hope this ain't a dupe.
from yahoo

Powell's China Comments Anger Taiwanese

Tue Oct 26,12:51 PM ET

By WILLIAM FOREMAN, Associated Press Writer

TAIPEI, Taiwan - Secretary of State Colin Powell (news - web sites) has angered Taiwanese officials and lawmakers by making unusually strong comments denying that the island is an independent nation and suggesting Taiwan should unify with China.


AP Photo

 

Washington usually avoids weighing in on the touchy split, which arose when Mao Zedong's communist army won control of the Chinese mainland in 1949 and anti-communist forces took refuge on Taiwan.


But Powell waded into the unification question Monday in interviews with CNN and Hong Kong-based Phoenix Television during a one-day visit to China.


According to a State Department transcript, Powell told Phoenix: "There is only one China. Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy."


That was a departure from the U.S. government's longtime "one China policy," a purposely fuzzy approach that merely "acknowledges" people on both sides of the Taiwan Strait agree there is one China. Washington also insists differences should be settled peacefully and in recent years has emphasized that the Taiwanese people should have a say in the matter.


Taiwan is highly sensitive to any kind of language — especially from Washington — that might suggest their democratic island is part of the communist mainland. Taiwanese view China's government to be repressive and have spent decades resisting rule by Beijing, which occasionally threatens to use force to bring the island under its sway.


Rebuking Powell without mentioning him by name, Taiwanese President Chen Shui-bian told visiting former South Korean President Kim Young-sam on Tuesday that the island is a separate nation.


"Taiwan is absolutely a sovereign, independent nation. It's a great nation, and it absolutely does not belong to the People's Republic of China. That is the present situation, that is the reality," Chen said.


Using the island's official name, Republic of China, Chen said no country had the right to tell Taiwan it isn't independent.


"Other countries, whether they have official diplomatic relations with our country or not, have no way of influencing or deny the present situation and the fact that the Republic of China or Taiwan is a sovereign, independent nation," Chen said.


Taiwanese Premier Yu Shyi-kun made a terse response to Powell's comment. "Taiwan is a sovereign, independent nation. This is reality," Yu told reporters Tuesday.


Foreign Minister Mark Chen told lawmakers that Powell used "heavy language" that left "a deep impression" on Taiwan. He also complained Washington didn't warn Taiwan that Powell would depart from long-standing policy.


"They (America) hope that we'll try hard not to give them any surprises. They've really dropped an extremely big surprise on us," said Chen, adding that Taiwan had asked for explanations from U.S. officials in Washington and Taiwan.


Lawmakers with the ruling Democratic Progressive Party also complained.


"This kind of talk ignores reality. The Democratic Progressive Party's legislative caucus absolutely won't accept it," lawmaker Tsai Huang-liang said.


In an interview with CNN, Powell appeared to suggest Taiwan and China both favor unification. He said he didn't want to see either side "take unilateral action that would prejudice an eventual outcome, a reunification that all parties are seeking."


The Taiwan issue is extremely awkward for the United States. Washington doesn't want to appear to be forcing Taiwan to become part of the communist mainland. But the United States doesn't want Taiwan to provoke a war with China — a conflict that would likely involve U.S. forces.

Is this a change, or "firming," of
US policy? Or is this just an attempt
to pacify China until such time as
we have adequate forces to defend
Taiwan (after a drawdown from Iraq).

According to a State Department transcript, Powell told Phoenix: "There is only one China. Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy."

Then what is the purpose of the U.S. selling Taiwan all of those munitions???

It's called international politics/posturing/etc. Things get said that are not true. Or at least not true for TODAY. Right now is a "bad" time to start sh#t with China considering all of the pots on the stove and soon-to-be on the stove (Iran and N. Korea to name a few). Best to hold-off on dealing with Taiwan considering that it's far from a priority right now. So Powell (and the Administration) is trying to get them to lie low while we deal with more important matters, because if they come out swinging against the Chinese right now, they are going to be on their own...


Edited to add: ... Which means they will be OWN3D big time.

Tiawan will declare independence just for spite now. Then watch the fireworks.

The policy was to be vague.  Powell broke that policy deliberately.  Because he is an asshat.


Frankly, noone needed Powell to say that.  All it does is cause problems.  I must assume that statement was made in an atttempt by Powell to call attention to himself.


I support Taiwan.  China is aggressive, land grabbing, meddling, and represses over a billion people.

Quoted: Tiawan will declare independence just for spite now. Then watch the fireworks.

China probably doesn't have the resources right now to capture Taiwan without nuking it.  Taiwan is heavily armed with some serious technology at its disposal.

It wouldn't surprise me if Powell ran for president in 08' as a democrat, against hillery.

Now, that would be fireworks.  

US policy towards Taiwan has not changed - all Powell did is state it.

The Sec state does not make policy, or edit policy, or re-focus policy.  He implements it.

Why do so many of you recognize the BS in every gun control article in the media - but refuse to accept that the same BS is in EVERY story?

Taiwan would get overrun real fast.

China has too many troops.


CRC

Quoted: Taiwan would get overrun real fast. China has too many troops. CRC

Looked at a map lately - just how do a 'billion screaming Chinese' get across 120+ mi of open ocean?



China still has very little amphibious or airlift capacity. Worry when the start a massive C-17 or LHA -type program.

Quoted: US policy towards Taiwan has not changed - all Powell did is state it. The Sec state does not make policy, or edit policy, or re-focus policy.  He implements it. Why do so many of you recognize the BS in every gun control article in the media - but refuse to accept that the same BS is in EVERY story?

+1
alot of people here need to take some basic politics classes.

Quoted: Quoted: Taiwan would get overrun real fast. China has too many troops. CRC Looked at a map lately - just how do a 'billion screaming Chinese' get across 120+ mi of open ocean? www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/tw-map.gif China still has very little amphibious or airlift capacity. Worry when the start a massive C-17 or LHA -type program.

agreed. there is no invasion coming anytime in the near future, more than likely, china would use economic attacks.  as heavily as Taiwan is invested in the PRC, the chi-commies could crash the Taiwanese stock market with a flick of the wrist....

Time for a reality check. The wide majority of Taiwanese residents do not want independence from the mainland. The existing ROC govt in Taiwan used to be the govt of the Mainland before the Japanese invaded . They failed to defend the mainland and fled to Taiwan, usurping the existing local officials and killing many of them. The ROC govt are the main ones behind the "independence" posturing. A good percentage of the military doesn't even want independence, or an arms race for that matter.

Quoted: The existing ROC govt in Taiwan used to be the govt of the Mainland before the Japanese invaded . They failed to defend the mainland and fled to Taiwan, usurping the existing local officials and killing many of them. The ROC govt are the main ones behind the "independence" posturing.

uh, the ROC govt. of chang kai sheck fled to Taiwan after the communist revolution when they were defeated by Mao and his commies.

There is actually two distinct groups, politically in Taiwan.  One group is the original inhabitants of Taiwan and the group in charge.  The second group are the mainland Chinese who fled to Taiwan after the communist take over.  
In my opinion, the current presidant of Taiwan has no understanding of international politics.  He is pressing and boasting about how great he is and pushing for Taiwan independence.  The declaration of Taiwan independance will cause China to invade Taiwan for the sake of honor, which is the most important thing to them.  If Taiwan keeps quite then China can still say "one day we will be united".  The US can not back Taiwan right now due to our current military decision and that is what Powell is trying to tell the Taiwanese president but he is not getting it.  
China will crush Taiwan.  The Taiwanese army is a mandatory enlistment and many of the soldiers don't want to be there.  Taiwan is one of the major purchaser of American military equipment so they do have the best stuff.  But as we all know, equipment does not make the soldier.
China has changed much since the Tiaman Square Massacure.  The country is much more socialistic than before, though still very much a communist state.  China will be even more free as time goes on.  The people have pride to be Chinese again.  Many of the original Chinese citizens in Taiwan are doing busness in China and moving back.  They are being persecuted by the original Taiwanese and are fed up with the Presidents politics and policies.  
Sorry for being a little long but I think everyone needs to understand the dynamics over there.  The president of Taiwan needs to keep quite about independance, for now.  America can not protect them while the military situation being what it is.  That is what Powell is trying to say.  A declaration of Taiwan independence will lead to China invading Taiwan.  China will win that war.  America can defeat China but the cost will be too high.  

Doesn't surprise me, because the policy of recognizing the PRC was started by Bush Sr; Bush Jr doesn't want Daddy to look bad, so he will continue with that policy.

It's kind of ironic is that many of the factories in the PRC mainland are own by big/huge Taiwan based companies, food for thought.

Given the situation in North Korea, this is probably a bone to the Chinese to get them to intervene with Kim Jung Il.

Quoted:uh, the ROC govt. of chang kai sheck fled to Taiwan after the communist revolution when they were defeated by Mao and his commies.

Yes, you are correct in that the ROC govt 1st relocated very far inland before fleeing from the ChiComs. Well, in that sense the ROC failed the mainland Chinese twice - 1st with the Japanese, then with the Commies. 0-2 does not instill confidence

Quoted: The policy was to be vague.  Powell broke that policy deliberately.  Because he is an asshat. Frankly, noone needed Powell to say that.  All it does is cause problems.  I must assume that statement was made in an atttempt by Powell to call attention to himself. I support Taiwan.  China is aggressive, land grabbing, meddling, and represses over a billion people.

The US has steadfastly maintained its one China policy since Carter shafted Taiwan in '79...we've never been vague about that, despite what this article says.  Bush reiterated that policy earlier this year when one of the Chicoms was in town, in the big buildup to Taiwan's missile referendum.  Powell is just re-affirming that policy again, as we're about to ask the Chicoms to go to bat with the North Koreans again, and want to make sure our friends in Taipei don't rock the boat.  Whatever Powell says now, you can bet your ASS it's been vetted by the President.  

Even President Chen has been conciliatory towards the mainland...his 10/10 speech to the nation called for a restart of the bilateral talks with the mainland, among other things.  Incedentally, Powell publically patted Chen on the ass for that speech (the ass pat was metaphorical) AND called on the bandit mainlanders to get with the program and restart the talks.  They declined, of course, since they can now push the envelope a little since we're bent over a barrel re North Korea.

The problem we face is exactly what to do if/when the Chicoms make their move.  It's gonna be a real hard sell convincing the public that we need to put Americans in harm's way if it looks like Taiwan has brought it on themselves.  It's a pretty good bet the Chicoms will attack about 30 seconds after Taiwan mentions the "I" word formally.  It's morally and strategically right to help them, of course, but try convincing the American public of that.  

So, for the time being, it would be really good for all concerned if our freinds in Taiwan keep a low profile.  Only problem is, we pushed them to be democratic, and now that they are, we can't control them lol.  Polls show now that over half of the population there consider themselves Taiwanese, NOT Chinese, iirc.  That could be a problem.  


EDIT...there's no link, but the Bush statement I referenced above is mentioned...it happended in Dec, so I was off a couple of months in me recollection.  Chen's statement last year also provoked a shift in thinking by some key House members re Taiwan, like Henry Hyde, and the some important staff people.

here's the headline:  "Bush scolds Taiwan's leaders for threatening to declare independence from China," CBS Evening News, December 9, 2003".  

Quoted: Quoted: Taiwan would get overrun real fast. China has too many troops. CRC Looked at a map lately - just how do a 'billion screaming Chinese' get across 120+ mi of open ocean? www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/tw-map.gif China still has very little amphibious or airlift capacity. Worry when the start a massive C-17 or LHA -type program.

Swallows!! Laden, of course.  

The Chinese have warships. A good number of them. Plus subs, both fast attack and boomers. They could get across. Would it be pretty? probably not. All they need to do is get a foot hold using military ships in a decent port, then they can bring in anything they want. They could use a freakin cruise ship with several thousand soldiers onboard if need be.

By the way, they have about 40 amphibous ships,  60 warships, 50 diesel subs, 6 nuclear subs (one of which has the capability to hit the west coast with a nuke thanks to Klinton)  and about 350 smaller ships.

Quoted: Time for a reality check. The wide majority of Taiwanese residents do not want independence from the mainland. The existing ROC govt in Taiwan used to be the govt of the Mainland before the Japanese invaded . They failed to defend the mainland and fled to Taiwan, usurping the existing local officials and killing many of them. The ROC govt are the main ones behind the "independence" posturing. A good percentage of the military doesn't even want independence, or an arms race for that matter.

Time for a reality check, the vast majority of Taiwanese residents don't want to be subjugated by Beijing.  Over half the electorate voted for the current "pro-independence" (pro-reality) President here.

A good percentage of the military doesn't want to risk getting their asses shot off.  It's still a conscription-based army, just like the U.S. was during the Vietnam War.

Ease off of Powell... I'd rather have him President  than Cheney, even though I think Cheney is a good VP... I just think Powell is a solid leader, CiC, he's decisive, etc.

Quoted: Quoted: Time for a reality check. The wide majority of Taiwanese residents do not want independence from the mainland. The existing ROC govt in Taiwan used to be the govt of the Mainland before the Japanese invaded . They failed to defend the mainland and fled to Taiwan, usurping the existing local officials and killing many of them. The ROC govt are the main ones behind the "independence" posturing. A good percentage of the military doesn't even want independence, or an arms race for that matter. Time for a reality check, the vast majority of Taiwanese residents don't want to be subjugated by Beijing.  Over half the electorate voted for the current "pro-independence" (pro-reality) President here. A good percentage of the military doesn't want to risk getting their asses shot off.  It's still a conscription-based army, just like the U.S. was during the Vietnam War.

The Powell statement was a bitchslap against Chen Shui Bien, the President of Taiwan. Powell is trying to tell Chen, in no uncertain terms to STFU.

He has been making noise recently because his platform and party is all about Taiwan Independance.  Recentlly, he was reelected (Something about a staged false assasination attempt and the sympathy vote) and he has seized the opportunity to push for Taiwan Independance.

China has no qualms about invading Taiwan. They have more than enough resources to do so. HISTORICALLY, they DON'T for two reasons:

1. If China attack Taiwan, the US would jump in. China can defeat Taiwan easily, but is in no position to defeat the US, for now.

2. China is quickly winning the economic war against Taiwan. The Taiwanese who have $$ and power...ie, the economic movers, are already in Shianghai and Shenzeng. Drawn there by the cheap labor, special tax breaks for Taiwanese, and an overall more attractive business environment than Taiwan can afford. Oh, they still remain Taiwan Citizens, but they don't spend their $$ or add economic value to taiwan. China is the economic powerhouse and center of manufacturing because their economic policies allow them.

Watch your jobs...China is the next big worry. They are already THE offshore destination for manufacturing, They are expanding on that and no job is secure from offshoring.

One of China's next big targets, Pharmaceuticals.

My take is that Powell is off the reservation on this one.  

Remember in the second presidential debate when the audience member asked Bush what he thought he had done wrong as president.  

Bush stated that he regretted some of the appointments he had made.  

I firmly believe he meant Powell.  

Powell was a known ticket puncher in the Army and used affirmative action to get to where he is today.  

I have little respect for him and he is a liberal.  

Expect Bush to give him walking papers for term #2.  

China is in a bit of a situation at the moment.

They swallowed the cancer when they took HK in.  Economic liberalization did not help matters in that respect.  Think Falklands.  The new President over there is taking a risk, and going for the whole hog, but maybe the time isn't quite as right as he thinks.

The Neutral Observer's take on the whole situation, at least.  "May you live in interesting times."

Quoted: The Powell statement was a bitchslap against Chen Shui Bien, the President of Taiwan. Powell is trying to tell Chen, in no uncertain terms to STFU. He has been making noise recently because his platform and party is all about Taiwan Independance.  Recentlly, he was reelected (Something about a staged false assasination attempt and the sympathy vote) and he has seized the opportunity to push for Taiwan Independance.

Yeah, no shit, look at my location.  What do you think "TWN" stands for?

The assassination attempt on Chen was as real as they come.  The opposition started screaming "it was fake!" in the same way that Al Gore started screaming "a dimpled chad clearly shows that a voter intended to vote for me!"

The day that someone can "fake" an assassination attempt by firing multiple rounds from an estimated 20-30 feet away, at a moving target, from a low angle (gun was probably being held under a newspaper, jacket, or other item for concealment), and SHOOT TO WOUND is the day that monkeys fly out of your ass smoking cigars.

Quoted: According to a State Department transcript, Powell told Phoenix: "There is only one China. Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy." Then what is the purpose of the U.S. selling Taiwan all of those munitions???

I'll have to agree with that assessment.

Quoted: My take is that Powell is off the reservation on this one.   Remember in the second presidential debate when the audience member asked Bush what he thought he had done wrong as president.   Bush stated that he regretted some of the appointments he had made.   I firmly believe he meant Powell.   Powell was a known ticket puncher in the Army and used affirmative action to get to where he is today.   I have little respect for him and he is a liberal.   Expect Bush to give him walking papers for term #2.

You got Powell ALL wrong.

I don't know him personally, but I am just one degree of separation from him, and thus have heard a lot about him - and if he is anything - he's loyal.

That doesn't mean he may not get relieved - after all Rumsfeld and him clearly do not get along, one of them may have to go.

Quoted: Quoted: According to a State Department transcript, Powell told Phoenix: "There is only one China. Taiwan is not independent. It does not enjoy sovereignty as a nation, and that remains our policy, our firm policy." tinypic.com/ej03a Then what is the purpose of the U.S. selling Taiwan all of those munitions??? I'll have to agree with that assessment.

Our official diplomatic stance and the sometimes quite overt and seemingly contradictory military assistance to Taiwan are all part of the "game."

"The United States policy is one China " Bush said after a 40-minute Oval Office meeting with mainland Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao.

"We oppose any unilateral decision by either China or Taiwan to change the status quo," Bush told reporters, "and the comments and actions made by the leader of Taiwan" — referring to President Chen Shui-bian "indicate that he may be willing to make decisions unilaterally."

President Bush, December 9, 2003  

Tell me again how Powell is "off the reservation" on this one?  

This statement caused a big ruckus in Taipei, since the U.S. is usually not this critical of Taiwan in public, let alone by the Pres.  

The bottom line is that folks in the Admnistration and on the Hill...ever since '79, when the KMT was running things...have always know they could count on Taipei to be smart enough NOT to poke the chicomms in the eye over independence.  They have de facto independence, and as long as they STFU about REAL independence, life was groovy for everyone.  

Chen has continually baited the mainland while pandering to the pro indepencence portion of the electorate, which has been growing as the older generation steps aside.  This causes us a huge potential problem...are we ready, willing and able to take on the PRC over Taiwan with our resources already stretched thin in Iraq?  No one wants to find out...and there are some important people here in Washington who are kinda pissed at Taiwan over Chen's inability to STFU at this point in time.  This is the part that Chen just doesn't get...it's NOT like it was 20 years ago, when a tough U.S. response to any move by the mainland against Taiwan would be a slam dunk.  There is a perception now that the Chen administration cannot be trusted to be quiet when they need to...an unprecedented departure from the "good old days".  

71-Hour,
I don't want to start a flame war on the subject on the subject of the assassination attempt on Taiwan's president.  From the newspapers I read tells of an interesting story.  This newspaper is not the most reliable so if you can clarify and explain some questions I have I would appreciate it.
Why was the president riding in a civilian open vehicle in a middle of a crowd?  (Unarmoured jeep if I remember the picture correctly with no security barriers between him and the crownd)  No one heard the gunshots, but then again guns are banned in Taiwan.  The officer in charge of the security force recieved a promotion.  The gunshot wound left two holes in the president's abdomen but no internal damage.  Lastly, the military was not allowed to vote due to martial law being imposed.
I'm in the US and only get to hear half the story from the newspaper and stories from family still in Taiwan.  I would like to hear the other side.  Thank you.

I also want to mention I am impressed with the depth of knowledge on the political situation in China and Taiwan on this board.  Most of my friends have no idea what is going on over there.  I try to warn them that China is the next major threat but they don't seem to understand why.

What a stupid remark by someone who some here would have as president.  

He is selling the Taiwanese out.  They know it.

He probably has stock in Walmart.

Quoted: Quoted: Taiwan would get overrun real fast. China has too many troops. CRC Looked at a map lately - just how do a 'billion screaming Chinese' get across 120+ mi of open ocean? www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/maps/tw-map.gif China still has very little amphibious or airlift capacity. Worry when the start a massive C-17 or LHA -type program.

The same way ants cross water...



-LS

Quoted: Why was the president riding in a civilian open vehicle in a middle of a crowd?  (Unarmoured jeep if I remember the picture correctly with no security barriers between him and the crownd)  No one heard the gunshots, but then again guns are banned in Taiwan.  The officer in charge of the security force recieved a promotion.  The gunshot wound left two holes in the president's abdomen but no internal damage.  Lastly, the military was not allowed to vote due to martial law being imposed.

Chen and Lu were in an open-topped Jeep because they were campaigning.  It was in the middle of Chen's home district, if I recall correctly.  Taiwan apparently didn't learn the lessons of Dallas;  besides, with firearms banned here, as you note, they just don't seem to consider them as serious risks here.  Also, the reason nobody noticed the gunshots is that firecrackers are a big thing here at political rallies;  the gunshots got lost in the noise of exploding firecrackers.  Stupid, but there it is.

The gun used is believed to have been a homemade (no rifling? not sure how they guessed that) pistol in .32ACP or similar.  I've heard (unreliable second-hand accounts) that the residue on the recovered bullets was from firework powder, not smokeless gunpowder, which would lend support to "homemade gun, amateur assassin" theories.

The military was in fact allowed to vote.  Some military personnel missed voting due to being recalled to their bases, but only about 2,000, not the 20,000+ that the KMT claimed.

Lu was wounded in the knee by a bullet that had already lost most of its energy from having gone through the windshield of the Jeep.  Chen was hit from the side as the car passed the position the gunman was estimated to have been in;  the bullet cut across the front of his stomach just below the surface, basically tearing up a bunch of flab.  (If he'd lost a little weight, it probably would have missed. )