I really think this whole "preban" thing is hype.

I can honestly say that I don't miss/need any of those features.  I do think flash suppressors look cool, but no better then muzzle brakes or fakes ones.

Flash suppressors and thread barrels don't add anything at the range or hunting and they hurt accuracy, so I'm told. Preban - 0  Postban - 1

Bayonette lugs, who wants a freaking knife on their gun anyway?  It would only hinder you at the range.  Preban - 0  Postban - 2

Telescoping stocks are not needed either, if anything longer stocks should be used.  These super short guns are harder to shoot and uncomfortable.  They don't help you at all at the range.
Preban - 0  Postban - 3

So why pay MORE, for a less accurate, front heavy,uncomfortably short gun?  For when the SHTF?  Just buy a preban upper because if the SHTF the ATF won't be checking your serial numbers and you will have a brand new barrel ready to go.

AND, I don't know about you but I would rather have 2 brand new guns when the SHTF then one used one.

When you cut through all the BS, all you are buying is a $500 -$700 flash suppressor and when was the last time you shot at night?  I can honestly say never.  I can't think of any good reason to buy a preban.

So, what's your point?  

-Troy

PS- A2 stocks are way too long for most people!

[%(]

CAR stocks are handy when space is an issue.
And no I don't mean outer-space either.

My friend has a young one and he loves my CAR stock in the closed position and fits him like a glove.

Pre-ban are tops in my book for resale value too. If I ever sale one.

All this is from someone who can't afford a preban.  Sounds like jealousy.  Hell I have more than 2 prebans and 2 postbans.  Why not have both?

There may come a time when you wish you had a flash hider.  Fire a postban at night and then fire a preban.  Hell of a difference.  Not only does it affect your night vision less, but it makes you less noticeable to someone you may not want to notice you.  If you are using a night vision scope, you must have a flash hider for the sake of your scope.

As for the bayonet lug, it is just part of the package.  I don't intend to let them get that close and if they do, out comes the .45.

The telescoping buttstock really makes for a nice little compact carbine.  Again, there could be a time when that would come in handy.

Why do you feel you had to start this?  Just like stirring up crap?

Sounds like a case of "preban envy" to me.

[;)]

Disagree.  They help you keep your night vision while shooting in low llight.



Disagree again. I didn't buy the gun to JUST use at the range.  Telestock makes it easier to transport and more versatile in general.



You're assuming a SHTF scenario which involves either a complete breakdown of the government or fighting them.  Neither is as likely as a temporary emergency, such as rioting or a hurricane or earthquake with the concomittant looters.  In such a scenario, if you have to defend yourself, the government would indeed be checking your serial numbers and having the right ones could be the difference between being patted on the back for legitimate self defense or being put in jail for violating the 94 Omnibus Crime Bill.



A couple years ago. Used to do it all the time though.  And you left off the handy telestock.
Your argument is weak.

To tell you the truth if the Assault ban is overturned in 2004 than everyone who owns a preban gets screwed.ou could have had 2 rifles for the price you paid for one and if the ban is dropped you can have all the goodies.I've owned both and to tell you the truth my post bans shot every bit as good as my pre-bans.I now only own 1 pre-ban colt but I wont ever buy another pre-ban,total waste of money if you ask me.It seems to me the younger guys are the ones who feel pre-ban is a "Must have",for those of us who were buying rifles before 1994 or even 1986 it really isn't that big a deal.

Well, not all of us only use our ARs at the range. Some of us use them for practical purposes where the preban features actually do help. For example, I use a 14.5" M4 copy for short range wild boar hunting. These features come in extremely handy for me.

Most of my boar hunting is done at night. The permanently attached Vortex cuts flash down drastically, allowing me to keep my night vision. Compared to my post ban 20" Colt HBar which at night spits out a fireball about 2' long and as big around as a basketball this is a huge difference. The Vortex makes it look like a firecracker went off in the barrel, just some small sparks that are barely noticable. Plus, how do you screw a suppressor on without threads? Have you ever shoot a rifle with a suppressor? Its very nice.

Preban 1 - Postban 0

Bayonet lugs come in very handy and I normally affix one when Im out in the thick brush. Have you ever been rushed by a pack of wild boars? Didn't think so.

Preban 2 - Postban 0

Having the stock collapsed when walking through think woods with the rifle slung makes it a lot easier to not get snagged on limbs, vines etc.

Preban 3- Postban 0


I take full advantage of all the evil accessories but if all I was planning on doing was taking it to the range, it would be a waste. Although I would always rather have it and not need it, and you know the rest.

Those are a few good reasons I can think of.

Michael

If you are just going to take it to the range and use, you don't NEED them.  But some people like what they are trained to use, and some people just like PISSING off liberal, tree-hugging, gun-scared wussies.  When you collapse your stock and load a 30rdr and fix you bayonet, people get scared.  It is all appearance.
Ice

Well, nobody here is making you buy one. I personally am saving up for a pre ban to go with my post ban. I LIKE the evil features for all of the above stated reasons and more.

Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

OKAY, here we go again...
We hear from the PREBAN SAINTS who defend their purchases with--- you will be sorry when you need it and don't have it, or I paid the same as you, but your just too stupid to get good deals like us !!!
THEN-- we hear from LORD POSTBAN who says, you guys are are crazy to pay hundreds of dollars extra for cosmetics, or IF I had big bucks like some people I would buy one too...
SHUT UP ALREADY !!!!
Buy what you like and want and let others do the same!!!
With so many options available, HOW CAN ANY ONE BE WRONG !!!
PREBAN guy, don't flaunt it in POSTBAN guy's face and vice versa
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG????
well I'm off my soapbox now
51 out....
[heavy]

Live in PRNJ, and it's a moot issue.

 That just proves what a fucked up law it is...

I bought both of my preban shorty's before the big inflation in price. And I'm sure glad I did. I will never sell them.
My next AR will be a post ban target rifle.

It sounds like pre-ban envy to me, too.

Geoff, I could go ahead and refute all of your points tell you how a smart shopper or someone who is willing to wait can still find great deals on pre-bans, but you know what disturbs me most about your attitude? It is exactly the conditioned response the government hopes for. So what if you don't want or need a flash suppressor, bayonet lug, or collapsible stock on your range queen. Why are you so complacent about it being mandated that those of us who do want them are either denied them or must pay a little extra to get them? You know what, in 15-20 years it will probably be your kids arguing about why anyone would want to pay so much for a semi-automatic rifle that accepts detachable magazines when a bolt action is so much more affordable and does most of what a semi-auto can. Do you get it yet or do you just not care?

If you don't want or can't afford a pre-ban, then don't get one. Why is that so difficult? I don't think anyone else here really gives a crap. Are you that insecure? I don't have a problem with post ban rifles. I happen own one, soon to be two, post ban guns myself. But whenever I come across a pre-ban Colt for the same or maybe $100-$200 more, why shouldn't I go ahead scoop it up? Isn't the freedom to do what you want with the gun worth that measly amount of money?

Butkus, when was the last time you saw a thread of this nature started by one of us so-called "PREBAN SAINTS"?  

Why pay extra for a preban?  Simple.....

Because the snibbling ass gun hating liberal sheeple hate them.  That's good enough for me!

[sniper]

I sold all my prebans before the ban when I got married.  I started buying rifles again a few years back when it was OK with the wife, now I have two of my all time favorite rifles.  Enjoy my two prebans.

[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~kevinpaul/_uimages/twoparaextend.jpg[/img]
[img]http://home.earthlink.net/~kevinpaul/_uimages/twoparafolded.jpg[/img]

Folding stocks are the shit!

the only reason i own a bre-ban is because a long time ago, in galaxy just south of here, someone said "ban them".

I guess you will never be in a situation where your flash will give you away. epecially if all you shoot is at a range. Ever been attacked by a coyotee and needed a bayonet? Guess not you are the wus man. And I could take you on with an old muzzleloader
[sniper]

Yeah, and why would anyone buy a Porsche? Why would anyone pay so much money for a fancy sportscar that can do 150mph when the speed limit is 65?

To each his own.

Personally I like the telestock - saves space where necessary- in the safe, car, gun cases, etc.

Ponyboy hit on this too, but without threads on the barrel, you can't attach a sound supressor (silencer).  Oh yeah, but who needs a sound supressor, right?

If you're using NV gear, you want either a flash or sound supressor.  Oh yeah, I forgot. Nobody needs NV either.

Of course, with a threaded barrel, you can change the muzzle device to whatever the situation demands - brake, flash supressor, sound supressor, BFA, etc.

Bayo lug?  Well I never use it, but I like having it because it pisses off liberals.  Of course, who needs to piss off the liberals.  we should all just accept what they want - they're reasonable people, right?

BOOMER, I know ,point taken....
I happen to be both a preban saint and a lord postban combined(just got my first preban)
just trying to show how fighting over this is silly.
I happen to agree with your observations.
51 out....

Good enough for me too.

Makes them quiver in their panties at the sight of one.

It's only $$$$.  

I think it was 3 weeks ago[:D]
[img]http://albums.photopoint.com/j/view?u=1681131&a=12897055&p=48316270&f=0[/img]

Affording a preban is without a doubt not the issue, hell in the last two months I bought the LEGP, a Glock 19 with 2 preban mags, and a SAR2, and over 3,000 rounds.  You?

Because I CHOOSE not to buy one I obviously can't afford one?  What is that garbage.  Sounds like the argument of someone on shakey ground.

My point was not to just stir some shit up, but charging pigs, and attacking coyotes, give me a freaking break.  Talk about grasping at straws.  

CHUCK6419, thanks for the laughs.  I'll use my guns to SHOOT them thanks.

I can understand wanting a preban for collecting reasons, or wanting an original etc.

There are obviously no right or wrong answers but I almost got sucked into the "must have a preban" mentality.  When I really stepped back and thought about it it seemed so ridiculous.

Just think about the "average" AR15.  Colt stopped making bayonette lugs in 89' and most came with fixed stocks so the only "banned" feature was the flash suppressor.  For 99% of the world a muzzle break would be more useful.  So you paid $500-700 dollars for a screw on flash suppressor.  How many of you went out and added telescoping stocks AFTER they were banned?

Shaggy brought up the Class III features, but that doesn't apply to 99.9% of the population either.

Please don't take this as slam but a rational discussion.  Think of the AR15 you could get for $1,500.  You could get an accurate Les Baer, or an M4gery AND a Bull barrel upper etc.  It just seems so obvious to me and not to most people on this sight.

I didn't really see any strong arguments besides some good points about the flash suppressor.

Lets not forget that you can EASILY buy rounds with flash supressing powder like the SA stuff.

The hunting argument is weak since a Les Baer will out shoot a preban anyday of the weak.

And i'm sorry but if GIs could lug M1s around and I can carry my Browning Auto 5 12 guage through thick brush you can carry a non telescoping AR without blinking an eye.  If the brush was that thick YOU couldn't get through it.

Even the low light argument is weak since most game can only be hunted from sunup to sunset.  Hell many States won't even let you hunt with ANY AR.

Stabbing charging boars makes me chuckle everytime I read it.  Has anyone ACTUALLY done that?  I doubt it.  If you can stab them you can shoot them, and I know you are carrying a knife and pistol too.

For Boomer and the other members who bring up the current gun laws and government your points are well taken but at this point it is just pissing in the wind and not the world we are living in.  Would I vote to repeal the laws?  Yes.  Am I forced to make a decision about what to buy now?  Yes.  

Please remember I'm not trying to piss you off but it really seems like the "cool thing" to do and not the best value.

I'm willing to bet that if I were able to scrutinize all of your purchasing decisions, I would find many that were not based on sheer value.

BTW, before the LEGP, the last AR I purchased was a pre-ban Colt Sporter Lightweight 7.62x39 for $900 back in November. Factor in the carrying handle necessary to actually shoot the LEGP, and I got a like new pre-ban Colt with a flash suppressor and the option to have a collapsible stock and bayonet lug for less than an extra $150. Sounds like value to me.

A 65 Corvette sold for $3500 in 1965.  
In 2001, a slighly used one goes for $35,000.  

There are cars that handle much better, get better gas mileage, are safer and have less maintenance problems.

But... to some people, there's nothing like the original.

And yes... I remember in the early 80's at a gun show in So. Fla, passing up on a new rifle called the Colt SP-1 because I couldn't afford the $285 they wanted for it.

Thank You Boomer!

That is my WHOLE point.

I, like at least 99% of the people in this world don't shoot at night AND don't want a tiny stock.

So it wouldn't be worth .50$ extra because they won't be used and add zero benefit.

And factor in that your rifle is used and mine is brand new, LE, grip, includes extras and the LEGP is a far better buy.

xanadu,
I do see your point and can understand why some people would want to collect an original AR15.

Not in my book. The LEGP is a decent deal, but face it, it's pre-ban wannabe. Given your previous comments, why would you want that fakey, pointless crap anyhow? So you can have the "look" of a pre-ban? Now who's strictly for show? [:)]

I'm sorry, but $500-$700 just for the flash suppressor? Give me a break! Only if you're sold that Colt is the only AR worth having.
You can easily put together a pre-ban for under $1000 if you know how to shop and where to look.
Not that much more than a postban, so you're arguement about money is null and void.
Also, I've shot 1" groups with iron sights at 100 yards with preban uppers with flash suppressors.

Plenty accurate for me.  
If I want to get more accurate, I can always put a 24" free float upper on a preban lower.

I'm sorry, but $500-$700 just for the flash suppressor? Give me a break! Only if you're sold that Colt is the only AR worth having.
You can easily put together a pre-ban for under $1000 if you know how to shop and where to look.
Not that much more than a postban, so you're arguement about money is null and void.
Also, I've shot 1" groups with iron sights at 100 yards with preban uppers with flash suppressors.

Plenty accurate for me.  
If I want to get more accurate, I can always put a 24" free float upper on a preban lower.

They're worth it for the collector value alone.

Some people simply have the $$$ to buy whatever the hell they want to shoot, pre-bans included.

I have outfitted a pre-ban AR of mine with all the SOCOM bells and whistles, and I absolutely LOVE shooting it. I'm a military/history buff, and having the civilian version that is as close as humanly possible to a well equiped M4 was simply a fun project of mine.

And by the way, I do use all the stuff that I have equiped my M4 with.

Yup, you can outfit a post-ban, like the LEGP rifle, to similar specs if you desired. Hell, right out of the box they're nice. But for me, getting that M4 as close to the real deal as possible was worth the investment, and it makes me real happy having it as another AR option in my line up of vunder-weapons.

By the way, think of all the frivilous crap that people put on cars and trucks. That stuff costs BIG money. Some people own 800 mags, some have kids to support, or a wife. Whatever. I'm in a situation where I don't choose any of the above. My $$$ goes in to locating and buying the finest military weapons available. And again, it makes me VERY happy.[}:D]

Hoople, that is too cool! [%D]I don't need NV either, but I now have this urge!  


Why does anybody care what somebody else buys? That's what I love about these rifles.  The only one I have had envy oozing out of my pores was a real M4 at one of our FDCC shoots in Lake City.  I couldn't even bring myself to shoot it when offered, because I was afraid I'd get a woody on the firing line.  We have every make and model at our shoots, and nobody cares what you shoot.

I hope the ban is gone one day, and my rifles go down in value.  I didn't buy my pre-bans as f-ing investments.  I bought them because I wanted the various features a-Hole politicians said I shouldn't have!  That, and my 9 and 11 YO sons can shoot them easy with the collapsible stocks.  I've paid from about $900.00 to $1,895.00 for different pre-bans, including a pre-ban match rifle (with flash hider and Bayo Lug [%P]) and I don't regret one of the purchases.  My kids don't either.  I have a couple of Post-ban rifles, too.  That's what's so damned cool about them.  What other rifle can you configure so damned many ways, and easy at that?

Just don't give me a load of $hit because I choose to buy a pre-ban rifle.  You buy what you want, and so will the rest of us!
[moon]
-Troy
(The one in the great state of Florida)

I'll have to agree that the flash suppressor features are of very little merit.  They certainly don't justify the price difference.  The collaspsible stock however is a very usable feature.  It allows for stowing the weapon in a smaller space and makes it easier to take out of a patrol car quickly.

Come on down to Florida and I will hook you up with guys that hog-tie their wild boars, or carry knives and / or spears only!  They are nuts!

What it really comes down to is your personal preferences and what you want for your particular rifle.  What you tried to do in your opening post was to reinforce your post ban purchase decision by deriding the decision of others to buy pre-bans.  You had obviously struggled with your pre / post decision, and came up with the winning solution for yourself.  Your decision making process was your own, and you can live with your post ban rifle.  That's cool!  Just don't try and justify your decision by applying your process to mine.  

I didn't justify my decision to buy a pre ban vs a post ban rifle to my wife, now you want me to justify it to you? Yeh, OK.

Your only justification for buying a post ban was cost, so be it.  Just leave it at that.  We're all proud that you saved a couple of bucks.  How much more per round were you willing to pay for that Glock 19 with PRE_BAN Mags?  For a couple of rounds more than a post ban mag, probably not a great value, but it was something you wanted. Good for you.

It's all good to me.  It's not just a FS for me, it is having a threaded barrel.  I can add any dingus I want on the end of my barrel, including thread protector sleeve to look just like a post ban.  I can use a Vortex one day, try a KKF brake the next, then an A1 FS, A2 FS, Smith Brake, Phantom, fake Sound suppressor, the list goes on.  I can attach lights to my Bayo Lug, or even a Bipod adapter, or maybe just a bayonet to scare  my neighbors.  My 9 YO and I can shoot the same rifle standing with ease one after the other one, because we adjust the stock to fit us, exactly.

Frankly the value of my rifles is of little importance to me.  I buy them for the attributes I want, and according to the purposes I decide for them.  Lastly, there is nothing wrong with COOL! [8P]

BOOMER & 51: yep.

Geoff, you need to read "The Ideal AR15 Rifle" from the old site. Good info on the ideal tactical weapon for SHTF scenarios.

To each his own, I think everyone should have both!!

Good shooting!!!

i love my preban!
i got a nice new M7 bayonet the other day, and i'll tell you, the it makes persuading hostages much easier!  before, all i could do was crack them on the head with the buttstock, but that is not nearly as convincing as holding a bayonet to their back...  
[chainsaw]

I've tried to read all or most of the replies, so I'll throw in my 2 cents. I have a 6600 and a 6520 and I have a BM AK Shorty to shoot in IPSC matches. I bought the 6600 (Green Label HBAR) for about $500 new and I paid about 3x that for the 6520 NIB a few months ago. I bought the 6520 because od the colopasable stock and that is why. With the thin barrel and colopasable stock it is an impressive package, about 5 lbs and very short and easy to move about, which is why the government doesn't want us to have any more of them. The rifle will hold it's value, I have no false beliefs that the Assualt Wepon Ban will ever be lifted, so the rifle is like buying real estate, there are no more being made (for us to buy) so the price will always hold. The HBAR was bought for less than I paid for the Bushy. I shoot Bushy now to keep the miles off the pre-bans, to protect the investments. It is of no relevance if you like or don't like the pre-ban features, the value they have will hold. If you have the expendable income to invest in a pre-ban, then go for it, if not, there are post-bans that will do just as well at the range, which is all the government can stomach.

Bill

Happiness is a warn gun...
Bang bang, shoot shoot...

Affording a preban is without a doubt not the issue, hell in the last two months I bought yada, yada, yada...

>>So what? So you have the money to purchase a preban if you want, but you choose not to. That is all you had to say, bragging doesn't make your points any more valid.



charging pigs, and attacking coyotes, give me a freaking break.  Talk about grasping at straws.  

>>Ok armchair warrior.

Just think about the "average" AR15.  Colt stopped making bayonette lugs in 89'


>>So the average AR15 is now a Colt huh? Colt makes far less than the rest of the manufacturers combined. Therefore the "average" AR15 is not a Colt.


Shaggy brought up the Class III features, but that doesn't apply to 99.9% of the population either.

>>So explain to those of us who do, how in the hell you attach a suppressor without a threaded barrel?


Think of the AR15 you could get for $1,500.  You could get an accurate Les Baer,


>>Your perogative is clearly different from many people on this site. Personally, I would take a stock Bushmaster over a Les Baer. Hell, by the time you put some good optics on the L.B. along with other accessories I could buy a registered lightning link with the same cash. But then that would probably be stupid because you can do the same thing with your post ban Colt that I can do with my machinegun.

I didn't really see any strong arguments besides some good points about the flash suppressor.

>>Its hard to see things with a closed mind.

(Continued)

Lets not forget that you can EASILY buy rounds with flash supressing powder like the SA stuff.

>>This is the most idiotic statement you have made yet. Apparently you haven't shot much ammo with the flash suppression powder. Its like comparing oranges to tangerines. A little different, but not much.

The hunting argument is weak since a Les Baer will out shoot a preban anyday of the weak.

>>Yeah, but I don't hunt off of sandbags with optics. 1 moa doesn't mean a lot to me in the field. Nice try though.


Even the low light argument is weak since most game can only be hunted from sunup to sunset.  Hell many States won't even let you hunt with ANY AR.

>>You ain't from Texas are you? I can hunt pigs all night long with my AR and 30rd mags, then go deer hunting in the morning with my .22mag. Its not my fault you live in a nanny state.

Stabbing charging boars makes me chuckle everytime I read it.  Has anyone ACTUALLY done that?  I doubt it.

>>No, but my best friend kicked one once as they were running at him. Im sure if would have had a bayo on him Remington 700 he would have used it.

If you can stab them you can shoot them, and I know you are carrying a knife and pistol too.

>>I could, but I go hunting with friends that are usually a few feet away. I would rather gore a pig that is about to have me for lunch than shoot one of my friends by accident in the heat of the moment. Besides, by your thinking the military should get rid of bayonets also if they could just shoot the enemy instead.

>>You have never been boar hunting, so please don't speak with authority about something you obviously know nothing about. It makes you sound like an ass.

>>If you don't want to hear the reasons why some of us actually use the features that you don't need then don't ask. And if you ever want to see these features in real action jump in your little SUV and leave the suburbs and come on down here to Texas and Ill show you what its all about. Just bring some clothes you don't mind getting dirty and I hope you like beer.

Michael

I didn't want those grapes. They're probably sour anyway...

Why did the AR15.com guy get a pre-ban...?

Why does a dog lick his d!ck...?

(HINT---answer to both questions is the same)

Good one!! Aesop

moral: Its easy to despise what you cant have!

geoff: Maybe, but you got to admit they sure do look nice! nicer than a post ban. Anyway can so many people be wrong?