User Panel
Posted: 10/24/2004 8:07:31 AM EDT
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57435-2004Oct23.html
Sorry if it's a dupe! Throwaway registration id: [email protected] Password:joey |
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Can someone demiliatary this topic down to a civilian level for us nobodies?
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If they see combat, give them a CIB or CIB equivelant. The infantry no longer has a monopoly on combat action . . . . .
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When did they EVER? |
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No disrespect, but it's worth reading. Did you know that, since WWII, infantrymen (just MOS 11, not including Marines) have been 80% of all KIA's? |
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They may have a point. What they are saying is that an Armor Unit, that has been re-organized and retrained to be Infantry, and is fighting as an Infantry unit, should be considered an Infantry unit for the purpose of awarding the CIB. Would you be satisfied if they awarded all of these folks an SMOS of 11B at the conclusion of re-training, and their MTOE was temporarily modified to show that the unit was provisional Infantry BN, with soldiers serving in their SMOS instead of their primary?
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I have devoted my entire adult life to the study and participation in the profession of arms. There is nothing some reporter can write in some article based on half-ass research and a few interviews that will effect ANYTHING I already know or believe. |
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Nope. They can re-enlist 11B if it means that much to them. Tankers have had to dismount before - even back in WWII when the CIB was created. |
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In today's army... things are different.
I'm a tanker. I'm doing patrols as an infantryman half the time, out of a semi-armoured HMMWV, carrying a rifle. I don't want a CIB. I do want a CAB which is its own long-running issue. Two of the companies in the battalion are classed as 'Motor Infantry (Provisional)'. Heck, they even call them infantry in the name. They're fighting to get the training they received in Ft Lewis ratified as 11B qualification so that they can get the same award as the chaps in the next company over doing exactly the same job with exactly the same equipment. Originally CIB was introduced as a prestigious award to entice people to join the Infantry. This may or may not still be the case, but the Army's current policy is to eliminate distinction between the branches. This is why the new ACUs don't have branch insignia on them. (Much to our chagrin. I'm going to keep weaing BDUs with my M26 and sabers on it until the last possible day). The continuation of a CIB or a CMB is contrary to this new policy. I think the correct decision is either to give the CIB to all soldiers who are tasked as infantry, regardless of MOS, or to award the suitable branch badge to applicable soldiers. This still distinguishes between those who were shot at and those who worked in the PX in Doha. (All would get the combat patch). I believe the Marines do the former, with the Combat Action Ribbon. I was given my CAB this week. Of course, not being an official award, I'm not allowed to wear it, but it's going on my CVC/flight bag. NTM |
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I do agree that if you have been retrained for infantry missions, you should be trained to the standard needed to award the 11B MOS and have that MOS added to thier record.
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Truer words were never spoken. This is incredibly silly shit to be discussing at this point. The Washington Post is sticking to the liberal game plan; doing its level best to sow dissention in the ranks and demoralize soldiers' families back home. |
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... and then go back and stay 11B, including cold nights in the field and humping a ruck, while the tankers keep theri engines running and eat hot food and sleep in warm beds. |
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Do the guys who got retrained as MP's have to stay pricks the rest of thier career? Just kidding, I know some cool MP's. |
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Let them come of with the "Combat Quartemaster Badge", or the "Combat Tanker Badge". It seems like common sense. Hell. I'm just a dumb Marine, and I figured it out. |
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i would also vote no. Most ARMY MOS's have a badge for combat. ie.... Combat Medical Badge etc.
Armor should have theirs as well. I will say that if they were retrained as infantry and acting in an infantry capacity they SHOULD qaulify for an infantry badge. jmho. mike |
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...only if they have Infantry as an additional, secondary MOS, OR they are serving in aT/O Infantry Billet.
"Acting as though" you are Infantry is not enough. |
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Actually most don't, only the Infantry and Medics do. |
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I think we are coming from two dofferent perspectives on getting the MOS if they do the training. In the USAR/ARNG it is not uncommon for soldiers to swap back and forth, say from 21E to 21B in order to get promoted because there is no E5 slot for 21E, but then switch back to thier original MOS if an E-6 slot opens up in it. I did that 62B-63B, went to the school, but then went back into a 62B slot when the E-6 slot opened. I have had guys do that from 21B-92A and back even. If a slot opens we quite often put someone in it then send them to school to get the MOS, but that doesn't mean they get stuck doing it the whole time. |
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i stand corrected. i was a medic and assumed most other combat related MOS did as well. mike |
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It's a coveted and cherished award that should stand alone and above all others.
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During Vietnam, many non-infantry branch personnel wer awarded the CIB for their tour. Most notable, many officers from the Engineer branch sport the award...
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I say no. The Army has badges/patches/cords/colored hats for all kinds of different things. Cooks wear berets for Christ's sake. The PBI (Poor Bloody Infantry - British WW2 phrase, but very appropriate) should have something to set it apart. If you want a CIB, join the infantry permanently. It should be awarded to infantrymen ONLY IMHO.
On a side note, I rate a CAR from my service in GW1. I always admired the Army's CIB and wish the Marines had something like it rather than just another ribbon. Don't dilute the CIB. Infantry only. |
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If they are conducting infantry operations against an armed enemy, they're infantry. In the Army, everyone is a rifleman.
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Don't know who you ran into armor-wise, but the only time we were allowed to run our engines during downtime was to bring the batteries back up to charge, since we were running two radios, then we had to shut them back down. "Hot food"? Yeah, we could heat up an MRE by putting the packet into the engine exhaust vent for a short while, but then, after I ended up in the Guard, and humping a ruck in a LI unit since the MDANG didn't have any armor slots, I ended up using heat tabs to do the same. "Warm beds"? I was Army, not Air Force. If we were out in the field, I ended up usually sleeping under the tank, or on the engine deck. Never slept in a bunk out in the field except at Graf where we had the range barracks. |
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Perhaps not the CIB (although those qualified as and acting as...?) but I do think soldiers who have "seen the elephant" should have some sort of device recognizing this. I know when I meet a soldier wearing the CIB I am meeting a man who has walked the walk.
Other combat MOSs types who have been in the middle of it deserve similar recognition and respect as well, IM(nonmilitary)O. WHY WOULD ANYONE OBJECT TO SOME OTHER AWARD WITH THE SAME MEANING FOR THEM? I DO NOT UNDERSTAND. |
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I was speaking relaitve to the infantry, not a 5-star hotel. Infantrymen do not have a jet engine they can fire up at the coldest time of night to thaw their toes. Everything is relative. I agree that maybe the Army needs an equiavalent to the Navy/ Marine Corps CAR. The fact remains, that people join the infantry for bragging rights and out of tradition. It is historically - and will continue to be - the most thankless, difficult, casualty suffering job in the Army. If a little piece of cloth lets them feel better about themselves and their fellow infantrymen - let 'em keep it as their own. |
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The other MOS's already have a way of being recognized for combat service. They wear a shoulder patch on the right sleeve of their uniform. |
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Are you tripping? |
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Visualize a scenario.....
An infantry platoon is patrolling in (nameless third world shithole) when they come under a torrent of enemy fire. Unable to assault out of the kill zone the survivors take shelter behind streetside rubble and attempt to return fire, but ineffectively. The platoon FO, who has been attached to infantry platoons and companies his entire career, struggles to his RATELO and calls for a fire mission, all the while under heavy fire. Three miles away, safely within the confines of a secure basecamp, a mortar section recieves the fire mission. A mortar FDC chief in a safe tent, sips his coffee and mathematically calculates a firing solution and sends it to the tubes. The mortar section fires the mission. The 120mm HE rounds land near the target, and the FO brackets them onto target, fires for effect and saves the day, the enemy fire is suppressed. The mortar FDC, who calculated a mathematical solution while enjoying his Java in a secure base away from enemy fire, protected by an MP Company, just earned a CIB. His MOS is 11C. The FO, who is a member of a leg infantry platoon, and the hero of our story, doesn't get shit. His MOS is 13F. The 13F does get a combat patch though. Same combat patch that the Brigade mail clerk got at his desk 125 klicks in the rear. Mean while, the mail clerks platoon sergeant, who is a marginal SFC that was farmed out to keep him from fucking up important missions, he most likely gets a CIB too, (and a combat patch) even though he never heard a shot fired. His MOS is 11B. This is bullshit. Either redefine 'infantry' to more accurately define who is really a grunt and who ain't, or add Combat XXX Badges for all the combat arms. By the way, this is not meant to imply that mortar troops are pogues, they are not, it's just a very possible scenario to illustrate a point. |
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I was under the impression that infantry got the CIB, hence the clever name.
And everybody else got to wear the patch of the unit they were in combat with on one shoulder now matter where they went? Doesn't that say "I'm not infantry, but got shot at"? |
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If this tanker gets it, how much ya wanna bet Kerry puts in for it too? |
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I would submit that cav scouts (19Ds) who as near as I can tell going from our scout platoon do not qualify for CIBs but also sleep in the dirt with no turbine engines to keep them warm, running missions out of HMMWVs and basically are running as infantry might be a better comparison than tankers.
Ultimately the only difference between a cav scout and an infantryman is that an infantryman's job is to take and hold ground, whilst it's only an ancillary role for cav (though it's one that they can be given). NTM |
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If they do the job, the deserve the badge that says they did it. Who cares what their original MOS is.
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They already recieve recognition. What more does one want? |
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There's another MOS that can be awarded the CIB. It's a 1542.
Yes, there should be some type of award for all military who have been in combat. |
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I think 1542 is an obsolete MOS for Infantry Unit Commander.
Still infantry. |
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Why don't they just make a catch-all "combat SOLDIER badge" and put the whole silly mess to rest?
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Because it would be a slap in the face to the infantry, and we already have combat patches. |
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My old MOS in now obsolete! Guess I am also........... Adam_White, I've been reading your posts and I salute you sir! |
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