User Panel
Posted: 9/30/2004 10:25:44 AM EDT
Something like that sure would be handy considering the Iran situation. Build the sucker to penetrate deep into earth and rock and packed so full of high explosives that it would create one hell of a shock when it exploded underground. The current 2,000 and 5,000 lb bombs could probably eventually punch through far enough to do some damage. But it would take a shitload of them dumped on the same spot to have an effect. This Iranian facility is supposed to be 75 ft down, has 9' thick steel reinforced concrete walls and rests on springs. It'll be a bitch to take out.
What we need is a 10,000, 15,000 or even a 20,000 lb class weapon with similar deep penetration characteristics of the bunker buster bombs. Considering the size of such a weapon, I am not even sure our heavy bombers would be able to employ it. The bomb bay doors would likely be too short. But I'm sure we could rig up a big old cargo plane like the C-141, C-5, C-17 or even a 747 of some type to act as a bomber. Backed by air cover and SAM suppression, such a large plane could make it's way into Iran and knock the hell out of something. But instead of making it a parachute drop, make it freefall and drop the bastard from high altitude. Just one or two weapons of this type might accomplish in one or two drops what it would take hundreds of regualr bunker busters to do. So, could we create something like this? |
|
Seventy-five feet of hardened soil seems like an aweful lot to go through for such a large device. I wonder how many feet of soil a normal bunker buster can go through. I know they can go through multiple reinforced concrete walls like a hot knife through butter, but what about when you have that much earth on top of them?
|
|
|
One of the advantages of the bunker buster is that it is very heavy, and it is very thin in diamater. The MOAB is just too big around, and will encounter way too much resistance when trying to going through reinforced concrete.
|
|
'Bunker busters' may grow to 30,000 pounds
U.S. Air Force seeking deep impact on hard-to-reach targets From Barbara Starr CNN Washington Bureau Wednesday, July 21, 2004 Posted: 4:44 AM EDT (0844 GMT) WASHINGTON (CNN) -- It's just an idea on paper, but the U.S. Air Force is asking defense contractors how they might develop a 30,000-pound, precision-guided bomb that could destroy targets deep underground, in caves or in hardened bunkers. Air Force officials said the proposed weapon, called the Massive Ordnance Penetrator, would be substantially larger than the current penetrating bomb -- the GBU-28, a 5,000-pound weapon. Military officials said the most likely use of such a weapon would be against underground targets such as those found in North Korea. The Air Force initially considered the development of a 30,000-pound penetrating bomb before the Iraq war, but funding and technical challenges stifled movement. After the invasion, Air Force weapons experts examined several bomb sites in Iraq and learned targets could not be fully destroyed using the current inventory of conventional weapons. However, Air Force officials said they are uncertain whether the concept of a bigger bomb can be brought to reality or that there would be available funding. The Air Force concept calls for the bomb to be deployed on B-2 or B-52 bombers. The weapon would be guided by use of Global Positioning System satellite coordinates. Engineering obstacles must be overcome, according to Air Force officials. One challenge would be the need to carry two bombs on an aircraft to keep the plane stable in flight. Both bombs probably would need to be dropped at the same time for the bomber to maintain level flight, officials said. Air Force officials said the bomb's structure would incorporate some type of heavy alloy that would make up most of the weight, allowing it to penetrate the target. An advanced or "smart" fuse also would be part of the system, so that detonation would occur only after the bomb reached the target, they said. The Air Force said it is prepared to spend $11 million on weapon design and demonstration, with testing possibly beginning in 2006. This bomb concept, informally known as the "Big Blue," differs from the Massive Ordnance Air Blast, a 20,000-pound weapon packed with 18,000 pounds of explosives. The MOAB bomb is designed to explode above ground for destruction of widespread surface targets such as troops and tanks. |
|
I've seen some ideas with basically a super accurate ICBM with a single warhead. Doesn't need too much explosive 1000lbs or so as the impact would cause alot of damage at reentry velocity.
|
|
Is there a cumulative effect of multiple strikes with penetrating type warheads? I've wondered why we just don't hit the same point with staggered, successive waves. Seems like we have the accuracy to hit to within meters on a repeatable basis.
|
|
Yep, that's what I'm talking about right there! Too bad such a design will only reach test stage by 2006. That'll be too late to stop Iran from going nuclear. Damnit. Hell, by then the only thing that needs to be left of that freaking underground site is elbows and toenails. I dunno how we can take that sucker out. But it's gotta be done. Ground forces may have to be used in some capacity. |
|
|
You can't beat a hot war for speeding up military developments!
How long did it take the P-51 mustang to go from pencil to Japan again? 8 months? |
|
Isn't the MOAB a FAE, and thus unsutible for 'busting bunkers'? The British did use huge conventional bombs dropped from modified Lancasters to destroy targets that survived other bomb raids during WWII. They worked by creating a huge crater and shock wave in the ground. I do not know if a new 'Grand Slam' bomb would take out the facility you describe though.
Hoppy8420 |
|
I'm not talking about using the already available MOAB. Again I said "MOAB type weapon". In other words we need a big ol' bomb the size of the MOAB but built to perform like a bunker buster. Sure, we already have the Daisy Cutters and MOABs. And yes the MOAB is GPS guided. But it isn't designed to accomplish missions like taking out deep underground facilities. We desperately need such a weapon and we need one as soon as possible. |
|
|
I said MOAB as it is a GPS guided weapon, not that it's a "bunker buster".
|
|
|
Not quite correct, you mean "pencil to Luftwaffe" it was designed to a British Specification and was in combat service with the RAF for nearly a year before the USAAF, who ordered it reluctantly… The Senate Special Committee to Investigate the National Defense Program (better known as the "Truman Committee", after its chairman Sen. Harry S Truman of Missouri) was given the task of investigating the system under which military production contracts were awarded during wartime conditions. They looked specifically into the reason why the Army had sat on its hands for so long before ordering any examples of the Mustang, an airplane which had such demonstrably superior performance. First RAF combat deployment: The first Mustang I operational sortie was on July 27, 1942. Mustang Is participated in the disastrous Dieppe landings by British commandos on August 19, 1942, where it saw the first air-to-air action. During this operation, pilots of No 414 Squadron of the RCAF were attacked by Fw 190s. An American RCAF volunteer, F/O H. H. Hills, shot down one of the enemy, which was first blood for the Mustang. First USAAF combat deployment… March of 1943, a batch of 25 F-6A/P-51s were assigned to the 154th Observation squadron at Oujda in French Morocco. This was the first US Mustang unit. The first mission was a photographic coverage of Kairouan airfield in Tunisia on April 10, 1943. Andy… I love of Mustangs… |
|
|
It is a tactic used… 'burrowing' down through a target. Andy |
|
|
Don't forget that the USA used the junk Allison V-1710, and that the P-51 did not come into its own until either the Rolls Royce Merlin or the Packard-built Merlin V-1650 was installed.
|
||
|
Haven't we been developing a nuclear bunker buster? I recall some talk about such during the Afghanistan campaign. Planerench out.
|
|
Very true! See! the British did something VERY right in WWII… gave you one of the finest fighters of WWII… Andy |
|
|
Yes but its based on the B-61 H bomb. Minimum yeald is c300 tons. This is smaller, the idea would be to trap the explosion totally underground. B61 is too big for that. Of course, why we don't use graphite coated Tungstin rods carried up by a Minuteman if you REALLLY want to get in somewhere.... |
|
|
Congress yanked funding for the project in August at the request of the Air Force.
It's already been R & D'ed, I think the T & E part is the hold-up.
|
|
|
Good info guys. Thanks! |
|||
|
That sounds like a useful idea. I like it. Stuff a tactical nuke into a regular bunker buster hull and drop that bastard. Being it's a tactical nuke, you won't have to be that concerned with fallout anyway. And since it will explode underground, that really takes away any such worry. But the power of such a weapon would likely render Iran's facility into a pancake. Me no think even 9' walls and springs will save the facility if a nuke detonation occurs right over it's ceiling. Then we can always claim it was a super penetrating MOAB or something. |
|
|
Until, of course, someone actually takes the time to go to the site and measures the residual radiation. |
||
|
Well, it is a nuke facility. I would expect to find radioactive material down there. Hell, if this is an issue, drop them from a B-2 and keep it covert. Never even claim to have attacked. Make everyone think the Iranian site just went kaboom on it's own. There's ways of dealing with things like this. Besides, it doesn't bother me one bit if we openly used a tac nuke on such a facility. In fact, it might be a good thing. We need to show we are willing to use our weapon advantages to deal with threats. It might teach a few of these scumback puke third world nations not to fuck with us. |
|||
|
I don't think we will have to take care of Iran. I think Israel will will. If I remember correctly, I read on ARFCOM that Israel bought or is buying some bunker busters from us. I think they will take care of the problem just like they took care of Iraqs years ago.
|
|
We really need a space-based system. I wonder how far a big iron ball can penetrate when dropped from space?
GunLvr |
|
I appreciate your zeal, but the fact is that all fissionable material leaves a distinct signature that can be traced back to the source. So unless we created a bomb out of Iran's fissionable material, the breadcrumbs would lead right back to Oak Ridge, TN. Not that I have a whole lotta problems with that. |
||
|
Google "Rods from God". Space based KE ground penetrators. |
|
|
The anti-nuclear lobby is terrified that people will find out that a small nuclear bomb can do the job of a very large and awkward conventional bomb and without the enviromental backlash. Either because the bomb goes off underground OR the bomb is simply so small there is not enough material left after fission "conbustion" to severely contaminate anything, most of which would be contained by dozering the surrounding couple hundred meters of topsoil into the crater itself after the war.
|
|
someone's been reading The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress by Heinlein eh? |
|
|
A GPS guided billet of solid chrome vanadium steel, 40,000lbs in weight dropped from 50,000ft by a B1B would leave a mark… I reckon it would go though a lot of concrete and earth… Gravity is your friend!
Andy |
|
I don't know where the idea came from that fissionable materials can be traced to their production source AFTER they have been detonated. Before perhaps but not AFTER. The UK made one attempt at "marking" a nuclear device in a test in Austrailia in 1958, it failed. You can tell from the fall out how "cleanly" a bomb detonated and then make inferences on the quality of material and construction but you CANNOT pinpoint a source. That is fiction. |
|||
|
This is true, the makers plate will be hard to read after the 6,000,000 degree fireball… Andy |
|
|
MOAB is not compatible with that mission, it is designed for use against troops in the open... The problem with your concept is that the bomb would be uncontrollable... A rack full of 5,000lb penetrators will eventually do enough damage to break thru, they'll just have to send 2 or 3 B1s to deliver the goods... |
|
|
|
BigDozer66 |
|
|
We're already working on deeper penetrators, AND a penetrating bunker-buster armed with a very low yield nuke warhead. And on top of it all, with regards to the Iranian nuke program - don't have to destroy the facility - just bomb the access points / doors / elevator shafts. And KEEP bombing them at regular intervals, until the mullahs are toppled. Same for the main reactor they are going to use to create their Plutonium - the cooling system / turbines are HIGHLY vulnerable to technology that is already in the field. Same for the reactor containment itself. The reactor isn't hot yet, the actual fuel isn't slated for delivery by Russia for almost another full year. We have exactly that long to destroy the reactor without spreading radioation all over the place. And John F'in Kerry has already said that giving the nuclear fuel to Iran would magically be a GOOD idea, and achieve 'Peace'. |
|
|
Doesn't this assumes that 100% of the fissionable material is consumed in the explosion. All US produced plutonium is recorded by isotope makeup. If any plutonium traces remain after the explosion would not the same isotope ratio remain? Serious question here, because I was under the impression that US source materials could be traced (before or after explosion). <-- Woohoo: 762! |
|
|
How 'bout sending a B2 upgraded to drop 80 500lb. bunker busters and we just GPS "postmark" all 80 for a 10 meter spot in the ground, maybe in 10 second intervals?
|
|
[ no centrifuges Posted By rayra:
This is a point a lot of people keep missing… nuclear processing needs electrical power… lots of it! You just need to take down the infrastructure, specifically the power grid… no electricity = no centrifuges. Andy |
|
|
Next time try reading the entire post....
|
|||
|
No, transmutation occurs from the neutron bombardment that causes the fission reaction. Elements form in a nuclear reaction that did not exist in the bomb. They are not their beforehand and scattered like in a chemical explosion. If we captured nuclear fuel for a bomb, we could tell if it was ours or Russian or European. But if its made by someone in their back yard, we could not tell who made it only who DIDN"T make it. And after a explosion, the fallout is determined by how well the bomb functioned, not by what was in the fuel. Other than poorly enriched fuel would generate more fallout than high quality enriched fuel. But a badly put togeather bomb with high grade fuel that partially "fizzles" would leave a high quantity of waste too. |
||
|
I gotta be bluntly honest here. Who cares if they do trace down the source? What would be a better situation? Destroy the Iranian underground nuke facility and delay/prevent them from developing nuclear weapons? Or do nothing (or fail) and then in a few years we are tracing the source of a massive explosion here in the US that kills hundreds of thousands to Iranian materials? Frankly, I'll take the former scenario any day of the week over being PC.
If a tactical nuke will guarantee the destruction of this site where other weapons may fail, then drop the son of a bitch. Better them than us (or the Israelis). -CH |
|
Reminds me of Project Thor, an idea from the 60s: Think "Flying Crowbars From Outer Space". Essentially, orbiting weapons launchers that dispense steel bars of considerable size and weight, equipped with a basic guidance and maneuvering system. Pieces of railroad track impacting the ground at something like mach fifteen. Ouch. Have we got any C-141 Starlifters left, or have they all been retired and chopped up by now? If we have some left that are retired but could still be made flyable, equip them with remotely controllable, GPS guided autopilots and fill them chock full of explosives. Fly them into the target. It'd make one hell of a bang. Bunker DUSTER. And a fitting, full-on combat death for a proud warhorse that served us well for many years. (They're being retired because they're just used up. They're hitting their airframe design lifespan of 50,000 flight hours. Further use of them would prove to be unsafe, and there's no retrofit for a plane whose entire structure is fatigued out!) CJ |
|
|
The MOAB isn't an FAE. It's a normal, conventional high explosive. |
|
|
Unfortunately, the B-1B can't even get close to 50K... |
|
|
dont need too
its a ballpark bomb just aim in the general area, its dead |
|
Wouldn't a micro-nuke bunker buster have a hell of a thermobaric effect as well?
|
|
The GBU-28 (made from an 8in howitzer barrel) can go down over 100ft. They were used in Gulf War 1.
|
|
www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=274819 |
|
|
Depending upon how far apart they are staggered. If they are staggered too tightly, the blast from one could throw off the next. Too far apart and you'll have to plow through rubble caving back in from the first hit or even worse, the high value targets in the bunker may have time to get out. Additionally, the really expenisve part of each bomb is the guidance package. When a bomb cost 100,000 dollars the breakdown is probably something like 10k on the bomb casing and explosives and 90K on the guidance package. I'd rather spend that money only once or twice rather than 20 times to dig down to the same target. |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.