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Posted: 10/19/2004 5:29:41 PM EDT
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:16:31 PM EDT
[#1]
Don't know where this post is supposed to go, so here goes....
As much as I shoot, I chose a Glock 26 for the price of rounds compared to the .40. 147gr Golden Saber does quite a bit of damage, and it's out of such a nice little pistol. Less recoil, nice tight, fast groups,ect. My wife has a .40 Sig and is getting a mid-size Glock in 9mm for christmas. In her case a .40 is just too much. Let the "one shot, one kill" commando's begin their attack..... |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:31:59 PM EDT
[#2]
no attack here but I do have the glock 27 and for me it shoots great but a finger extension is needed for strudy handling. very accurate, and that counts more than the size of the bullet. But always remember what Jeff Cooper says, if going to a pistol fight, make sure your caliber begins with a 4.
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:34:00 PM EDT
[#3]
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:36:27 PM EDT
[#4]
+ 37,026 This debate seems to go on and on and on. Can't we tack a few for future reference? |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:37:00 PM EDT
[#5]
I can solve this take one gun of each shoot yourself in the leg and let us know .My 9mm holds 15 rounds, after 135 mm's of lead you are dead
 any one will do
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:37:53 PM EDT
[#6]
A couple of either in the lungs don't really make a difference.
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:38:14 PM EDT
[#7]
The 9mm bullet that you're holding will penetrate more then the 40 because of it's BC. Neither will drop an Elephant in it's track so if I'm going with a handgun, all of which suck compared to a rifle round, let me have something that'll give me the most rounds in the mag, is the easiest to shoot and is the most available round on the planet, let me have a 9mm. The 9mm has killed more people then just about any other handgun/sub-gun round in history. Like it or not, it's been around since 1902 and it's still going strong. Only other round that comes close is the ol' .38Spl.
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:40:09 PM EDT
[#8]
 Tell that to all of the people who have died of gunshot wounds from 9mm, .38 Special, .380, .357 SIG or .357 Magnum |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:48:43 PM EDT
[#9]
.40 is a crappy comprimise round.
It's that simple. If you can't handle a real 10mm gun, then get a 9mm. That or get a .45. |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:49:32 PM EDT
[#10]
I've heard the 9mm is a better round than the .40 Short & Weak.
(Let's see if any fishey bites on that one!)  |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:50:28 PM EDT
[#11]
I heard Airsoft is just as effective, and much cheaper.
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:50:56 PM EDT
[#12]
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:51:13 PM EDT
[#13]
Billy bobs cousins brother once told me a 40 can blast through bullet proof glass and steel but the 9mm cant
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Posted: 10/19/2004 6:59:46 PM EDT
[#14]
Neat pics, I wish you could show one with FMJ's |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 7:07:03 PM EDT
[#15]
I agree. Nice addition, GotM4. |
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Posted: 10/19/2004 7:13:57 PM EDT
[#16]
Whats with them lips.
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Posted: 10/19/2004 7:23:36 PM EDT
[#17]
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Posted: 10/19/2004 7:39:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Well, that concludes the arguement. From the picture, it looks to me like the .357 SIG is equivalent to the .45ACP or even more superior. You hear that .45ACP lovers? 
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Posted: 10/19/2004 7:41:30 PM EDT
[#19]
i wouldn't want to get hit by either of them
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Posted: 10/19/2004 8:13:45 PM EDT
[#20]
Now what did Brouhaha say about this last time?
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:25:45 AM EDT
[#21]
That's because you're reading it wrong. The large "flowery" part of what you see is fratures in the gelatin due to the temporary cavity. In most types of flesh, this would not cause a wound, as most flesh is elastic (certain organs, such as the brain and liver, are non-elastic tissue, where temporary cavities DO cause damage, but they're a small percentage of the body). If you examine the PERMANENT cavity, you'd find that the amount of damage increases as the caliber/bullet diameter increases, and that bullets of the same diameter cause virtually identical wounds, even where you migh think otherwise (9mm vs 357Sig). Of course, the pictured rounds are all top performers in their caliber; if you picked a lousy load in a larger caliber, it may well be beaten by a good load of a smaller caliber. The point of this picture, though, was to show that, in the big picture, there isn't a huge amount of difference between calibers, but that where a difference occurs, it occurs as the caliber increases. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:28:14 AM EDT
[#22]
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:34:23 AM EDT
[#23]
Hasn't there been some complaints from our troops in the mid east that the 9mm isnt doing the job?
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:40:11 AM EDT
[#24]
Personally in a life-or-death situation I know I'd rather have the capacity advantages of 9mm, or ideally 5.7mm...The Five seveN has 20 round in a flush fit magazine, seems like the best defensive choice I can think of for hand guns other then 9mm.
Okay....flame away |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:50:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Get ready for all the dim wits to tell you "Ya only need one shot with a .45, A-huck huck huck...." They are the ones who know nothing of a real world shooting scenario. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 1:51:48 AM EDT
[#26]
I hope you're wearing your Nomex... The 5.7mm round from a Five-seveN pistol produces wounds nearly identical to .22LR. Yes, it penetrates vests, but creates TINY, ineffective wounds. The P90 is barely effective at extremely close range, and that's WITH several significant advantages: - longer barrel that gives more velocity and more penetration (7-8" max, woo-hoo!) - full-auto and low recoil allows the shooter to spray bursts at the shootee. - high mag capacity allows multiple full-auto bursts. Arming yourself with a Five-seveN pistol is like bringing a twig to a baseball bat war. There's a REASON why FN's sales to police are less than 20% of projected figures, causing them to reconsider selling the gun on the civilian market. Oh, and did I mention that the "practice" ammo they sell to civilians puts up even worse terminal ballistics than the "real" military ammo? Yes, the 9mm round doesn't do a great job for the military, but that's largely due to the fact that the Hague conventions limits them to FMJ, which is a lousy performer in any pistol caliber. It has NO bearing on the excellent performance of quality 4th-Gen 9mm JHP loads such as Winchester Ranger-T, Federal Tactical, or Speer GoldDots. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:32:22 AM EDT
[#27]
Bigger bullet = more mass = more nervous system shock = faster "knock down".
Bigger hole = faster bleedout = faster death. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:28:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Yep 9mm ball is a good penetrator but it's a poor stopper. Yes you'll bleed out eventually but much of the time you're just gonna put a 9mm hole is someone. A .45 using ball isn't really a much better stopper than 9mm. One of the things that gelatin doesn't show is how fast a particular load produces a stop. I don't think many of the so-called ballistic experts actually study this from real world gunfights. From what I hear the .357SIG and .45ACP produce the fastest stops. A stop does not always mean death but that the gun fight ended. A handgun is really a poor stopper regardless of caliber. If I knew I'm going into a gunfight a rifle or shotgun would be my first choice. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:28:43 AM EDT
[#29]
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Posted: 10/20/2004 3:46:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Doesn't .357 Magnum out perform, or at a minimum, equal .45 ACP in real world shootings? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:16:09 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:15:31 AM EDT
[#32]
The study found that the .357 Magnum was number one in one shot stops. This data was gathered from street shootings and at the time most police carried the .357 revolver. Now that most police officers carry 9's, 40's and 45's the numbers may show a different outcome. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:35:46 AM EDT
[#33]
The .357 is pretty potent, wait until DonS comes by to tell us that the .357 and 9mm are equal.
Personally I'd rather not get shot with anything more powerful than a water gun. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:39:29 AM EDT
[#34]
Part of the reason I chose .357 Sig for my carry gun is it's similarities with .357 mag performance. I would probably go with .40 today, but back then they were both fairly new calibers with limited ammo selection.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:43:58 AM EDT
[#35]
With the progression of ammo development, the 9mm isn't that far behind the rest in perfomance specs. I don't worry carrying 15 rounds of Cor Bon 115.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 5:45:00 AM EDT
[#36]
originally posted by TNFrank;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 9mm bullet that you're holding will penetrate more then the 40 because of it's BC. Neither will drop an Elephant in it's track so if I'm going with a handgun, all of which suck compared to a rifle round, let me have something that'll give me the most rounds in the mag, is the easiest to shoot and is the most available round on the planet, let me have a 9mm. The 9mm has killed more people then just about any other handgun/sub-gun round in history. Like it or not, it's been around since 1902 and it's still going strong. Only other round that comes close is the ol' .38Spl. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I heard and tend to believe that except for actual war the .22 rf has killed more people than any other round. all be it not one shot stoppers but dead non the less. is this just an urban myth? in war I don't know what round would be the biggest killer (probably .30 cal) but I do believe 9mm is up there somewhere. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:02:04 AM EDT
[#37]
England,Canada,Germany, Italy plus many others used the 9mm in WWII in both handguns and sub-guns. Now we even use it in the M-9 and M-11 plus in the MP5. I've never heard that about the .22 but I'd be willing to bet that it's killed more small game then any other round and probably has more rounds expended each year then any other caliber. As far as the 9mm's effectiveness with ball ammo, NO handgun round is effective with ball ammo, not even the 45ACP. With ball the 45 will log about a 65% one shot stop percentage. Not very good in my book. About the very best that you can do is a 125gr.,.357Mag out of a 6" bbl, then you'll get somewhere in the high 90's(97-98%) which is just about as perfect as you'd want. 9x19mm with proper ammo will get you in the low 90's(92-93%) which isn't too bad in my book. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:06:09 AM EDT
[#38]
The .22 LR has probably killed more deer than the venerable 30-30. It is also under rated as a round. Sure it's not a mag, it's not even big, but it's killed more people that you'd believe.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:23:30 AM EDT
[#39]
If you lean your head to the left and look at the picture it looks even better.
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:55:58 AM EDT
[#40]
What? No 10mm or .357 Magnum? |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 6:59:47 AM EDT
[#41]
Nah. The .357 SIG is just a crappy compromise round between a 9mm and a .40S&W. It's that simple. If you can't handle a real .40S&W gun, then get a 9mm. That or get a .44 Magnum. 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 7:07:53 AM EDT
[#42]
 COLT 1911A1 .45 ACP ALL THE WAY!!!Accept No Substitutes! 
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:15:33 AM EDT
[#43]
True.
Not necessarily true at all, and in fact there are many examples of where that would be absolutely false. It's just not that simple.
This is true, in its very simplistic way, but again, the details MATTER. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:43:18 AM EDT
[#44]
The studies you're referring to are from the early 80s, using data from the 60s and 70s. They're comparing performance from common police loads and calibers of the time, which were: - .38 Spl 148gr LSWC - .357 Mag 158gr SJHP - 9mm 124gr FMJ - 45 ACP 230gr FMJ You'll note that the .357 bullet was the ONLY hollowpoint design in common use. It was also the most advanced bullet design of that era, as it was the most commonly used caliber by police. The most important thing to understand is that this study is absolutely meaningless today. 30+ years of technology, and a sea change in law enforcement away from revolvers and into automatics, has completely changed the playing field. Today, all of the best bullets are designed for auto calibers, revolver versions of these bullets only rarely being made. And modern 4th-Gen hollowpoint designs are excellent performers, having penetration capabilities and expansion reliability that couldn't have been dreamed about 30 years ago. The facts are that the best 9mm, 357 SIG, and .357 Mag loadings give virtually identical performance, assuming that you aren't using a snubby .357 Mag, which robs much of that performance. While the .357 Mag has vastly superior ability as a hunting round, due to the larger case capacity and ability to use heavier bullets than either of the other two, that means nothing when it comes to combat performance vs. humans. IMO, if you're going to use .357" bullets, you're much better off with a high-capacity 9mm auto than 5 or 6 rounds in a revolver. And the fact that you have more good load selections in 9mm, as well as lower cost and greater availability, is just icing on the cake. -Troy |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:51:49 AM EDT
[#45]
Good info, very true. I'd take a .45 for the stopping power but the capacity of the 9mm is tempting. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 11:53:14 AM EDT
[#46]
Troy,
All I was asking is if .357 mag is at least equal to .45 in real use. I feel that is probably true, even using modern ammo in both guns. I could be wrong... Let me ask you this. If you had a choice of 9mm or .357 sig with the same number of rounds & same barrel length, which would you choose? Not considering the price of ammo. I personally want the best all around round for defense, and for that, I am willing to ignore ammo cost. I would pay double to get a 5% or 10% increase in performance. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 12:05:58 PM EDT
[#47]
The study was an example of junk science. It had multiple problems which rendered any conclusions worthless. Martin Fackler has shown that the important parameters with handgun ammo are: 1) sufficient penetration 2) larger bullet diameter. The second can also be achieved via bullet expansion, so modern 9mm JHPs do a better job of .45 FMJs, when they expand. But .45s expand too, so a .45 with JHPs is about as good as it gets in handgun ballistics. The 9mm, .357 SIG, and .357 Magnum are all about equally effective. Given that, the 9mm is probably the best choice of the three. If we were back in 1970 and JHPs were junk, I'd opt for the .357 using wadcutter or semiwadcutter bullets (or a .44 or .45). Flat nose bullets like wadcutters produce a bigger wound channel than round nose types. According to numbers provided on the Firearms Tactical Institue website, and my number crunching, a .357 with a wadcutter should come real close to .45 RN ball ammo in wound channel diameter . . . |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 12:08:24 PM EDT
[#48]
The .45 is better for defense against humans.
The 9 is the better choice than the .357 SIG. Same terminal performance, less cost, less noise, less flash, less recoil. The .357 SIG would be better for long range handgunning, or potentially for hunting, where additional penetration might be useful. |
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Posted: 10/20/2004 12:09:15 PM EDT
[#49]
So, velocity has nothing to do with it? The same diameter/weight bullet traveling at 2 different speeds has no effect?
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Posted: 10/20/2004 12:13:58 PM EDT
[#50]
And what about penetration through clothing? Still the same?
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