Sorry, no Cliff Notes version.

www.rmiweb.org/other/sansone-cheung.htm

But suppose you're too lazy to read; you can listen to this one instead (RealPlayer)

www.straitgate.com/gbgs.ram

One of my friends in college wrote a paper that would actually prove the existence of God and leave no room to disagree. Never got a chance to read it unfortunately.
Still think its all a bunch of shit myself, but to each his own.

*EDIT*

Its alot better read if you pornolize it. Pornolized!!

Quoted: I read it, there was not a single mention of body slams or supplexes, thus no smack down awards to be given.

I think they gave him an *intellectual beatdown* award instead.

Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"?

No.

Quoted: Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"? No.

Of course you haven't.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"? No. Of course you haven't.

I think the price of tea in China just went up.

Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"?

I LOVE that show. It's Tivo'd. "12 Steppin" was great!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"? No. Of course you haven't.

Don't be circular.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"? No. Of course you haven't. I think the price of tea in China just went up.

Or put another way, because I haven't watched Penn and Teller, Vincent Cheung did not defeat Derek Sansone through rational argumentation??  Perhaps you're trying to tell me Penn and Teller offer a non-fallacious rebuttal to Vincent Cheung's arguments?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Catch the Showtime series by Penn and Tellar called "Bullshit"? No. Of course you haven't. Don't be circular.

Exactly.
"RickyRifle is wrong because he hasn't seen Penn and Teller, because people who haven't seen Penn and Teller are wrong."

Quoted: One of my friends in college wrote a paper that would actually prove the existence of God and leave no room to disagree. Never got a chance to read it unfortunately. Still think its all a bunch of shit myself, but to each his own.

Recaps of medieval scholastic xian apologetics are pretty common in college papers.  It's pretty hard to find anything new in rational proofs of God.  Maybe it's a waste of fucking time.

IF you wonna see a Christian beatdown an Athiest ,then send one to my fort.

I remember back when I had an imaginary friend too.

Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well.

The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God.

tagged

Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well.

And any Christian that uses the Bible to adminster an intellectual beatdown to an atheist on the existence of God is guilty of a logical fallacy.

Quoted: Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well. And any Christian that uses the Bible to adminster an intellectual beatdown to an atheist on the existence of God is guilty of a logical fallacy.

Damn Straight.

Come on Ricky, you knew this was going to pretty much incite a riot because pretty much every religion based thread does. So please, think before you post. Do it for the children...

I suppose that was an interesting philosophical exchange.

But it holds little appeal to me.

I cannot rationalize someone into a relationship with God. If I can talk someone into "believing" in God, I can talk them right back out of it.

There are rational causes to believe in God. I certainly agree with this premise. If God is, then He IS ultimate Truth.

But God cannot be known merely by the intellect or senses. There is a dimension to encounter with God that can only be experienced through the spirit, and without this experience belief in Christ is about as real as belief in gravity.

The day I learned about gravity was not memorable. I went on about my life the same way as I did before I knew what gravity was. But the day I had an encounter with Christ completely transformed my life. It is this transforming experience that cannot be grasped by the intellect that is the mark of a genuine Christian. Despite all arguements and all human reasoning and even the most dire of circumstances that may befall such a person, the work done inside them is so powerful that it makes them unmovable.

You can do what you would like to them, even to the point of torturing and murdering them. But God has stamped His glory in their hearts and there is literally nothing you can do to change them. They know their redeemer, and nothing you can say or do will change that.

That is the genuine message of the cross. I don't believe I would ever be in such a debate as the one shown because I know it would be utterly fruitless.

No matter how great my intellect, there is always one greater. If my intellect is the center of my "faith" then I am doomed. But if the transformational power of God is the central pillar of my faith, then I remain unshakable in myself, and a powerful witness to others because I operate in His strength, and not my own.

Way too much reading...

On the surface, it seems like two pure acedemics (who desperately need to get laid) are fighting a battle of other peoples 'big words'.  Yawn...

Quoted: Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well. And any Christian that uses the Bible to adminster an intellectual beatdown to an atheist on the existence of God is guilty of a logical fallacy.

Well, I reject that on its face, but understand teh futility of discussing it. I stand by my original statement, as I'm sure you stand by yours.

Look at it another way -


An atheist is a person who says God doesn't exist. Any person who can say God doesn't exist MAKES HIMSELF GOD. You would HAVE to be God to claim a being superior to you doesn't exist, making YOURSELF supreme to Him called God..

Proving atheism is itself a logical fallacy. An atheist is a person who says he himself doesn't exist.

The logically honest position is agnosticism. Atheism is a dishonest, preposterous, foolish lie.

It is. And you know it.

Quoted: Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well. And any Christian that uses the Bible to adminster an intellectual beatdown to an atheist on the existence of God is guilty of a logical fallacy.

Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I can say with all the certainty possible that the words we read in the Bible today are the words penned by the Apostles roughly 2,000 years ago. I have demonstrated this in previous threads and have shown how we can have more certainty about the content of the New Testament than we can of any other aincient literary work.

But that does not "prove" Christ as Lord. One must accept the Word at face value and proceed from there into relationship with God. If they reject the Word, they reject Him.

I can argue for the diety of Christ and the truth of His Word by appealing to the Bible. I can argue the existence of a man named Christ from history, but I can only argue for the diety of Christ through His Word and the power of the Holy Spirit that inspired the Word.

The Bible is the Word of God, and I can appeal to no higher source to make my case than that. If someone rejects the Bible altogether, then I cannot argue Christ. I can reasonably say there is a Creator, but I cannot speak for who the creator is.

My entire existence, and indeed the fate of my eternal soul, is based on the Bible being the Word of the Living God. My soul is utterly and completely dependent on the Word's testimony that Christ was the Second Person of the Trinity come to earth in human form, born of a virgin, living a sinless human life, beaten and crucified for the sins of man, and risen on the third day triumphant over death, hell, and the grave.

On Christ the solid rock I stand. All other ground is sinking sand.

Logic and reason are not sufficient to fully grasp this truth.

Quoted: Well, I reject that on its face, but understand teh futility of discussing it. I stand by my original statement, as I'm sure you stand by yours. Look at it another way - An atheist is a person who says God doesn't exist. Any person who can say God doesn't exist MAKES HIMSELF GOD. You would HAVE to be God to claim a being superior to you doesn't exist, making YOURSELF supreme to Him called God.. Proving atheism is itself a logical fallacy. An atheist is a person who says he himself doesn't exist. The logically honest position is agnosticism. Atheism is a dishonest, preposterous, foolish lie. It is. And you know it.

Yeah, I believe im god because i refuse to believe in your invisible little man... Oi

I worship the sun.  I see my God every day.  Without my God, the world would be fucked.

Quoted: An atheist is a person who says God doesn't exist. Any person who can say God doesn't exist MAKES HIMSELF GOD. You would HAVE to be God to claim a being superior to you doesn't exist, making YOURSELF supreme to Him called God..

Baloney...  You don't understand the concept of a null value.  

Additionally, your example doesn't allow for alternate religions.  

Proving atheism is itself a logical fallacy. An atheist is a person who says he himself doesn't exist.

 Come one now, you don't extract yourself from a hole by keeping on digging...

The logically honest position is agnosticism. Atheism is a dishonest, preposterous, foolish lie.

 Pure genius...  The old silly fallback position of 'you can't prove a negative so Jesus is lord.'  There are many things in life that you rely on and base your assumptions off of...  When you kiss Mrs. Garandman before going to work, do you tell her that you'll "see her this evening", or do you say "I'll see you this evening, unless I get hit by a car, choke on a sweet tart, get mauled by a baboon, etc...".  Odds are, you will choose the former even though you cannot guarantee 100% that you will see the Mrs. at the time you state.   It's the same thing with me.  Even though I cannot prove there is not diety, or force of creation, I have judged the possibility to be below the threshold of RATIONAL possiblity, and thus call myself an athiest.  

It would be foolish for someone who doesn't believe in a diety to claim agnosticism for no other reason than the fact that you can't prove a negative.

How about this, why do you call yourself a Christian when you can't prove 100% that the Jews are not correct.  

Quoted: The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God.

Quoted: Quoted: The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God.

+4.  

I'm not sure, but I don't think that's right.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Lemme put it this way - any Christian that CAN'T give an atheist an intellectual beatdown doesn't know his Scriptures very well. And any Christian that uses the Bible to adminster an intellectual beatdown to an atheist on the existence of God is guilty of a logical fallacy. Well, I reject that on its face, but understand teh futility of discussing it. I stand by my original statement, as I'm sure you stand by yours. Look at it another way - An atheist is a person who says God doesn't exist. Any person who can say God doesn't exist MAKES HIMSELF GOD. You would HAVE to be God to claim a being superior to you doesn't exist, making YOURSELF supreme to Him called God.. Proving atheism is itself a logical fallacy. An atheist is a person who says he himself doesn't exist.   The logically honest position is agnosticism. Atheism is a dishonest, preposterous, foolish lie. It is. And you know it.

saying there is no god doesn't make you a god.   Thats the kind of argument that is based on faith, not logic.    

atheism makes no statement on the existence of the individual, hell even solipsism doesn't go that far

Atheisms is also the lack of belief in god, since the vast majority of agnostics don't believe in a diety, they would be atheists.  I would say all but there are some agnostics who believe in a deity, but think god is incomprehensable to the human mind, so we can never really know anything about him.  

That guy Vincent Cheung uses philophical arguments to "prove" god exists.  There are hundreds of philisophical arguments that "prove" god does not exist as well.   Since Cheung starts from the position of "my arguments are true, you need to prove yours"  its impossible to have any kind of meaninful debate with him.   Of course the guy writing the letter sounds like an idiot as well /shrug  Just shows both atheists and theists can be equally stupid.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God. +4.   I'm not sure, but I don't think that's right.

"The fool has said in his heart,
       "There is no God."
       They are corrupt,
       They have done abominable works,
       There is none who does good.


       2The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
       To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
       3They have all turned aside,
       They have together become corrupt;
       There is none who does good,
       No, not one.


       4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,
       Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
       And do not call on the LORD?
       5There they are in great fear,
       For God is with the generation of the righteous.
       6You shame the counsel of the poor,
       But the LORD is his refuge."

Psalm 14

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The existence of atheism is in itself a proof of the existence of God. +4.   I'm not sure, but I don't think that's right. "The fool has said in his heart,        "There is no God."        They are corrupt,        They have done abominable works,        There is none who does good.        2The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,        To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.        3They have all turned aside,        They have together become corrupt;        There is none who does good,        No, not one.        4Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge,        Who eat up my people as they eat bread,        And do not call on the LORD?        5There they are in great fear,        For God is with the generation of the righteous.        6You shame the counsel of the poor,        But the LORD is his refuge." Psalm 14

I love when people pull that out as proof of god.

I used to give a long list of atheists who have done good to show the bible is not the literal truth, but I don't even bother anymore.

I do find it amusing that my lack of belief in someone's fairy godmother could cause them to pull any somewhat related passage from their sacred book looking for any way to justify their belief.   Its funny, you should check out the Muslim pages where they "prove" the Koran predicted all major scientific breakthroughs, its a laugh riot.

Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day.  Give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

Quoted: I love when people pull that out as proof of god. I used to give a long list of atheists who have done good to show the bible is not the literal truth, but I don't even bother anymore. I do find it amusing that my lack of belief in someone's fairy godmother could cause them to poor over a book looking for any way to justify their belief.

I don't pour over the book to justify my belief. Your belief or non-belief in Christ has no real impact on me. It does not shake my faith. You choose your own way, I choose mine.

I do find it interesting, however, that the Bible accurately predicts every objection to the faith and every trick used to dminish it with such accuracy. One could almost say it is a sign....

Quoted: I do find it interesting, however, that the Bible accurately predicts every objection to the faith and every trick used to dminish it with such accuracy. One could almost say it is a sign....

one could also call it good editing

If I write a book as the Easter Bunny and say anyone who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny is an evil doer, would you see THAT as a sign as well?

If there is a real, personal god, how come he never comes over for dinner invites us out to eat?

Why doesn't god go on TV and settle this once and for all by performing a miracle Penn and Teller can't explain away?

How come god doesn't write any more books, hand down updated commandments or talk through burning bushes?

Why doesn't god finally come out and say whose side he is on? He can't be on everyone's side in every war and football game.

Lets use a little common sense here. If there was a god, wouldn't he come around once in a while and have his ring kissed or something?

And one more thing. Since Satan is the ultimate 'rebel', why aren't more southerners satanists?

Who said they poured over any book on your account, maybe that's just a verse that makes them believe, or that mkes the most sense to them and they know it well.
I don't know about God for sure, lots of questions and things don't make sense, God can be hard to believe, but the best explanation for the physical world according to atheists is the big bang theory and there's a lot more that's hard to believe about that, I mean "nothing" just doesn't blow up, much less blow up with a force great enough to have caused the universe.
As for evolution, seems reasonable in principal until you realize you can't conveiently start with some tadpole or living organism. No you have to trace those smallest of lifeforms backwards until your way past some glob of spit, and I could spit on the ground and there isn't any amount of time that could go by to where it's going to turn into something and become more alive.
But evolution would have to go much further back before that even, and have me believe that that just started living and went forward, when everything around us and everything we know shows us that things wither, fade and die and are reduced with time?
That's just my simplified thoughts.
God is hard to believe also, but maybe not as hard as to believe that all this world and life started from nothing.
It's easier to believe that something started the world rather than that nothing starting the world.

Quoted: saying there is no god doesn't make you a god.   Thats the kind of argument that is based on faith, not logic.

OF COURSE it does.

Who BUT GOD could say God (of the Bible) doesn't exist??

To tell God He doesn't exist assumes you are superior to Him.

Its the MOST basic of logic.

ALL HAIL THE SUN GOD!!!

ALL HAIL THE DARK LORD

Quoted: It's easier to believe that something started the world rather than that nothing starting the world.

For you maybe.  And that's fine.  That's faith - belief in something without logical proof.

Athiests like myself have no trouble believing that the world started from nothing.  We don't have complete evidence for that either.  Note that atheism isn't a lack of faith, it's merely a lack on a belief in a god or gods.

If being a god is taking responsibility for your own actions, then fine, athiests believe that man is (according to your definition of it) a god.

Quoted: Quoted: saying there is no god doesn't make you a god.   Thats the kind of argument that is based on faith, not logic.     OF COURSE it does. Who BUT GOD could say God (of the Bible) doesn't exist?? To tell God He doesn't exist assumes you are superior to Him. Its the MOST basic of logic.

Got blinders?

Your statement is predicated on the belief in the god being discussed.  One cannot both believe, and claim disbelief.  One can ignore or disobey and still believe, but one cannot both believe and disbelieve.  

Quoted: Way too much reading... On the surface, it seems like two pure acedemics (who desperately need to get laid) are fighting a battle of other peoples 'big words'.  Yawn...

I must agree.

Then again I'm pretty shallow intelictually and most of what I read I did not understand. I did not even finish the "non-debate"

Yawn.

"That's faith - belief in something without logical proof."

Any you have much more faith than the common christian, believing that nothing started the world without logical proof.

Quoted: If there is a real, personal god, how come he never comes over for dinner invites us out to eat?

"9As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne."

Revelation 20

Why doesn't god go on TV and settle this once and for all by performing a miracle Penn and Teller can't explain away?

A woman came into one of our services a couple of weeks ago in a wheelchair, crippled by artritis in her legs. Her joints were swolen and misshapen.

She left that service PUSHING her wheelchair with her joints in perfect condition and as healthy as a teenager's. Her doctor (more of an expert than Penn or Teller) couldn't explain it.

But you must remember that God is not a trained seal who will bark on command. He performs the miraculous in response to FAITH.

How come god doesn't write any more books, hand down updated commandments or talk through burning bushes?

Books are constantly being inspired by the Holy Spirit. I have read several. God spoke through prophets in the Old Testament, and has spoken through Apostles and saints in the New Testament. God has ALWAYS spoken through man, even the man Christ:

" 1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. 4Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us[1] make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah."
5While he was still speaking, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!" 6And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their faces and were greatly afraid. 7But Jesus came and touched them and said, "Arise, and do not be afraid." 8When they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no one but Jesus only. "

Matthew 17

An eternal God who knows the end from the beginning has NO NEED to "update" His commands to fit the time. If God is, then time is subject to Him, so what cause would he have to change? Would He lower His standard? Admit wrong in something because some limited temporal creature told Him to?

Why doesn't god finally come out and say whose side he is on? He can't be on everyone's side in every war and football game.

God isn't on anyone's side but His own. People try to claim Him as being for them or against others, but the truth is that God is on His OWN side. He stands for Himself and His own sovereignty, no one else's. Those who submit to God's authority sign up to be on HIS side.

Lets use a little common sense here. If there was a god, wouldn't he come around once in a while and have his ring kissed or something?

Well I don't know about you, but I commune with God fairly regularly. I can find Him wherever I go, any time I need Him. He is also a pretty regular fixture at my church services. Perhaps you are just looking for Him in the wrong place.....

Quoted: Got blinders? Your statement is predicated on the belief in the god being discussed.

No its not. Say that Javic is the real God. (I just made that up)

For me to say "God doesn't exist" presumes I am superior to Javic. Which makes me God.

Thus BOTH deists AND atheists  beleive in a god.

The SIMPLEST of logic.

Quoted: Quoted: saying there is no god doesn't make you a god.   Thats the kind of argument that is based on faith, not logic.     OF COURSE it does. Who BUT GOD could say God (of the Bible) doesn't exist?? To tell God He doesn't exist assumes you are superior to Him. Its the MOST basic of logic.

thats logical IF you assume
1) there is a god
2) the god you worship is the ONLY god
3) everyone who is an atheist makes the positive statement that god does not exist

the first 2 are unprovable assumptions and the last is just plain wrong

thats a bit of logic on top of a base of pure faith

If that works for you, then great.  Just don't expect "logic" like that to convince anyone other than someone who already believes.

Quoted: Quoted: I do find it interesting, however, that the Bible accurately predicts every objection to the faith and every trick used to dminish it with such accuracy. One could almost say it is a sign.... one could also call it good editing If I write a book as the Easter Bunny and say anyone who doesn't believe in the Easter Bunny is an evil doer, would you see THAT as a sign as well?

??

That analogy doesn't even make sense. The Bible doesn't just blanketly call non-believers evil doers, but it discerns the thoughts and intents of their hearts. I have found that the Bible is accurate about the attacks against the faith, and the motivations prompting those attacks, so accurate it is scary sometimes.

Pat Robertson is not secretly editing the Bible to be accurate about the events and attitudes of today without anyone knowing. It has said the same things for 2,000 years, and remarkably it is as accurate today as it ever has been.

Quoted: No its not. Say that Javic is the real God. (I just made that up)

Yes, and thats the point.