Learning about Rome and the Roman Army history

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Learning about Rome and the Roman Army history

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:29:59 PM EDT

I just started playing Rome Total War and I realized I know very little about Roman history.

Can someone recommend a basic book about this subject? Preferably about the Roman Army but with some general history thrown in. Written for someone with almost no knowledge. All my research has been after WWI.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:37:13 PM EDT

[#1]

I would recommend the Gallic Wars, by Julius Caesar. Written by someone who was there, embellished for political purposes - but a very good book.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:40:18 PM EDT

[#2]

It is fascinating just how advanced the Romans were in their age... and how barbaric and perverted they were as well.

And to think, it could have fallen because of plumbing...

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:42:03 PM EDT

[#3]

“The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon is the definitive work on the later history of the Roman Empire. There is a reason it has been in print for over 200 years. You can go to the bookstore or online to Amazon and buy a copy… or because it has been in print for so long there is no copyright you can download a public domain copy.

If you want the download go to Project Gutenberg catalog:

www.gutenberg.net/catalog

Do a search by author: Gibbon, Edward and you will find the book.

You can also download “Julius Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War” Project Gutenberg has it as well.

Do a search by author: Caesar, Julius

They have Tacitus’s historys as well…

Project Gutenberg is a hell of handy tool for the amateur historian or for someone interested in classic literature. If an important book is older that 75 years they likely will have it.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:43:12 PM EDT

[#4]

the Roman empire never fell... it just changed form...

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:46:10 PM EDT

[#5]

This isn't exactly a textbook, but I found "As the Romans Did" by Jo-Ann Shelton to be a fascinating book. It's filled with excerpts, quotes, writings, etc. from the Roman era -- even some translated graffiti -- that really help you understand their culture. Used it for a Roman history class and then sold it back to the store -- now I wish I'd kept it.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:47:29 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:
It is fascinating just how advanced the Romans were in their age... and how barbaric and perverted they were as well.

Here is hoping that a thousand years
hence, the same is not said of us.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:51:28 PM EDT

[#7]

"The Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Ceasar and "The Agricola and Germania" and "The Annals of Imperial Rome" by Tacitus are fascinating reads.

It can be a little hard to read stuff written by actual Romans at the time, but the FEEL you get by reading the accounts of people who were ACTUALLY THERE is without compare. Reading Julius Caesar's own account is fantastic! Plus, these are some of the only written accounts of parts of Germany and France from that entire timeperiod, and are fascinating from a historical perspective.

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:54:08 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
"The Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Ceasar and "The Agricola and Germania" and "The Annals of Imperial Rome" by Tacitus are fascinating reads.

It can be a little hard to read stuff written by actual Romans at the time, but the FEEL you get by reading the accounts of people who were ACTUALLY THERE is without compare. Reading Julius Caesar's own account is fantastic! Plus, these are some of the only written accounts of parts of Germany and France from that entire timeperiod, and are fascinating from a historical perspective.

I am not familiar with "The Farmer and Germany" ... what is it about?

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:56:51 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
"The Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Ceasar and "The Agricola and Germania" and "The Annals of Imperial Rome" by Tacitus are fascinating reads.

It can be a little hard to read stuff written by actual Romans at the time, but the FEEL you get by reading the accounts of people who were ACTUALLY THERE is without compare. Reading Julius Caesar's own account is fantastic! Plus, these are some of the only written accounts of parts of Germany and France from that entire timeperiod, and are fascinating from a historical perspective.

+1

Posted: 10/30/2004 12:58:16 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:
Quoted:
"The Conquest of Gaul" by Julius Ceasar and "The Agricola and Germania" and "The Annals of Imperial Rome" by Tacitus are fascinating reads.

It can be a little hard to read stuff written by actual Romans at the time, but the FEEL you get by reading the accounts of people who were ACTUALLY THERE is without compare. Reading Julius Caesar's own account is fantastic! Plus, these are some of the only written accounts of parts of Germany and France from that entire timeperiod, and are fascinating from a historical perspective.

I am not familiar with "The Farmer and Germany" ... what is it about?

The Agricola is the first written detailed account of the British Isles - in Tacitus's description of his father-in-law's governship of Roman Britain.

The Germania is a description of the German tribes, and their customs and lives.

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:06:56 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Quoted:
It is fascinating just how advanced the Romans were in their age... and how barbaric and perverted they were as well.

Here is hoping that a thousand years
hence, the same is not said of us.

we sure seem to be headed that way unfortunately

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:11:06 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:
I just started playing Rome Total War and I realized I know very little about Roman history.

Can someone recommend a basic book about this subject? Preferably about the Roman Army but with some general history thrown in. Written for someone with almost no knowledge. All my research has been after WWI.

By the way how is the game? I loved the previous 2 Total War games they put out.

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:18:33 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:
Quoted:
I just started playing Rome Total War and I realized I know very little about Roman history.

Can someone recommend a basic book about this subject? Preferably about the Roman Army but with some general history thrown in. Written for someone with almost no knowledge. All my research has been after WWI.

By the way how is the game? I loved the previous 2 Total War games they put.

Very cool. If you have a fast computer it looks incredible. They use this game for the graphics in Decisive Battles on the History Channel.

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:21:13 PM EDT

[#14]

Rome Total War is a bit different. It takes a bit to get into it. I hated it at first because its totally different from the previous games. The campaign map is totally different and takes some getting used to. Managing your armies is a bit more complicated since you can't move an army anywhere in the world in 1 turn by sea. That really didn't make sense in the other games, but you have to get used to it. I find my turns take a hell of a lot longer than the other game. You really need to think of what you will need way ahead of the time. The battle map is a bit different too. The units move a hell of a lot faster it seems. All of the javelins really cause hell for me. I find my guys rape each other with friendly fire. I really wish the AI had a sanity check. If I am an archer/javelin guy do I really want to shoot through my own men? I am the Brutii and I am throwing down. I am just wiping up the Egyptians and I am currently at war with all of Rome. I almost control all of Italy and now I need to kick them out of Africa.

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:39:58 PM EDT

[#15]

Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve. Sound familiar? Recommend you get an encyclopedia like the Britannica and read it for an afternoon. Then reread it and think about what it has to say. That will give you the basis for additional study. Trying to read the great Roman historians like Tacitus, Agustine and Gibbons will only waste your time as they present a slice of the issue or more than you can absorb and you need a macro approach first. Good luck.

Posted: 10/30/2004 1:50:58 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve. Sound familiar? Recommend you get an encyclopedia like the Britannica and read it for an afternoon. Then reread it and think about what it has to say. That will give you the basis for additional study. Trying to read the great Roman historians like Tacitus, Agustine and Gibbons will only waste your time as they present a slice of the issue or more than you can absorb and you need a macro approach first. Good luck.

my first +1!

Posted: 10/30/2004 2:09:10 PM EDT

[#17]

Graham Webster's "Roman Imperial Army of the First and Second Centuries". Very very informative, somewhat lacking in cites.

Le Bohec's "Imperial Roman Army" is also good.

I have heard good things about Goldworthy's "The Complete Roman Army" but have not read it yet.

Posted: 10/30/2004 3:27:09 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
This isn't exactly a textbook, but I found "As the Romans Did" by Jo-Ann Shelton to be a fascinating book. It's filled with excerpts, quotes, writings, etc. from the Roman era -- even some translated graffiti -- that really help you understand their culture. Used it for a Roman history class and then sold it back to the store -- now I wish I'd kept it.

I saw a program on Discovery Channel(?) a few years ago with some lady who studied the Romans. About all I remember was she related even the Romans flew "the bird" aka "the finger." Their name for it was "Digitus Impudus" or however it would be spelled in Latin. The Impudent Finger.

Was this the same ladyand maybe book?

I like learning stuff like this. Usually it's called trivia.

Posted: 10/30/2004 5:08:33 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:
I would recommend the Gallic Wars, by Julius Caesar. Written by someone who was there, embellished for political purposes - but a very good book.

Ditto

Posted: 10/30/2004 7:29:07 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
I would recommend the Gallic Wars, by Julius Caesar. Written by someone who was there, embellished for political purposes - but a very good book.

+1 This is a great book. Amazing how someone 2,000 years ago could write such a readable book.

GunLvr

Posted: 10/30/2004 9:11:45 PM EDT

[#21]

If you really get the bug, visit Rome, and as much of the rest of Italy as possible, you won't be sorry. Italian women are very beautiful, if you need more encouragement than the history (Ciao bella, come ti chiami?)

Posted: 10/31/2004 5:17:03 AM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:
Quoted:
It is fascinating just how advanced the Romans were in their age... and how barbaric and perverted they were as well.

And to think, it could have fallen because of plumbing...

Here is hoping that a thousand years
hence, the same is not said of us.

Some of the things I send down my plumbing could cause the downfall of a major civilization.

Posted: 10/31/2004 6:55:28 AM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
“The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire” by Edward Gibbon is the definitive work on the later history of the Roman Empire. There is a reason it has been in print for over 200 years. You can go to the bookstore or online to Amazon and buy a copy… or because it has been in print for so long there is no copyright you can download a public domain copy.

If you want the download go to Project Gutenberg catalog:

www.gutenberg.net/catalog

Do a search by author: Gibbon, Edward and you will find the book.

You can also download “Julius Caesar's Commentaries on the Gallic War” Project Gutenberg has it as well.

Do a search by author: Caesar, Julius

They have Tacitus’s historys as well…

Project Gutenberg is a hell of handy tool for the amateur historian or for someone interested in classic literature. If an important book is older that 75 years they likely will have it.

Gibbons work is a crock of shit. Stay away from it at all costs. It is TOTALLY wrong.

Read anything by Peter Conolly or Adrian Goldsworthy.

Or for a even quicker read, go get some Osprey Books.

Posted: 10/31/2004 7:38:31 AM EDT

[#24]

Tag

Posted: 10/31/2004 8:11:17 AM EDT

[#25]

If you need a quick source go here Roman Army Talk

Posted: 10/31/2004 8:41:20 AM EDT

[#26]

Hehe welcome to the club... I've learned far more ancient history playing Shogun Total War and Rome Total War than I ever did in school.

If you want some RTW discussion, head over to www.twcenter.net, there are plenty of history buffs there too. Also check out the "Total Realism" mod that reconfigures the game to be more historically accurate (and slows down unit movement).

Friendly fire is not so bad, you just have to plan for it. Always keep archers and spear-throwers separated from your other units by a good margin, and never fire into a melee, only at isolated enemy units.

Posted: 10/31/2004 8:45:49 AM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve.

Unlikely. The Roman Empire was degenerate and corrupt almost from day one, but it still lasted hundreds of years.
There are myriad reasons why Rome fell in the West, but the simplest and most accurate answer to that question was that the empire lacked a means for peaceful succession. Every time an emporer died, it launched a civil war for the succession. Troops were pulled from the borderlands and NEVER replaced. The outer provinces were weakened by these troop pullouts and fell to the barbarians. Rome began to be encircled, and, militarily weakened as it was by constant civil war, it was ripe for the picking.

Posted: 10/31/2004 9:05:02 AM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve.

Unlikely. The Roman Empire was degenerate and corrupt almost from day one, but it still lasted hundreds of years.
There are myriad reasons why Rome fell in the West, but the simplest and most accurate answer to that question was that the empire lacked a means for peaceful succession. Every time an emporer died, it launched a civil war for the succession. Troops were pulled from the borderlands and NEVER replaced. The outer provinces were weakened by these troop pullouts and fell to the barbarians. Rome began to be encircled, and, militarily weakened as it was by constant civil war, it was ripe for the picking.

That doesn't even cut it as a sole reason, because the Eastern half of the Empire survived for another 1000 years with the SAME lack of a confirmed means of succession. Clearly though it contributed.

Posted: 10/31/2004 9:13:05 AM EDT

[#29]

The time period simulated in this game is the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. The game covers 260BC-14AD I think.

Posted: 10/31/2004 9:16:06 AM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
The time period simulated in this game is the Roman Republic, not the Roman Empire. The game covers 260BC-14AD I think.

First Punic War to Caesar- the part of Roman history when it was the MOST like US

This game sounds interesting, how is the game play?

Posted: 10/31/2004 9:23:08 AM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve.

Unlikely. The Roman Empire was degenerate and corrupt almost from day one, but it still lasted hundreds of years.
There are myriad reasons why Rome fell in the West, but the simplest and most accurate answer to that question was that the empire lacked a means for peaceful succession. Every time an emporer died, it launched a civil war for the succession. Troops were pulled from the borderlands and NEVER replaced. The outer provinces were weakened by these troop pullouts and fell to the barbarians. Rome began to be encircled, and, militarily weakened as it was by constant civil war, it was ripe for the picking.

That doesn't even cut it as a sole reason, because the Eastern half of the Empire survived for another 1000 years with the SAME lack of a confirmed means of succession. Clearly though it contributed.

In the east, the lack of clear succession was moderated by the fact that the western empire was always more of a trade empire---there was less power in the hands of the emporer and more in the hands of the merchant class. Though eventually, Byzantium saw the same fate as Rome: it was encircled, isolated and then taken.

Edited to correct EAST instead of WEST.

Posted: 10/31/2004 9:40:05 AM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just how much do you want to know? Western Roman history goes back to 500BC and ends in 476 AD. The Eastern Empire continued until 1453 AD. Why the Western empire fell has been considered one of the central questions in World History. Every historian since the third century has proposed a position on the how and why Rome fell. As of late some historians think the fall was a result of the Roman people not believing in their government that became corrupt, morally degenerate, and far removed from the people it was created to serve.

Unlikely. The Roman Empire was degenerate and corrupt almost from day one, but it still lasted hundreds of years.
There are myriad reasons why Rome fell in the West, but the simplest and most accurate answer to that question was that the empire lacked a means for peaceful succession. Every time an emporer died, it launched a civil war for the succession. Troops were pulled from the borderlands and NEVER replaced. The outer provinces were weakened by these troop pullouts and fell to the barbarians. Rome began to be encircled, and, militarily weakened as it was by constant civil war, it was ripe for the picking.

That doesn't even cut it as a sole reason, because the Eastern half of the Empire survived for another 1000 years with the SAME lack of a confirmed means of succession. Clearly though it contributed.

In the west, the lack of clear succession was moderated by the fact that the western empire was always more of a trade empire---there was less power in the hands of the emporer and more in the hands of the merchant class. Though eventually, Byzantium saw the same fate as Rome: it was encircled, isolated and then taken.

Only after the Fourth Crusade. For 800 years it survived and for 600 of those it actually expanded.

I am not sure that Rome, as big as it had become, could ever have solved the problem of succession with the communications limitations it had. While the postal system was as good as anything until modern times, it was still a couple weeks each way to send a letter to either the Mesopotamian frontier or Britain, both ends needed powerful Armies, even if there were rules for succession there was nothing to keep the comanders in Britain or Asia Minor from ignoring them.

Western Rome's last straw was the loss of North Africa and Egypt to the Visigoths, and the disasterous failure of the combined East/West reconquest attempt of 464 that bankrupted Byzantium and cost the Western Roman Army its last trained regiments

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Learning about Rome and the Roman Army history

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