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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:35:00 PM EDT
[#1]
There was some city in Virginia that closed it's public schools edit to add For 5 years-rather than give up segregation. I suppose the confederacy would have been better for white guys who were into guns, but for the rest, probably not so good.
Oh and a divided US would not have been able to stop the Nazis so we'd all be speaking german at this point. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:35:28 PM EDT
[#2]
Who knows what would have become, good or bad
 , i also agree with Aimless on the divided nation part.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:37:38 PM EDT
[#3]
well even though they lost, some of them still think they won
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:38:47 PM EDT
[#4]
It is not likely that either side on its own would have went on to become a world power, much less a super power. The truth is there would have likely been foreign invasions by european countries shortly after the end of the war, the Chinese would have likely become what we are now.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:41:13 PM EDT
[#5]
Much better off! |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:42:16 PM EDT
[#6]
There are some science fiction books, the author's name escapes me, where he has the US and CSA basically end in a draw-
anyway he basically has WWI take place on US soil instead of in Europe. They're just stories, but interesting. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:43:10 PM EDT
[#7]
Trailer homes would be seen as "high living".
Public School would stop at the 10th grade. Having more than 4 teeth would be considered "flashy" The whole country would think Jeff Foxworthy was a "high faluting intellectual..........." |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:44:32 PM EDT
[#8]
We wouldn't be dealing with silly-ass gun control!
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:49:44 PM EDT
[#9]
Interesting. What makes you think it would be divided and not unified like it is now? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:49:46 PM EDT
[#10]
harry turtledove |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:54:40 PM EDT
[#11]
Even if the South would have won I think by the early 20th century reintegration would happen, just the experiance of the war and the souths expirament with independence would change the way we look at states right so we likley would never have had the percipitous rise in the scope and power of the federal government that has happened mostly due to FDR and Johnson.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:56:57 PM EDT
[#12]
I was going to bring this up, as well. I believe there would still have been one nation. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:01:20 PM EDT
[#13]
 Damn funny!
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:02:01 PM EDT
[#14]
Clearly you have no real understanding of history! 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:07:18 PM EDT
[#15]
"The dangers of a concentration of all power in the general government of a confederacy so vast as ours are too obvious to be disregarded." --President Franklin Pierce
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:08:01 PM EDT
[#16]
We would have been reunited by 1900 as the USA but with strong states rights. Nashville would be the Nations capitol, Barbeque ribs would be eaten for Thanksgiving and the Beverly Hillbillies would have been a drama instead of a comedy. Everything else would be about the same.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:08:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Good point, he asked "if the South won" so I guess I am kind of cheating. I could see the CSA fighting to a draw or truce, and taking DC (you can have it, ha ha) but having the manpower and resources to take on all of PA, NY and into New England? Depending on the weather that'd be about as much fun as trying to take Moscow. I just don't think they had the man power, technology or resources to do it. I don't maybe if they allied with a european power? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:08:16 PM EDT
[#18]
A lot of things had to happen for the nazis to rise to power, if the US hadn't gotten involved in WWI it's unlikely that Hitler would ever have gotten elected, it was only the complete collapse of the economy and currency that made Hitler attractive.
Let alone whether WWI would have occurred had the previous 50 years of world history been different, there's no telling. The essential difference is whether states were sovereign entities in a federation or provinces of a federal power. We did OK repelling european invasions prior to the civil war and likely would after. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:13:22 PM EDT
[#19]
The Martians would have invaded.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:14:13 PM EDT
[#20]
During that time California attempted secession to start own country, but failed.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:16:39 PM EDT
[#21]
"Bush is pursuing the states' rights ideology, in contrast to the Union; the embrace of Jefferson Davis rather than Abraham Lincoln. ... They intend to push the ideology of the Confederacy and continue to challenge the vision of the Union." --Je$$ie Jack$on
We weren't aware that states' rights were a bad thing, and Jeff Davis wasn't the one who trampled the Constitution! |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:17:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Yep, you can't do that on a "what if" game. 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:25:06 PM EDT
[#23]
I think slavery would have ended in the south even if The Confederacy had maintained its independance.
Every reasonable human understands that slavery is wrong and that all men are created equal. The Civil War was just as much about states rights as it was slavery. Personally I am glad that we are one nation, however I also think that another Civil War will occur in the future, there will be a purging in our country of one ideology. This war will be fought more along the lines of political debate rather than one state vs another. I hope this occurs in my life time rather than my childrens. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:27:21 PM EDT
[#24]
I think we'd be better off. We'd have been reunited. Slavery would have disappeared anyhow-the industrial revolution would have made it obsolete and abolitionist sentiment was increasing in the prewar South anyhow.
Reconstruction is the thing that really hurt the country. If it hadn't been for that, I don't think we'd have had anywhere near the racism and poverty that characterized the South for the 100 years after the War of Northern Aggression. Reconstruction was also the beginning of the end of state's rights. And if you Yanks don't think you got the shit whipped out of you, I'd invite you to compare casualty figures. The only reason you won was because you had more money to spend and more Irish to use as cannon fodder. -METT-T, great-great-great-grandson of Cpl. Benjamin H. Strother, Co. K, 5th Virginia Infantry, "Stonewall Brigade" |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:32:40 PM EDT
[#25]
PS-I know how nostalgic you southerners are for the Civil War, I'll be in TN tomorrow if anyone wants to surrender to me.   I kill me
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:36:31 PM EDT
[#26]
"I here declare my unmitigated hatred to Yankee rule -- to all political, social and business connection with the Yankees and to the Yankee race. Would that I could impress these sentiments, in their full force, on every living Southerner and bequeath them to every one yet to be born! May such sentiments be held universally in the outraged and down-trodden South, though in silence and stillness, until the now far-distant day shall arrive for just retribution for Yankee usurpation, oppression and atrocious outrages, and for deliverance and vengeance for the now ruined, subjugated and enslaved Southern States! ...And now with my latest writing and utterance, and with what will be near my latest breath, I here repeat and would willingly proclaim my unmitigated hatred to Yankee rule--to all political, social and business connections with Yankees, and the perfidious, malignant and vile Yankee race." -Edmund Ruffin ...  We's jis a-waitin' fer part two..
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:38:54 PM EDT
[#27]
If the South won, Southeners would have even less State's Rights than they do now.
The government of the COnfederacy trampled over the rights of it's own citizens worse than the North ever did. Davis institutied the first Draft in American History, a year before the North started it's own draft. The Confederte govt. had the power to confiscate property, regulate interstate commerce amongst it's own member states, taxed the member states for the purpose of maintaining the Confederate govt., instituted laws that prohibited it's member States from passing any laws that interefered with Slavery (so much for States Rights), suspended Haebus Corpus, and a secert law was passed that gave the Confederate govt. control of each member state's militia (that's how Davis could order the SOuth Carolina militia forces to open fire on Ft. Sumter) Good thing for our Southern members of this board that the South lost. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:39:26 PM EDT
[#28]
KRISPY KREME WOULD HAVE BEEN UP IN THIS NECK OF THE WOODS 20 YEARS AGO 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:40:14 PM EDT
[#29]
Yeah, that makes sense. Reconstruction is what caused all the racism and poverty, not the hundred years of slavery that came before reconstruction. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:40:54 PM EDT
[#30]
"I shall not be defeated in battle by men who stay home from work when there is only a 1/2" of snow on the roads" Aimless
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:42:59 PM EDT
[#31]
I think somebody still has a chip on his shoulder from an ass whipping delivered over 130 years ago. 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:43:55 PM EDT
[#32]
Interesting question.
If the South had won, but the Nation stayed together...Would the Federal Gov. be taken seriously by anyone?...by other countries? Would the South have succeded from the Union? Or would they have settled for states rights? Would England, and France have tried to come in and take advantage of the situation? Hard to say... I would think that the English were watching everything that unfolded in the U.S. for a very long time after the Revolutionary War, with a bit of a chip on their shoulder. Has any nation whos government LOST a civil war to some of its own people ever risen to the level of a super power? I guess there are really too many variables to consider, in order to be able to say what the world would be like Today. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:46:05 PM EDT
[#33]
Again, who instituted the first draft ever in American history? Davis Who was able to confiscate personal property? Davis Who established a tax for the sole purpose of maintaining a central govt? Davis Who had control of all the State Militias? Davis Who said "desperate circumstances override constitutional questions."? Jefferson Davis When asked about the Constitutionality of the Draft, who retorted "the [government's] right need only be stated to be admitted,"? Davis So how did the South not trample over the Constitution? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:46:28 PM EDT
[#34]
Yeah, but have a little context here. The Confederacy was entirely a wartime government. I don't think any of those things would have lasted post-war. I can't imagine a victorious Confederacy establishing a national army or police force to enforce those kinda things, or even an IRS. Hell, they couldn't get the state govs to coordinate when they were fighting for their lives, why would they do it in peacetime? This inability to coordinate would have eventually doomed the Confederacy-some federalism is necessary to have a country. But it's reabsorbtion into the Union would have left us with a much stronger state's rights tradition and a government based on a strict interpretation of the Constitution. No Roe v. Wade, no gun control, no forced removal of the Ten Commandments from courthouses, no federal DEA jbts kicking down doors and shooting innocents, etc. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:47:26 PM EDT
[#35]
Outstanding post. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:48:54 PM EDT
[#36]
I don't ever forsee a time when a government would hand back powers that it had. Governments always move to become more restrictive, not less. I am sure that it started because it was a wartime govt. but in seceeding from the Union the Confederacy destroyed the very thing it was seceeding for. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:53:02 PM EDT
[#37]
yeah, glad you agree. Nobody hated black people before the War. People in the North and the South blamed the war largely on blacks-look at the NYC Draft Riots. The Klan wasn't formed until 1876. I mean, there was racism, sure, but it wouldn't have had anywhere near the staying power had it not been for the actions of the fed during Reconstruction. Poverty? The South was in ruins after the war. Nobody could afford to take advantage of the Industrial Revolution, and the following entrenchment of the sharecropping system kept blacks and whites poor for the next five decades or so. And there was more like 250 years of slavery before Reconstruction. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:53:35 PM EDT
[#38]
lol. OK, you got me there.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:54:05 PM EDT
[#39]
You must be from Occupied Virginia.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:59:19 PM EDT
[#40]
Again, what powers did the Confederacy have? How exactly was it supposed to "take control" of the state militias? Civil War history is full of examples of state military commanders and government officials telling Davis to take a walk. Look at the lack of coordination at opposing Sherman. I don't think you can base any speculation about the eventual form of the Confederacy by looking solely at the actions of the impotent wartime Davis administration. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:59:28 PM EDT
[#41]
NASCAR would be THE national sport. Marrage among "kinfolk" would be the norm.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:01:20 PM EDT
[#42]
What? Nothing about Lincoln? Are you offering the "my guy was bad but your guy was bad too" defense? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:06:23 PM EDT
[#43]
I understand that we are up to our ass in FedGov, StateGov and Bureaucracy because of history. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:09:59 PM EDT
[#44]
well they didn't win, get over it.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:12:22 PM EDT
[#45]
Leave you personal life out of this. Nice to see muslims are protected but Southerners get bashed at will. mike |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:19:33 PM EDT
[#46]
I, for one, would be living in a mansion on a plantation that produces pot and porn. it would be a good life, except that I would have to say "y'all" all the time.
CW |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:25:20 PM EDT
[#47]
About Jeff Davis, the US has a long history of suspending rights during wartime, but we get most of them back later.
The only way I think the CSA would have won was with a British invasion. The US would have ben split once again. A super Commonwealth of Canada, the Northern US and the CSA could have taken Hitler with Soviet help. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:28:23 PM EDT
[#48]
No, I'm offering the "my guy did what was necessary to win" defense. The Revisionists around here talk about how the South was a bastion of civil rights and state rights, while the North was controlled by an evil tyrant who trampled the Constitution. When one points out that Davis did things far worse than Lincoln, the Revisionists still maintain that Davis was a good man who only did things out of wartime neccesity. Revisionists feel that the South could determine what was a wartime neccesity and what wasn't. According to Revisionists, Davis did what he did because he had to, Lincoln was just an evil tyrant, which neither case was true. Both men did what they had to do, because if one side didn't break the rules, it wouldn't have won. Also like to point out, that most of the stuff that Davis did, he did before Lincoln did it, |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:30:33 PM EDT
[#49]
These powers "The Confederate constitutional crises seemed to start with its creation. Because the rebel constitution invested war-making powers in the Confederate congress, wasn't the governor of South Carolina really the only authority able to order the attack on Fort Sumter? Jefferson's Davis' order to attack Sumter and another Federal fort in Florida, it was later discovered, was authorized by a secret law passed by the Richmond congress." In other words, Jefferson Davis was able to order two different member State's Militia (in this case, South Carolina and Florida) to attack federal forts, when the power to do that should have rested with the respecitve state governors. This is from David Currie,a professor of law at the University of Chicago Law School and a noted expert on American constitutional history. www.law.virginia.edu/home2002/html/news/2002_fall/confed.htm The Confederacy also had the power to confiscate property, regulate interstate commerce, leveled a tax, and started a draft. These all go against the States Rights concept they supposedly seceeded for. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:35:32 PM EDT
[#50]
The bottom line is that this question simply cannot be answered.
People always ask, "How would we have fought the Nazi's?" What makes you think there would have BEEN any Nazi's? How many interactions occurred between 1865 and 1939 to lead to Hitler? What if one of the soldiers killed at Little Round Top had lived, and had children who visited Germany and accidentaly ran over some Austrian corpral who was painting a still life too close to the street corner? See? If the outh had won, the entire scope of history would be so different, it would be completely unrecognizeable. So much so that even to say it was "better" that the North won is completely an opinion based on what DID happen, not what MIGHT have happened. |
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