"because it sits in the tank longer because fewer people buy it."

Injector flaws impede drivers, stump experts
Rash of costly repairs has some experts suspecting tainted gas

www.jsonline.com/news/gen/oct04/268069.asp

Mechanics, while not all in agreement, suggest a number of ways to help protect your vehicle from clogged fuel injectors:

• Never fill up when tankers are resupplying a service station. This stirs up whatever may be at the bottom of the storage tanks.
• Keep gas tank as full as possible on a regular basis. Air in the tank contains moisture than can get into gasoline and cause problems.
• Keep gas tank full or near-full when temperatures drop below freezing.
• Avoid expensive premium gas because it sits in the tank longer because fewer people buy it.
• Every 3,000 miles or so add a fuel injector cleaner/conditioner to tank when it is three-quarters full, then fill it all the way up.

Auto shop mechanics and dealership service managers are scratching their heads over a mysterious spike in the number of cars - of various makes and ages - they are seeing with clogged or failing fuel injectors in recent weeks, sticking their owners with $200 to $900 in repair bills.

"This is definitely out of the ordinary," said Charlie Sampson, a service consultant at Wilde Honda in Waukesha. "We had at least 25 in just three days."

Other Honda dealerships, as well as General Motors Corp. and DaimlerChrysler AG service shops, around the Milwaukee area report similar swells.

Some blame the change in weather - or the newly supplied seasonal gas. Others suggest possible contamination at one of the regional distribution terminals. One oil analyst suggests it could be the heavier crude now being used as a result of Hurricane Ivan knocking out access to lighter supplies from the Gulf Coast.

"We need to track down this product that's causing the problem," said Berni Mattsson, administrator of the agency's Division of Environmental and Regulatory Services.

The Department of Commerce regularly tests petroleum at distribution terminals around the region that supply Wisconsin's roughly 3,300 retailers. It would be unlikely that a terminal would be the source of the trouble, Mattsson said, as typically less than 1% of the incoming product doesn't meet specifications. Unsatisfactory supplies are usually caught before they leave the terminal, she said.

The department also tests service station tanks and pumps once every one to two years.

The Wisconsin Petroleum Council, an agency representing oil producers that supply the state, is also investigating the issue, said Erin Roth, executive director.

Roth said he's talking to all the suppliers to see if something went wrong Sept. 15 when they changed to the winter fuel blend, as is required by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency.

"We're looking at 'Did somebody put too much of an additive in somewhere or are the service station tanks dirty?' " he said.

Roth was reminded of an incident in 2001 when Milwaukee received a supply of fuel with a rust inhibitor 100 times the allowable strength.

"People's cars were stopping on the highway," he said. "I'm not saying that this is what it is. We don't know if it has anything to do with the fuel."

Meanwhile, dealership mechanics and independent garage owners speculate about what might be triggering the surge.

"It's a manufacturers' problem," said Dan Karagianis, manager of Tarkus Complete Automotive Service, 5616 W. Burleigh St. in Milwaukee. Karagianis said he is seeing more fouled fuel injectors in GM vehicles than any others.

"Our manufacturers are telling us it's the fuel," said Al Weimar, service director at Braeger Chevrolet on S. 27th St. in Milwaukee.

Ray Kurian Jr., co-owner of Ray's OK Service Inc., 4100 N. Loomis Road, Greenfield, is convinced it is the fuel. Reformulated gasoline, mandated in six area counties in 1995, has taken a toll on cars over time, he said.

"We have seen a significant increase in failed fuel injectors and failed fuel pumps . . . for no apparent reason at all," Kurian said. "I've been doing this for 32 years now. Since we changed to reformulated gas, the number of fuel injection failures has quadrupled."

Some manufacturers - GM, BMW, Honda and Toyota - are so dissatisfied with the fuel supply nationwide they have teamed up with major oil companies, in an unprecedented move, to devise a new class of gasoline called Top Tier Detergent Gasoline that exceeds EPA detergent requirements. Top Tier is not yet available in Wisconsin.

Honda, which is investigating the fuel injector issue in the Milwaukee area, said low-quality fuel certainly causes problems in the long run.

"We've witnessed over time a degradation in the quality of gasoline," Honda spokesman Andy Boyd said. "We're really trying to address that."

Fuel injectors are meant to last well beyond 100,000 miles, Boyd said.

First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it.

The article also fails to point out that there are filters in the gas station, screens inside the gas tank at the gas pinkup tube, and a gas filter prior to it getting into the engine.


The main reason for clogged fuel injectors is that they don't get maintained and cleaned on a regular basis, not the gas.


SGtar15

I don't suppose the fuel sellers would be responsible if it turns out they put too much of some damn additive into the gas and ruined your injectors.

Quoted: First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it. SGtar15

Why?  Your computer will just retard the timing.  You lose some power, but the car runs.

I still buy premium, but you don't HAVE to.


Plus, you could buy lower level and add octane booster

Car makers spend million designing cars.  Don't you think that after all that research they know what gas is best for them?

Yes, you will lose power with less octane, so now you have to buy more gas to make up for that?

Or pay extra for octane boost?  STill no saving!


In the mean time using LOWER octane WILL hurt your engine.


SGatr15

Quoted: My understanding is that Premium gas isn't any better than plus, it is just a higher octane fuel, and that if your car doesn't have high enough compression it woun't do anything for you anyway.

That is 100% correct.  Usuually it is high performance cars with high comporession that ask for preium.


SGatr15

Quoted: Quoted: First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it. SGtar15 Why?  Your computer will just retard the timing.  You lose some power, but the car runs. I still buy premium, but you don't HAVE to. Plus, you could buy lower level and add octane booster

HMM someone tell that to my Corvette....



BTW Octane booster corodes...

People think high octane  --- means more of a better thing, all it means is it is harder for your engine to detonate it.... nothing more.

A lot of people on Maxima.org freak out about this - "Please use premium gas in your car!" - but I just don't buy it.  My butt-dynamometer just doesn't detect any increase in HP when I spend the extra $2 per tank.

Well, maybe in the Rolls and the Lamborghini I'll splurge now and again - but my '98 Nissan Maxima runs plenty fast on 87.

Quoted: Quoted: My understanding is that Premium gas isn't any better than plus, it is just a higher octane fuel, and that if your car doesn't have high enough compression it woun't do anything for you anyway. That is 100% correct.  Usuually it is high performance cars with high comporession that ask for preium. SGatr15

You're absolutely correct, sgtra15.

If your car doesn't call for preium then preium will do nothing for performance.


All octane does is determine WHEN the gas detonates, not HOW it detonates.


Sgatr15

Dealer tanks being too dirty is easy to confirm or rule out. They just need to check CA as dealers had to replace their tanks a couple of years ago due to stricker below ground storage tank regulations.

 I'm glad my truck runs fine on 87.  

Quoted: If your car calls for premium it would not be a good idea to put in regular then? If it is designed to detonate at a particular point, then even if your computer does retard the timing to compensate then it would seem to me that you would lose performance and maybe even economy by having the fuel detonating before optimum compressin is achieved.

100% correct!  Your saving as the pump results in lose power, performance, and gas mileage.  Plus in the long term you might damage your engine.

I guess it really boils down to who has the ability to read the stinking owners manual and comprehend what it says. If Nissan says use 87 then that would probably be it's ideal fuel, if Nissan says use 103, then use that.

Yup!  L:ike I said, cars makers spend millions designing these cars, if they knew lower octane was better for them they would reccommend it!


SGatr15

Some cars engines will rattle, ping, and knock like hell if they aren't fed premium go juice. It's your car so I don't much care what you put in it.

Quoted: A lot of people on Maxima.org freak out about this - "Please use premium gas in your car!" - but I just don't buy it.  My butt-dynamometer just doesn't detect any increase in HP when I spend the extra $2 per tank. Well, maybe in the Rolls and the Lamborghini I'll splurge now and again - but my '98 Nissan Maxima runs plenty fast on 87.

If your car doesn't call for premium then don't use it...period.

It does absolutely nothing unless you have a compression ratio high enough to need it. If your car doesn't have a high enough compression ratio then, if anything, you're only going ot hurt the performance of your engine. Most likely nothing will happen, but if you were to put in high octane gas and then further add octane booster or something like that you could definitey hurt your engine and you'd probably lose HP due to incomplete burn.

It amazes me how many kids I see running around in their stock Honda Civics that are pouring octane booster into their engines thinking that somehow it magically makes their gas "more explosive" or "more powerful" so that they get more HP. That couldn't be further from the truth, since high octane gas is doing the exact opposite in their stock, low compression engines.

At worst, you could probably damage your engine, at best, you're just throwing your money away and possibly even reducing your performance (assuming your car doesn't have high compression and doesn't call for high octane gas of course).

Quoted: When I purchased my Land Rover in 1999 it was placarded with warnings to run only 92 octane or greater fuel.  I did this to protect my investement.  Some months later I was reading an australian Land Rover site which said 87 octane or greater.  I asked the service manager at the dealership why the difference?  He said because Americans buying premium cars expect them to run on premium fuel.  He further stated that 87 octane would not hurt the car and I would notice little or no difference.

What was the compression ratio on the engine?

The most important thing to do is use at least mid-grade from reputable sources and to use a good fuel system cleaner with every oil change. That is a recipie for much good happy success. If the manual calls for high grade, then feed it high grade.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When I purchased my Land Rover in 1999 it was placarded with warnings to run only 92 octane or greater fuel.  I did this to protect my investement.  Some months later I was reading an australian Land Rover site which said 87 octane or greater.  I asked the service manager at the dealership why the difference?  He said because Americans buying premium cars expect them to run on premium fuel.  He further stated that 87 octane would not hurt the car and I would notice little or no difference. What was the compression ratio on the engine? I only drive the thing, I don't know what makes it go.

The manual doesn't say?

IF your CPU can retard the timing enough, regular gas won't hurt your engine.

I don't think it's a good idea to run it, I agree that the manufacturers spend big bucks to design these engines, and if they can run on lower octane, they would be rated for that.


I don't agree with the article - gas stations run high volumes of fuel.  I doubt the premium I buy is sitting more than a week or two in the tanks.

Quoted: First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it. SGtar15

I'd check your engine specs.  For a natrually aspirated car with a compression ratio of less than around 11:1 (my numbers could be a little off), then you do not need anything better than 87 octane.  For higher compression or for forced induction engines, you can survive on lower octane, as long as you do not push the engine hard.  

All more octane does, is reduce the tendency for the fuel air mix to detonate due to compression prematurely.  That's ALL it does.  Using higher octane than you need will not get you more power or better economy.  Any affect you might think you feel is likely just placebo.    My fuel economy with 87 octane and 93 octane were damn near identical.  My test was not very scientific, but driving similarly with different grades of gas didn't change much.  The higher octane seemed to idle better, but that was probably just the placebo effect.  

Quoted: I don't agree with the article - gas stations run high volumes of fuel.  I doubt the premium I buy is sitting more than a week or two in the tanks.

The AM/PM in my area refuels 2-3 times a week!


SGatr15

Most cars will run fine on 87 and paying for premium is a total waste--check your owners manual.

87 octane in my supercharged mustang=kaboom. She only gets 94.

Use what the car needs.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When I purchased my Land Rover in 1999 it was placarded with warnings to run only 92 octane or greater fuel.  I did this to protect my investement.  Some months later I was reading an australian Land Rover site which said 87 octane or greater.  I asked the service manager at the dealership why the difference?  He said because Americans buying premium cars expect them to run on premium fuel.  He further stated that 87 octane would not hurt the car and I would notice little or no difference. What was the compression ratio on the engine? I only drive the thing, I don't know what makes it go. The manual doesn't say?

That's a fine example of what happens.  Americans buy nice cars, and are advised to run premium gas in them.... when they don't need it.  It's all about compression and avoiding detonation.  THAT'S ALL HIGHER OCTANE DOES.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When I purchased my Land Rover in 1999 it was placarded with warnings to run only 92 octane or greater fuel.  I did this to protect my investement.  Some months later I was reading an australian Land Rover site which said 87 octane or greater.  I asked the service manager at the dealership why the difference?  He said because Americans buying premium cars expect them to run on premium fuel.  He further stated that 87 octane would not hurt the car and I would notice little or no difference. What was the compression ratio on the engine? I only drive the thing, I don't know what makes it go. The manual doesn't say? That's a fine example of what happens.  Americans buy nice cars, and are advised to run premium gas in them.... when they don't need it.  It's all about compression and avoiding detonation.  THAT'S ALL HIGHER OCTANE DOES.

Exactly, it's all about the compression ratio.

Have a high compression ratio? High octane gas.

No high compression ratio? 87 will work just fine and high octane will do nothing at best.

Forced induction is another story, only because by using forced induction you're compressing the air (and thus heating it up) before it enters the intake. So it's already very hot going into the cylinder head, thus you need higher octane gas to keep the hotter air/fuel mixture from pre-detonating.

Quoted: Quoted: First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it. SGtar15 Why?  Your computer will just retard the timing.  You lose some power, but the car runs. I still buy premium, but you don't HAVE to. Plus, you could buy lower level and add octane booster

But it will only retard the timing when the knock sensor tells it to... eg. it's already detonating.

Use the lowest octane gas your car will handle with our knocking, its that simple.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: First of all, that all sounds like good info except for #4, avoiding premium gas.  If that's what your car calls for then you MUST use it. SGtar15 Why?  Your computer will just retard the timing.  You lose some power, but the car runs. I still buy premium, but you don't HAVE to. Plus, you could buy lower level and add octane booster But it will only retard the timing when the knock sensor tells it to... eg. it's already detonating.

Again, check the compression ratio.  Most of those fancy cars don't have high compression ratios, so switching to lower octane gas will do nothing.   The engine doesn't need to compensate timing to prevent detonation when there is no detonation.  

If the engine actually is a higher compression engine, then stick to the recommended octane level.  This is the only situation in which lower octane can degrade performance.  

Ok, here is the thing 99% of the cars on the road will run just fine on 87 octane. Any standard powered grocery getter, sedan, pick up truck, or anything else will run just fine on 87. If you have a high performance engine with lots of compression or lots of timing advance, you will need a higher octane fuel. That is the bottom line, putting 92 octane in a Maxima would be a waste of money and probably a detriment to the vehicle itself.

If you aren't sure what octane to use fill up with 87 octane and find a nice long hill on a hot day. Turn on the a/c and fill up the car or truck with your friends, if your car doesn't knock or ping going up the hill in the heat loaded down, you know you don't need a higher octane.

My car requires premium gas.  The computer controls the entire vehicle (including the throttle ), so if lower octane gas is used it will not hurt the engine.  I WILL however see a decrease in my fuel economy.  On one of the car message boards I frequent, they did a survey and determined the loss in fuel economy from using regular made the overall cost of fuel almost exactly the same whether you used permium or regular.  

Now, my '81 Trans Am also requires premium fuel ('69 400 motor, 11:1 compression), but there's no computer on that thing, so if I don't use the high octane stuff, it will more or less destroy itself with detonation.

And when I was working at a gas station as a teenager, they filled up the premium tank everytime they filled up the regualr tanks.  I don't think the recomendation that started this thread has any merit, the gas stations are set up for a higher volume of regular gas and to ensure rotation of their fuel stores

Quoted: My car requires premium gas.  The computer controls the entire vehicle (including the throttle ), so if lower octane gas is used it will not hurt the engine.  I WILL however see a decrease in my fuel economy.  On one of the car message boards I frequent, they did a survey and determined the loss in fuel economy from using regular made the overall cost of fuel almost exactly the same whether you used permium or regular.

I severely doubt that.  With higher octane in a non-high compression engine, the computer is compensating for the HIGHER octane... when it really doesn't need to.  Higher octane gas DOES NOT PROVIDE MORE POWER.  It does not burn more cleanly, and infact doesn't burn as well unless at higher temperatures, which you usually won't see in a daily driver.   Switching to lower octane and getting a loss in fuel economy is probably because of the driver.  

The forum you mention probably can't be taken as scientific evidence of lower fuel economy.  If you and I drive the exact same vehicle, but use different grades of fuel, we simply can't compare our fuel economy as evidence of difference in octane grades.  Our driving habits may be VERY different, and there are many factors that will affect the outcome.  

High octane in anything other than high compression engines is a waste.  

Quoted: Car makers spend million designing cars.  Don't you think that after all that research they know what gas is best for them? Yes, you will lose power with less octane, so now you have to buy more gas to make up for that? Or pay extra for octane boost?  STill no saving! In the mean time using LOWER octane WILL hurt your engine. SGatr15

Wrong on this one Sarge. If you don't have your foot in it, you don't need the extra power and will not use more fuel. As long as the car isn't pinging, nothing is being damange.

The reason manufacturer recommend premium fuel is so that they can quote a higher horsepower rating in their literature.

Quoted: Quoted: Car makers spend million designing cars.  Don't you think that after all that research they know what gas is best for them? Yes, you will lose power with less octane, so now you have to buy more gas to make up for that? Or pay extra for octane boost?  STill no saving! In the mean time using LOWER octane WILL hurt your engine. SGatr15 Wrong on this one Sarge. If you don't have your foot in it, you don't need the extra power and will not use more fuel. As long as the car isn't pinging, nothing is being damange. The reason manufacturer recommend premium fuel is so that they can quote a higher horsepower rating in their literature.

But premium gasoline doesn't get you more horsepower.  It only resists detonation.  

I'm going to put 87 octane in my Lightning now, becuase this article says that will get me better mileage!


Actually, I'd save a hell of a lot of gas money if I blew it up

Quoted:  I'm glad my truck runs fine on 87.

Same here.  I already have to pay $2.49 a gallon just for regular.

Quoted: I don't suppose the fuel sellers would be responsible if it turns out they put too much of some damn additive into the gas and ruined your injectors.

Not if it's an EPA required one, which many are...

Quoted: I had a Chrysler a few years back that said it needed premium.  I decided to skimp and put in mid-grade and regular.  After a couple years of this, I began having problems.  The throttle body and injectors needed replacement to the tune of $700. I have no way of knowing whether the gasoline caused that, but it's cheap enough insurance to use the recommended fuel.

NO, it was NOT the lower octane fuel. Premium is not any cleaner, less taxing on the fuel delivery system, or easier on the engine in ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. The ONLY difference is that premium has more octane in it. That's it. Nothing more.

And the ONLY thing higher octane will do is keep a higher compression engine from pre-detonation. Period. That's it.

So, in your situation, yes it was the gasoline that caused it, but not because it was lower octane. It was probably because the gas, your fuel filter, your fuel tank, etc. or a combination of all of those were dirty and clogged things, but NOT because it was lower in octane.

One thing to note, is that if you're the type of person that lets your car run almost empty every time you fill up, you're setting yourself up for a higher risk of fuel delivery problems such as this. This is because a lot of crap sits at the bottom of your fuel tank and will clog things if you constantly let it get down to where that's the only fuel left in your tank. It's not that you have to always keep it 1/2 full, just try not to let it get down to where the light comes on every time.

Quoted: My understanding is that Premium gas isn't any better than plus, it is just a higher octane fuel, and that if your car doesn't have high enough compression it woun't do anything for you anyway.

Correct, however as Sgt said, some cars DO require it...

I drive such a car (All GM 350 V8 cars since 1993 require premium. I don't know about the trucks)...

Also, your gas milage will SUCK if you use insufficient octane fuel...

Generally, 10:1 or higher compression -> premium only.

Quoted: Quoted: My understanding is that Premium gas isn't any better than plus, it is just a higher octane fuel, and that if your car doesn't have high enough compression it woun't do anything for you anyway. Correct, however as Sgt said, some cars DO require it... I drive such a car (All GM 350 V8 cars since 1993 require premium. I don't know about the trucks)... Also, your gas milage will SUCK if you use insufficient octane fuel... Generally, 10:1 or higher compression -> premium only.

I had a 94' GM truck with a 350 V8 and it ran on 87.

Altitude affects the need for higher octane also.  Where I live 85.5 is common even though the elevation is 2500ft.  Much of the state is 4000ft+  My 4.3 Chevy runs fine on this with 180,000 and no problems  

People posting are correct in that octane (a type of hydrocarbon fuel) resists detonation.  

87% means that the fuel is 87% octane and 13% heptane or some fuel that detonates easier.  This also means 100 octane is the highest you can have, above this the numbers are from other additives and is a performance rating.  

Personally my family has used STP gas treatement and we have had many vehicles +300,000 on the clock.  So it can't hurt.  Mostly I attribute the longetivity to religious 3000mi oil changes.   One S-10 of my fathers has 270,000 right now with all mobil 1 from new.  engine, differentials, chassis grease.  It truly runs like new.  It has had rear axles and seals replaced.  Intake manifold gasket ,and the idler arm replaced that is it other than routine maintenance.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My understanding is that Premium gas isn't any better than plus, it is just a higher octane fuel, and that if your car doesn't have high enough compression it woun't do anything for you anyway. Correct, however as Sgt said, some cars DO require it... I drive such a car (All GM 350 V8 cars since 1993 require premium. I don't know about the trucks)... Also, your gas milage will SUCK if you use insufficient octane fuel... Generally, 10:1 or higher compression -> premium only.

I had a 94' GM truck with a 350 V8 and it ran on 87.[/quot]

Compression ration in the LT1 is 10.5:1 It will run on 87, but not well, and with reduced milage.

I don't know what the ratio for a truck motor was, the above is based on the Firebird/Camaro motor...

Quoted: As long as the car isn't pinging, nothing is being damage.

Your car isn't pinging because the computer RETARDED the timing!


You don't use a timing light anymore, the timing gets set automatically by the computer.


Like everyone says...it's all about compression ratio.  Nothing else.  Low ocatane in high compression engines WILL affect perfromance and power.

ANd why would you send big bucks on a car just  to save .20 cents a gallon is gas anyways?  That's like shooting Wolf ammo  out of a match AR15 rifle at Camp Perry!


SGtar15


SGatr15

Quoted: I'm going to put 87 octane in my Lightning now, becuase this article says that will get me better mileage! Actually, I'd save a hell of a lot of gas money if I blew it up

So you spent $30+ k on a high performance truck that gets extreme(for a truck) horsepower.   It has all the cool gismos and doodads that make it look and go fast.
Yet you are going to use CHEAPER gas to save fuel economy??


WTF?????

ANd this is all based one 1 article?


SGtar15