fixed handle or removable?

I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.

Quoted: Buying a BM 16" M4A3 profile with all the evil features.  Is this too much to pay?  Rifle is brand new.  Yes, I could build my own, but am going this route.  Maybe next time I'll build one.

MSRP on most Bushmaster rifles is about $1,000.

Quoted: I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price.

And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same.

Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.

Quoted: Quoted: I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price. And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same. Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail.

I never called him a crook, I think that it is a bit of a rip-off, but that is only my opinion. I refuse to pay retail on lots of things, I also don't mind haggling, I have never paid sticker price on a car, do you? My gripe with that dealer is that he is completely unwilling to discount a penny below MSRP, even though me and him both know that he is asking more than that rifle should sell for in this area. There are probably people who will buy it at that price, but he is screwing himself, instead of having his nut tied up in that one rifle for months he could sell at a lower margin and generate a lot more sales over the same time period that that rifle collects dust on his wall, he is holding out for a couple of hundred bucks, when he could move merchnadise and make a hundred bucks on rifles he sells once a month, but instead he is going to make a $200 hundred dollar profit on a rifle his money has been tied up in for three months.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think $850 is a decent price, not a steal or anything, but not overly high either. If the dealer takes care of you and treats you well, that is not to much to spen for that rifle. There is a dealer here that wants 999.99 for a plain jane Bushy carbine (A2 upper with 16" barrel), A2 stock, and it is a post ban, he is not willing to budge by a penny, and acts like he is barely breaking even at that price. And what would be the retail price of that rifle on the Bushmaster website? I bet they are the same. Only in the gun business is the dealer a crook or rip off for trying to actually sell at retail. I know where this guy's coming from. The dealers that act like MSRP is barely 10% above cost are full of it. I dunno what the markup on firearms is, but in the music biz it is as much as 50%. I would suspect guns to be at least 20-30%. You tell us what the average dealer markup is (and don't tell me it's 15% either ).

Well MSRP is about 20-30% but actual markup (the price one can actually get) is more like 10%.

Quoted: I never called him a crook, I think that it is a bit of a rip-off, but that is only my opinion. I refuse to pay retail on lots of things, I also don't mind haggling, I have never paid sticker price on a car, do you? My gripe with that dealer is that he is completely unwilling to discount a penny below MSRP, even though me and him both know that he is asking more than that rifle should sell for in this area. There are probably people who will buy it at that price, but he is screwing himself, instead of having his nut tied up in that one rifle for months he could sell at a lower margin and generate a lot more sales over the same time period that that rifle collects dust on his wall, he is holding out for a couple of hundred bucks, when he could move merchnadise and make a hundred bucks on rifles he sells once a month, but instead he is going to make a $200 hundred dollar profit on a rifle his money has been tied up in for three months.

1. I didn't say you specifically called the guy a crook.

2. A car is the usual RIDICULOUS provided example. On a $40-50,000 car 10% is a HUGE PROFIT. One a $400 rifle it is $40.00.

3. As far as being unwilling to compromise prices, how much of a cut in pay are YOU willing to take? Do you own your own business? Would you let your boss tell you he is reducing your pay by .50 cents an hour without bitching?

4. Guns are NOT bread, everyone doesn't need one and daily sales are not constant. In a small gun shop a dealer may only make one sale a day. And in light of that $200 in profit really isn't shit. And I know you are gonna say sell cheap in volume, but guess what? Never happens. If the dealer lowered his prices $50 per rifle he wouldn't sell any more guns than he already is, he will simply lower price expectations and profits.

Every new FFL thinks he is gonna undercut everyone and own the entire market. Problem is there are 5,000 other FFLs with the same idea. They end up fighting over the small market and competing for bread crumbs. Bottom feeder guns stores are the first to go under unless they are also a pawn shop or something that generates revenue. Bottom line is if a dealer wants to stay in business (and do things like pay his bills and eat) he has to try and make money. Bills don't pay themselves.

I wish some of you guys would run your own business for at least a year for perspective. You would be a lot less inclined to tell a dealer what he should be charging. Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge.

Quoted: let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.

The $860 price mentioned is for a brand new rifle.

Quoted: Quoted: Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge. Those two statements contradict each other. I tell a business what is a fair price by whether or not I choose to patronize them.

There is a HUGE difference between not paying a price and telling a dealer he is overpriced.

For example I might think you are an overpaid moron (not you specifically just an example) but that isn't the same as TELLING you you are an overpaid moron.

A dealer charges what he needs to operate a business. There is no contradiction. There is only right and wrong.

Quoted: Quoted: 2. A car is the usual RIDICULOUS provided example. On a $40-50,000 car 10% is a HUGE PROFIT. One a $400 rifle it is $40.00. I'm not getting into the argument of what is "fair" for a business owner to charge.  Businesses SHOULD charge whatever the market can bear, and there's no such thing as "fairness" in the free market.  I've got no beef with that, and you'll never hear me complaining about someone's prices.  I got legs - if I don't like it I'll go elsewhere. But - the car example is eminently salient - there's nothing ridiculous about it. It's not a question of HOW MUCH the profit margin might be - it's a question of whether there are other industries out there where the manufacturing company posts a "formal" MSRP, but none of the stocking dealers actually charge the consumer that.   A regular consumer doesn't buy the car directly from Ford, just like the regular gun-owner doesn't buy a rifle directly from Bushmaster.

The difference between the car and gun example is ability to maintain a profitable, self sustaining business.

If guns sold in the same price range and volume as cars THEN you would have a fair comparisson.

But let me wrap this up easily.

How many of YOU if you owned your own business that soley provided for you and your family would appreciate people telling you that your prices are too high. It is exactly the same as your boss telling you he is gonna cut your pay. I'm certain 99% of you wouldn't stand for it.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price. The $860 price mentioned is for a brand new rifle. and? isn't bushies msrp like 1100 for a new a3? i've seen new rifles for as low as 800 usd and as high as over 925 usd. 860 usd is a decent (not great, not shitty) price.

My error, I though you said used, not usd.

Quoted: let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price.

You're kind of cutting it close with those comments.  Especially when conversing WITH a firearms dealer.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Now as a consumer you can buy it or not buy it, that is YOUR decision. But you shouldn't tell any business owner what is fair to charge. Those two statements contradict each other. I tell a business what is a fair price by whether or not I choose to patronize them. There is a HUGE difference between not paying a price and telling a dealer he is overpriced. For example I might think you are an overpaid moron (not you specifically just an example) but that isn't the same as TELLING you you are an overpaid moron. A dealer charges what he needs to operate a business. There is no contradiction. There is only right and wrong. More apples and oranges. Me telling a dealer that I think he is overpriced is NOT the same as me telling a dealer that he is an overpriced "moron". One is personal, the other is a statement of opinion that might be more communicative to the dealer than simply not buying his products and him never knowing it. We have plenty of business people in my state who think what they sell is gold and that if they don't sell it at their ridiculous prices, there's just no market for it at the time. I personally don't bother telling dealers they are overpriced -- not my way. I just walk out with my cash. But someone doing it in a non-insulting way is not an asshat in my book. There are as many asshat businessmen as there are customers.

OK try this. Telling a dealer he is overpriced is the same as me telling you that you are not worth your salary. Would you appreciate it?

And if you owned your own business would you appreciate your customers trying to dictate your profits?

Quoted: Quoted: let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price. You're kind of cutting it close with those comments.  Especially when conversing WITH a firearms dealer.

If I took everything said about gun dealers on this forum personally I'd have flipped out years ago.

I can only try and offer perspective.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: let's not have this get out of hand, we already know most gun dealers suck. 860 usd is a decent price. You're kind of cutting it close with those comments.  Especially when conversing WITH a firearms dealer. If I took everything said about gun dealers on this forum personally I'd have flipped out years ago. I can only try and offer perspective.

True.  However, I just warned two people the other day who insulted / attacked S_H and he turns around and dishes right back out.

Maybe your right, and no I don't own my own business, I am a contractor who has to negotiate his pay at the begining of every project, so yes I know how pricing works. I have been paid a hundred dollars an hour for work when I had specific skill set that was in great demand, I have been working for less than twenty an hour lately because that is what the current market is paying for what I do. Do I bitch about the money? No,that is how it goes, sometimes you make great money, other times I barely break even after covering my expenses.

I don't expect a dealer to sell me something at true cost, because he has to make a living too, but I am not willing to give businesmen who refuse to price competetively. This particular dealer is not a gunsmith and if you bring a gun that you bought from him back broken, he tell you to take it to somebody else, or call the manufacterer, he will scalp you just as hard on any other purchase you make from him, but you expect me to give him more money than the competition because he is trying to make a living, so am I, so is everybody else.

I have seen cheap watches at walmart with MSRP on the packaging with prices in teh hundreds of dollars, but the actual store price is 9.96, am I getting a good deal? MSRP is just that, and in most industries they set thier MSRP far higher than they believe the market value to be, so that thier distributors have some room to make a profit while giving the customer a sense of value. If this dealer had a rare or hard to find rifle then he could reasonable ask whatever he wants for it, but the truth is that there are other Bushmaster dealers in teh area who are not only willing to sell for lower prices, but offer good customer support on what they sell.

Do you really feel that you are owed a living because you have an FFL? do you really feel that charging full MSRP and refusing to provide any service after the sale is a doing me a favor? I am not saying that is what you do, this is what this particular dealer does, and you are defending him. I stated that I think that the price was decent on the rifle that started this thread, I mentioned that it could be bought a little cheaper, but that if the dealer was worth a shit, and somebody who supported thier customers that I would be happy with that price. I was giving a contrast to a dealer who was selling a lesser rifle at a higher price, and offering no extra value over and above the initial purchase of the rifle. If you buy a 999.99 Bushy Carbine from this local dealer you will be getting service no better than WalMart, yet without the discount prices WalMart offers.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There are many stores in my rural area that try this stuff. I call one of them the "museum". They never sell any guitars. They DUST them a lot. On the other hand, my friend's store has a lot of turn-over. He says he's not in the business to dust old crap and be a housekeeper. The local gun dealer I use only charges $10 over his cost - even lets you browse his vendor catalogs.  Or if you're doing a transfer, he only charges $10 for that. I'm a CPA, and work with a lot of businesses, and was wondering how he made a profit at those rates.  He then held up a 3-inch stack of 4473's - and said that was last week's sales.  In the meantime, another local dealer went out of business this week with a lot of dusty inventory....the one who charged $1500 for SAR-8s, $1100 for ARs, etc. Oh come on!   $10 doesn't even pay for his time to fill out the paper work. SteyAug is right - guns are a fairly INELASTIC market.  Lower prices don't equal increased sales, for the most part. Face it - if that Kimber 1911 is $900 or $990, I'm still going to buy it and I'm still only going to buy one at a time.

If the guy is the ONLY game in town and owns the market it is possible. But at $10 per transfer he's need to do 3-4 per hour minimum to stay in business.

Quoted: WTF?!

Check your IM.

Quoted: Maybe your right, and no I don't own my own business, I am a contractor who has to negotiate his pay at the begining of every project, so yes I know how pricing works. I have been paid a hundred dollars an hour for work when I had specific skill that were in great deman, I have been working for less than twenty an hour lately because that is what the current market is paying for what I do. Do I bitch about the money? No,that is how it goes, sometimes you make great money, other times I barely break even after covering my expenses. I don't expect a dealer to sell me something at true cost, because he has to make a living too, but I am not willing to give businesmen who refuse to price competetively. This particular dealer is not a gunsmith and if you bring a gun that you bought from him back broken, he tell you to take it to somebody else, or call the manufacterer, he will scalp you just as hard on any other purchase you make from him, but you expect me to give him more money than the competition because he is trying to make a living, so am I, so is everybody else. I have seen cheap watches at walmart with MSRP on the packaging with prices in teh hundreds of dollars, but the actual store price is 9.96, am I getting a good deal? MSRP is just that, and in most industries they set thier MSRP far higher than they believe the market value to be, so that thier distributors have some room to make a profit while giving the customer a sense of value. If this dealer had a rare or hard to find rifle then he could reasonable ask whatever he wants for it, but the truth is that there are other Bushmaster dealers in teh area who are not only willing to sell for lower prices, but offer good customer support on what they sell. Do you really feel that you are owed a living because you have an FFL? do you really feel that charging full MSRP and refusing to provide any service after the sale is a doing me a favor? I am not saying that is what you do, this is what this particular dealer does, and you are defending him. I stated that I think that the price was decent on the rifle that started this thread, I mentioned that it could be bought a little cheaper, but that if the dealer was worth a shit, and somebody who supported thier customers that I would be happy with that price. I was giving a contrast to a dealer who was selling a lesser rifle at a higher price, and offering no extra value over and above the initial purchase of the rifle. If you buy a 999.99 Bushy Carbine from this local dealer you will be getting service no better than WalMart, yet without the discount prices WalMart offers.

1. No I am not owed anything. But my FFL is not community property, nobody is entitled to dealer price and that is why "I" maintain a FFL to provide a living. But I am not owed a living anymore than YOU are because you are a contractor. Do you really feel that you are owed a living because you have an contractor?

2. For clarification I have NEVER gotten MSRP. I just don't fault ANYONE for trying. If dealer A won't sell at a price you want go to dealer B. Just don't be surprised if Dealer B doesn't stay in business very long.

3. There are people like you describe in all types of businesses. But only in the gun business (as far as I've seen) to people feel compelled to try and bust their balls. When I call a plumber I don't try and get dealer price on parts plus a $10 transfer fee. I also don't balk at the per hour service charge. I either hire them or I don't.

But if it makes you feel like you are shopping at Wal Mart I'd be more than happy to put a $1,800.00 retail price tag on a Bushmaster rifle and sell it to you half off.

But here is the real funny part. A guy who will buy a gun at 10% above dealer, which he considers a "fair price" will suddenly become very aware of current retail values when he goes to sell it one day. If you offer him even what he paid, 90% of the time he will balk and incredulously aks you if you know these sell for over $1,000 new.