Anyone else think that the BOA shootout was a sorry excuse to arm LEOs across the country with AWs?  Seems every TV show that discusses AWs shows the BOA shootout and claims that criminals across the country are starting to use these weapons.  [rolleyes]

When Waco and Ruby Ridge happened, they didn't arm civilians afterwards.  

A full-auto rifle is not going to be very effective against someone shooting full auto ane wearing a protective vest. The way to go with this sort of situation is getting the perps pinned in with strategic blockades and then getting some snipers in opportune positions.

Aimed fire from a semi-auto AR would be MUCH more tactically efficient than "spay/pray."

Get down under the patrol car and shoot under it at their feet. That will limit their mobility.

-- Or we could Nuke'em . . .

When ever I hear about the BOA shoot out it just really makes my toe nail curl. Those officers were not properly  armed so what did they but run to the nearest gun shop. Gun shops that alot of people in Califronia wish to close. Then the waiting period that supposedly great for any other citizen is thrown out the window. Then they took rifles that the state government want out of the state. What a bunch of Hippocrits. If I owned that gun shop I would not given them the rifles. Or if the were just going to take them I would only give them the crappy 10 rounders. These are good laws for everybody except when we are being shot at.
Oh well just my 2 cents

Six

Like the Boy Scout Motto says:

Always be prepared.

The most ironic part about the shootout was that the local politicians tried to get the gunshop closed down, because they provided the guns without a background check or anything.

Kharn

I think the oposite of the BofA shootout.  None of the cops died.  Both badguys died.  I think that's a pretty good testament to training.  If this was the 60's or even 70's, I'd bet there would have been alot of dead cops and civillians laying around.  The quality of training and the tactics that go with it are what resulted in no loss of life for the police.  Sure, I think alot of things probably could have been done better, sitting in my armchair on Monday morning.  Compared to the FBI Miami shootout, the FBI screwed the pooch in tactics and got alot of agents killed.  

I don't really see a need for a full-auto, but I'm a supporter of the patrol rifle concept.  CHP has had rifles in their cars for decades now.  The local SD where I grew up in CA had ARs in their cars, and that was in the early 80's.  I think the AR is a great weapon for this application, and they should have them.  If they get the training to use it correctly.  I'm alot harder to convince about the full-auto deal though.

Ross

Why should I NOT be able to outgun these full-auto felons? I carry a gun(s) now for the same reason I did since before I was "on the job"; so that I can exercise the most precious of our civil rights: SELF-PROTECTION.

General Ourumov: Substitue "ordinary people" for "LEOs" in your above quote. Doesn't your statment ring a little like Sarah *cough-cough-wheeze* Brady?

I would stipulate that a select-fire weapon for ANY citizen would have to go hand-in-hand with the TRAINING and commitment neccessary to maintiain proficiency. This is imperative.

I will wholeheartedly agree that select-fire in the police setting has (appropriately) limited applications. But the debate about whether or not cops "need" select-fire guns is ludicrous. I don't want weapons pairity with the bad guys - I want superiority.

- That's what will allow cops to save our skins and allow us to sleep in our own beds tonight and not a hospital bed or a mourge slab.

P3[pyro][uzi]

The LAPD have been issued SA AR-15s, not M-16's.  I think they should have those INSTEAD of shotguns.  More accurate, less chance of injury to civilians.

I remember reading in the paper that LAPD was being issued semi-automatic M-16s by the National Guard.  These were only being issued to the...  I can't remember the official name, but it was the watch commander, supervisor, or some other type of experienced position.

[heavy] [pistol] [pistol] [pistol] [pistol]

[puke]

A sergent on each shift.  I believe you are right, M-16's with the FA parts removed.

MM: the m16, on the history channel tonight said after BofA the lapd got 600 surplus m16s. proly national guard, as they were old style with triangular handguards.

General Gavnohead.... The Hollywood shootout illustrated the grim reality of dedicated criminals demonstrating the ability to procure and use contemporary weapons and protective systems to foil law enforcement counter actions.

It is not an excuse to up arm the police.  Rather it is a superb example of the police reacting after the fact to a need long recognized by people that know what they are doing.

I think your foil cap is slipping off again.  I recommend duct tape.

I have a question for all of you. If you were sitting in your house and you started hearing the gun shots or you saw it from you house or on TV live. Would you grab your AR-15 and offer your rifle or your assistance?


Six

Initially when the department received the rifles via Pendalton, only properly trained field supervisors (sergeants) were allow to deploy'em.  After protests from the troops, all properly trained field personel were issued an M16A1.  On any given watch, you might have two or three available in each division (precinct).

Although the rifle has semi and auto markings, the selector switch cannot be set to the full auto position.  NICE rifle though.  Noticably lighter than the hbar.      

sixgun .357....hell no

There's no reason the average LEO on patrol should not have a semi-AW if they want one any more than there is for the average citizen if they want one.  I've lived in the vicinity of the North Hollywood shootout since I was a little kid, and the LAPD was lucky that B&B was the closest gun store.  They have a lot better stock than just about any other store around, as we all know from the prices they charge.  I think that firearms from B&B didn't make any difference to the situation though.

I wouldn't hand an LEO my AR to use if it happened outside my house.  Aside from it being illegal because of RR/SB23, I wouldn't trust them to not ruin it and fail to do the job.  I would volunteer to use it myself in support of them, as I have the knowledge and the skill to use it properly, without ruining it.  Of course one must fight fire with fire, so I'd use my HK91 instead.  Hey, they were using a 91.  Heck, for superiority I'd grab my Garand with some AP.  The Garand/AP setup would have made Swede-Cheese out of that white Volvo.

If there was shooting near my house, I would not go outside.  I would charge my AR, put on my vest and kevlar helmet and hide in the closet until it was over.  Why? Even if I did everything perfectly, I would likely be sued into the poor house, and live the rest of my life broke in a Salvation Army shelter.  After all, the evil criminal is a "victim" of society.

As a matter of policy, I would rather see the police armed with pump action shotguns.  They are more versatile (beanbags, slugs, etc.), and less expensive.  I question whether all officers would be properly trained to use an AR, but a shotgun could be included in their less than lethal training procedures.  I would agree that perhaps it would be helpful to have a limited number of officers trained and issued ARs.

The history of LE is full of historic turning-point moments...incidents such as Miami and North Hollywood are important because they highlight the shortcomings in police training and equipment.
 Agencies went to rifles because they are better than the shotgun for many situations, and admin types got the mesaage that "it could happen here".
Really though, it was LE going BACK to the rifle, a weapon they'd caried for years until the beginning of the 20th century, when the shotgun became the dominant LE long gun.

Think HEAD SHOT

Why shouldn't they have the best thats out there? you probably have a so-called "AW" if you're posting here, do you offer protection to the people of your community without question?
If the pd here wanted to mount Browning M2s on top of their cruisers, I'd offer to help link up cartridges for them.

The last time I read my Constitution, the Right to Keep and Bear Arms did not exclude Law Enforcement Officers.
Why shouldn’t LEOs be able to exercise the same rights that all have?    
The juvenile urge to restrict the exercise of rights by others must be countered here even more than in other venues.    

The cops would have been better off being armed with a 30 cal., Bolt Action Rifle with a low power scope.

A lot of the cops were sending a lot of bullets towards the perpetrators and not hitting anything.

I think this was mainly due to the fact that the borrowed AR15's were not properly sighted in.

Is'nt one of the cops that got hit now sueing
H&K for letting on of the "deadly Military grade
assualt weapons" make it to the black market.
Of coarse the attitude of the cop was that H&K marketed these weapons to underage gang bangers
to start with.Oh,well just never heard how it turned out.

I get sick of about the North Hollywood shootout
is this every freaken time they want to ban a gun they bring up the shootout every criminal
out there has these guns, BULLSHIT! here in Decatur, IN. where i live(i moved to burn) there was guy (my wife's family knew) blew a state trooper away with a Fully automatic AK47 i guess he had one in every vehicle he owned. well there were no cries we need to ban them here. california is just too Screwed up for me.
well when B&B guns loaned out AR15's kindof pissed off the politicians now there banned this
made them look really bad to the world we had to armed the cops so now they puchased surplus
M16A1's and banned your AR15.

One more important point iam going to make is
why the hell the sniper's did not take them out
i have the video of it there were sniper's in place and no one took a shot ??????? why?????

My argument was arming ALL LEOs with AWs.  And in case anyone misunderstood, with AW I'm referring to assault weapons, no automatic weapons.  I have no problem with SWAT or a senior LEO having one.  The problem I have is with all the dipshit rookie cops using them.  I've read of far too many incidents where a cop emptied two clips from his pistol and only 2 of the rounds hit.  Then you hand them an AR that will reach several hundred yards before hitting the ground?  No thanks.  I don't think the BOA shootout demonstrated the need for LEO AWs either.  If they had been allowed to use slugs, they would've knocked their ass down in no-time. [:D]

>>Why shouldn’t LEOs be able to exercise the same rights that all have? <<

Sure, but its going beyond that.  In the last couple years theres an alarming trend of wanting to better arm LEOs while taking away the same right from civilians.

>>Why should I NOT be able to outgun these full-auto felons? <<

That's exactly what I'm talking about.  There's this attitude like this happens all the time.  BOA was ONE incident.  Many LEOs act like they run into this stuff 10 times a day.  How often does any officer ever run into a criminal wearing body armor and emptying full-auto AWs at them?  BOA and the 1986 shootout with FBI are about the only incidents I can think of.  And even in the '86 incident, it was the FBIs fault.  They should've gone in with a SWAT team, especially knowing what they were up against.

Bill294, you sound like one of the typical morons on MSNBC spewing their BS.  It was a simple question, and I didn't start this thread to have people calling me names, just because they disagree with something.

MG_ME, I noticed that too.  The patrol officers got the weapons from B&B, but in the end, SWAT is the one who took them out.  But I believe one of the snipers took out the first guy just as he committed suicide.  On some videos of the shootout, I also noticed how some LEOs were armed with ARs, but they stayed behind buildings and didn't shoot back. [?]

If we can have an AR, I see no reason why they can't. But, only if WE can own them. No sense in sending our cops out with worse arms that we have.


Aviator [img]www.dredgeearthfirst.com/aviator.gif[/img]

General:

How many times does it take??

I'd bet my paycheck you would better prepare yourself if you thought you might be out gunned in a potential shooting situation.

Keeping the shotguns - why yes - two is better than one - shotgun an AR.

AR's IMHO are almost the perfect police weapon.

American police have been behind the curve, weapon wise for several years now.

General - Why do you want police inadquately armed?

For me. I fully believe in the Boy Scout Motto.