have) AND BUY A GUN, Then and there.  In most states, it is a matter of a few minutes (if all systems work okay), and you have a new handgun, rifle, shotgun, whatever makes your day.  That is what makes us more free than any other country.  I could go on and on about our other original rights, but that's another thread.

In my original post, I was mostly talking about the ultra-liberal countries.  You know 'em.  England, France, blah blah blah.  I don't think Finland, Switzerland, etc, has a problem with these freaks....YET.

You are right about Ruby Ridge and Waco.  These people should have been left alone.  I highly doubt your country's gov't works flawlessly all the time, and never over-impedes it's boundries.  This is why we need to unite (as gun owners, freedom lovers, and so on) and fight oppressive government everywhere.  That's what 'ol Tom Jefferson wanted.

Supressors were a last minute tack on to the NFA after the top game warden squawked about them being used to poach game.  I have read that supressors are used in your country at ranges, so as to not disturb the peace in heavily inhabited areas.  I also read that there was an attempt to regulate them, but it was stopped.  If so, GOOD!
We here in the U.S., some of us, are also very concerned with the ever increasing intrusion of government.  Some of us, but not enough.  Being a close neighbor to the former USSR, your country and the Swiss kept active militias.  (Correct me if I'm wrong)  Here in the States we have regulated militias to the fringe, and many now are.  Unfortunately, we have forgotten what this country initially stood for.
Your other neighbors in Europe, do they have the same view of gun ownership as your country?  I think not.  Much of Europe has almost regulated firearms out of private hands, except for wealthy collectors.  Powder sales are limited to a kilo, or reloading is prohibited, in some countries.
Even air rifles are regulated in some places as to maximum fps allowed.
The E.C.U. is also implementing member wide, standard gun laws, from what I have heard.  Could be bad news, if your country is a member.

Thanks for the reply Stubbs.

But would it be too easy to accuire a weapon, not too familiar with all the laws there, waiting periods for some weapons and etc..
can you fill me in a little.

I do not see it as a bad thing to have a "reason" to own a weapon, might be one thing that has kept the number of crimes committed with weapons around here low. Crimes are committed usually with stolen weapons and such here. Since you have gotten your permit for your weapon, and face yourself in a situation in which you have the right to defend yourself, family, you will not be sentenced for it. This is positive progress, some years ago it was a big no no to defend ones life with a firearm.

That's good news.  I'm glad your country is making progress.

As for this "being too easy to aquire a weapon"...oooh, I believe you just struck a chord with me (not a bad chord, just the reciting of history chord).

The Second Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights, the document my forefathers died for, and something I would readily die for now, states that  any US citizen has the inherent right to bear arms.  This "shall not be infringed."  

The only "reason" one needs to own a gun is in his own mind.  No "reason" needs to be given to anyone.  Not The gov't, the police, ANYONE.  The purpose of this great right is to give the citizens of the US, the owners of this country, control over government.  Government has a tendency to get big and fat after awhile, and a well armed populace can easily take care of this.

This right went uninfringed for a good while, until an Evil man named Franklin Roosevelt made the "new deal" in 1934, which basically gave the gov't power over things it has NO business controlling (personal finances, the free market, and, yes, our right to bear arms.)

Over the past 70 years since then, the gov't has been slowly trying to convince the populace here that some "evil" guns need to be regulated...and the gov't can "take care of us".  Awwww, how nice.

The result:  we face a tyranical gov't.  Seriously.  Tom Jefferson, Sam Adams, the people we idolize over here would have started an uprising many moons ago if they were still here.  The US has grown fat and lazy though , and as David M stated, we have forgotten our purpose.

Thus, we now have infringments on our inherent rights.  Backround checks, registration, and all the other bullshit.

BUT, the US is still the most armed county, by far.  There are still a lot of freedom fighters here that haven't forgotten.

When you say it may be too easy to get a gun, that reason has given us a low crime rate.  Yes, the US has a lower crime rate than England, Australia, and South Africa; contries that have experienced first hand how big gov't can be recently.  

I think that may cover you for awhile.

Americans look at Europe in the way the see their own nation. Europe is not(as of yet [;)]) a nation. It's a bunch of countries bordering together. Everyone with it's own soveignty.

The UK, France an Germany always had the biggest mouth and the loudest voice. But you tell me, can you look at Blair and not laugh. See I cant, and thank God I dont live in the UK.

Now with the Euro being forced down out throats, the open borders etc etc. Things will start to go downhill. The European countries with the money pay for the admittance of former Warshaw pact countries to get in the EU. Costs which will be turned on the individual citizen trough taxes.

Before all, I am a Dutchman and a proud one at that. The fact that the Netherlands lie in the continental Europe is just a geographical fact as far as I am concerned.

Weaponslegislation wise, yes I do need a permit to own what I own right now. But to the contrary of my former fellow UK shooters, I am not the target of a bunch of actors/feel good do nothing Aholes.

So why is Europe predominantly socialist-democrat is due to the historic events that took place about 200 years ago when most countries either by revolution(the French) or by industrial revolution(rise of the communist labour orgs) in Britain took control of the powers that be.

To a certain extent this has been the case in the Netherlands too, but since our monarchie are vivid hunters and shooters......well you see the picture.

But please dont toss us all in one heap, I know most Europeans do so with you Americans for the same reason. Ignorance is dangerous.

Kuiper

Actually, the U.K. has a higher rate burgalry than the U.S. does overall, about 1.5 times as high.
Many of those Scandinavian countries have a mostly homogenous population.  No one feels left out.  In the U.S., our history of racism fuels much of our violent crime.  Many blacks feel as if no matter what they do, their voice is not heard.  Most urban areas in the U.S. are riots, just waiting to happen.  As to why 10% (I think it's 12%) are illiterate?  Ask modern, [b]liberal[/b] educators that question, why do they pass illiterate students up to the next grade?  Why, to maintain self esteem in the student, of course.  Also, why the high rate of poverty?  See above.

EU leftists are bigger fascists than Massachussetts liberals.  

GunLvr

Excuse me, but are you blind?  I said,  "England has a higher crime rate than the US".  What the *hell* does Scandanavia have to do with England?  I KNOW that Scandinavia is peaceful, and that most Dutch countries are too.  I KNOW that these small, [i]very sparsley populated countries[/i] are relatively crime-free.  The fact is, Australia and the UK do have more crimes per 100,000 people than the US.  Read the damn numbers sometime.

No, I haven't spent much time in England...but 1/2 of my family is European, and most still live there.  I have more knowledge about it than most everyday Americans.

And as Kuiper eluded to...when Europe becomes one country, which will happen soon enough, then I think Europe will begin a fast downhill fall.

And as a final note, people who are bigger socialists than our own in Massachusetts are not my friends.

Socialist Pussies.

I hope Major Murphy that you are not chucking all Europeans, especially us as socialists.
Our situation still is rather good, but who knows what the future will bring, but at the current time the U.S is the place were things starting to get more and more tougher for gun owners.

More power to you, but if this U.N. "bill"  gets approved, things may start to change quickly.

I apologize if I was unclear.
I am referring to European leaders, not the people.
I love the continent, love the people.
Hate socialism, and how it crushes the entrepreneurial spirit.

The Europeans leaders are just a bunch of whinners.  They think they are cool just because they are bunch of green liberials.  I say to them: "FUCK YOU!  USA ROCKS!"

Well, this just the attitude some U.S people have. No other countries exist outside the US OF A. They can do whatever they like, wherever.

Then after seeing some Jay Walking Episodes, they can´t even figure out simple questions relating to U.S common things, that even a European knows :)

Hey, don't paint us with such a broad brush. [:D].  Don't let moronic comments represent me.  


You liberal whore.

YOU BASTARDS [img]http://www.ar15.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_smile_big.gif[/img]

Losing sucks, as most of Europe knows first hand thanks to the USA.  We're well hated as are most successful organizations/people.  They have their opinions (as allowed by their dictators), and we all know what opinions are like.

Eddie

 How many European nations would even tolerate a militia movement such as in the US?  Not many.
 Having said that, I fine that most Europeans seem to have an attitude of superiority(sp?) toward the US and US citizens.  Dubya is looked down on in Europe because he has only visited the continent once as an adult, he is seen as a Texas cowboy that likes the death penalty, etc.  Two points:  1. Dubya is not the president of Europe, he is the POTUS.  2. Any heterogenous society like ours has a class of people who feel themselves disenfranchised.  This 'underclass' has developed a culture of non-achievement, so the they don't succeed.  I personally don't care what the average European thinks, I don't want socialism, I want liberty!  I personally would rather die fighting socialism, than live in a socialist nation.  We have the God-given, Constitutionally guaranteed right to the means of self defense, including defense against OUR OWN GOVERNMENT!  Socialism only works in a homogenous, conformist society, which the US is not.  RANT OFF

Tuukka
If there is one given, one constant in the entire Universe, besides [b]C[/b], it's that the media here in America have an uncanny knack for picking the biggest, stupidest, most ignorant, clueless moron out of the crowd, for an interview.

Anyone remember those Scandanavian biker wars, a few years back?

They were using friggin' anti-tank rockets against each other.

Pretty damned cool.

It was a Danish biker gang, if I remember correctly.

As for the Europeans ragging on Bush, it's no secret that they'd much prefer Al Gore to be our president.  That opinion alone tells me they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

Like it was stated before, we elected an American president.  A great deal of Americans find Al Gore to be an absolutely repellent human being.  A tattletale wiener.  A compulsive liar.  A complete phoney.  A terrible and pedantic bore.  Power-driven professional politician. A strong believer in that more government interference in our lives is better.  These qualities might be valued in Europe, but they're totally repugnant to the folks in flyover country, the average bumpkin American that Europeans love to hate.  So screw you, Europe and your pitiful superiority complex.  We don't give a fuck what you think about us.

Yeah that makes me mad that those people can be som clueless of simple geography and US history. It's stuff 4th graders should know, but I wonder how many people got it right that they don't show, or if people purposely say dumb things to get on tv or possibly even for money. Maybe leno and those other guys pay those people, who knows.

I agree with whomever said that Europe is jealous of the US. In the past century, we have had the save the asses of the Europeans twice, and I think that that is responsible for much of the resentment for the US. I think that they hate us for being the richest and most powerful nation on earth. Personally, I would rather live in the "violent" US than some socialist European country where big government will "protect" me.

Its not that I hate Europe or the people there, its just their attitude toward this country that disgusts me. European countires have some great history and some great things about them, but with the way most of them are going now I think its only a matter of time before everything there turns to shit.

Also, as far as the US being violent, lets not forget the Brits were there ones that came up with the -dragging, drawing, half hanging, and quatering style of execution (as seen in "Braveheart"). How dare they call the US uncivilized. Also, lets not forget that the US hasn't really started any major wars for a century. It was the Europeans that started WWI and WWII by the way.

We jealous, why would i be jealous to people who pay 20 000 dollars for FA weapons we get for around 600-2000$ [img]http://www.ar15.com/forums/images/smiles/icon_smile_big.gif[/img]

I i were an American i would have voted for Dubbya in the elections. So much for the political debate here.

Since we are in the EU, there is bound to be pressure from other EU members that since the gun laws are so tight elsewhere, why can the Finns have what we can´t have. Have to see what the future brings.

The biker gang thing is a problem here also, the worst part was a few years ago, relating to the strikes by rival gangs in Scandinavia. An Swedish AT-4 was fired at a building here also. They have calmed down somewhat in the years after that.

After the cold war, the US became the only superpower.  I think the EU is an attempt to create a new superpower.  What bothers me most about the EU, is that they want the US to be like them.  They want us to pay $5 a gallon for gas, be unable to defend ourselves, have government medical, coddle our criminals, etc.  Can't they just leave us alone?

Exactley!!  America was founded to be the exact opposite of Europe.  Luckily, this attitude has not died out totally.

Why can't the just leave us alone?  Case in point:  a French group is launching an effort to stop the [i]AMERICAN[/i] death penalty.  Why the f*ck do they think they can interfere like that?

And Tuukka;  sure, you may have it better with the FA situation...but with any other type of gun, we got you beat seven ways to Sunday.[:)]

Hi,

Simple fact is; We need the US and the US needs Europe.

Tradewise & defensewise.

Working for the largest US firm (as a Dutchman) I can say that we all cooperate just fine (in the company) and understand/accept cultural differences. Most of the time there are more similarities than differences.

And we don't necessarily have to see eye to eye on everything, that would be boring!

'Can't we all just get along?'

.....Now lets all hold hands and sing 'We are the World'.....!

Cheers,
RG.nl

I read a terrific article on what we're all talking about here today.  Very good points, very well written, very funny.

[b]"Ignored employees, disgruntled children, college students, and all sorts of people close to decision-makers but without the ability to actually make important decisions often find it easy to second-guess and pound the table.


Sometimes these outsiders have something interesting to say, to be sure. But sometimes they're just whiners and complainers. They think if only they were calling the shots … well, cats and dogs would get along, all puppies would have good homes and pizza would never burn the roof of your mouth. Indeed, they are so sure of what should be and can be done that they assume those who do otherwise must be corrupt, or stupid or evil for doing otherwise.

The beauty of the English language is that it has a word for such people. We call them "the Europeans."

Okay, that's a bit misleading. Most Europeans are honest, well-adjusted, and decent people. But when we're speaking the language of international politics "the Europeans" doesn't refer to these people. "The Europeans" refers to a vast continental horde of bureaucrats, journalists, literati, and activists whose mental fecal impaction is so profound that they cannot grasp — decades after the fact — that they are now the backseat drivers of history." [/b] [:D]

[url]http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg061301.shtml[/url]

I am for freedom, that is, in one own home everyone can do whatever want. Right?
So I am glad that, beyond the basic fact that everyone belongs to the Human Race, there are differences that make this world interesting.

Unless someone, since HIS/HER way of life is good for them, thinks should be good for EVERYBODY. And this, sorry, for me sounds UNACCEPTABLE.

Regarding McVeigh, I read something about it, and I made my search in the Internet about Waco.
He was guilty, and should be punished. About the death penalty I judge it completely a way to punish people completely barbarian and inadequate. But, and this is my personal point of view, I have serious doubts about the job of the abolitionists.
I explain why.
Everytime there is a execution in the USA, there's always a crowd of abolitionists-leftists (most of them former communists) in front of the US embassy in Rome. And this can be even considered OK. But I NEVER HEARD that everytime there is an execution in China or Iran or Afghanistan there is the same crowd. Seems that death penalty is not bad the same around the world. If we make a total of the execution in China, we can see that US and the rest of the world should execute for TWO or THREE years to reach the Chinese.
Maybe is this so because EU is heavily involved in business with China?

I can understand MR. STUBBS, when he stated that EU shouldn't put its nose in the US affairs, and even agree with him... unfortunately I would like this kind of respect to be mutual...


BTW... enyone can tell me a good explaining book/link about the federal representative system of the USA?

I think Bush has a healthy attitude.  The competition will benefit both continents.  

From what I have read, the Eurpoeans have been somewhat disrespectfuly towards Mr. Bush on his trip.  I can uderstand why that happens.  We are devouring them culturally and doimating them economically, and they do not like it.  When I was living over there they did not seem to realize to what extent this was true, but maybe it is finally sinking in.