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Posted: 9/29/2004 11:31:48 AM EDT
I am reading a book called "where the birds never sing" Jack sacco
anyways it talks about going through basic during ww2 it didn't seem very strict no drill sgt types. I was just thinking maybe with the huge amounts of kids joining up during WW2 they weren't that tough on them possibly because it was the first time away from home? I'm sure its probably different if you were infantry but they were signal. |
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It was different but it was a different climate-lots of older draftees, a fairly small professional military, etc. Generally the older types don't put up with the BS stuff very well and it would have backfired on them had they employed the "shock" tactics of todays Basic training.
But that doesn't mean they weren't tough and trained. |
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so your saying you have a bunch of 25 year old MEN and you start screaming at them and being a jerk all day they probably are going to get pissed off and just head home. |
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Pretty much. A lot were older, too, but they weren't generally assigned to infantry units. Even now the Drills treat the older guys differently. Not any more easily, but there's a tangible difference. of course, the older guys usually don't need a boot up their ass to get shit done, either. |
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Go watch Band of Brothers Episode 1. I would not want to run Mt Curahee in 50 minutes, personally. Especially not in leather boots. |
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My dad was 31 when he was drafted into WW2; he said that the DI's didn't treat them all that bad. |
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That was not regular basic, that was training for an Airborne unit, wich back then meant specialized training as well as jump school. The techniques used for training recruits today have really not changed much since the early sixties. The methods used today have been perfected to have maximum effect on 17-20 year old young men, who often have never been on thier own, and have also often never had any real responsibility to themselves or anybody else.
My grandfather was in his thirties when he joined for WWII, he was sent to an Infantry unit as a medic. I think the average age of an infantryman in WWII was about 26, the movies have given us all an image of the teenage boys going off to war, and that was certainly the case for many, but the majority were older. |
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Not having been military , I may not know a damn thing.
Having said that, I do have to believe the times will have a lot to do with the different mentality of recruits. Remember that the average age of a soldier in WWII was in the mid 20's.... Now thinking of it in terms of today, isn't really comparative. The average male was already married, had children, and a career by that age. Without much of a doubt, much more mature for their age, than people of today in the same age range... Times were a lot tougher back then having come out of the great depression only a few years prior. Even teenagers were working their asses off to get by and were much more mature, having lived through the depression and knowing the value of a dollar and hard work. The mentality was very different than today' youth..... Bearing that in mind, I'd hazard to say that draftees were much more responsible, motivated individuals than most 18+ year olds that enter the services today.... Now that's NOT to say today's recruits aren't matue, etc.... Far from it. It's just that in these times, things come a lot easier to kids, and it reflects in their maturity and life experiences, so please don't misread my feelings on this. I have the utmost respect for any service member and hold them in the highest regard as I have several military friends myself. Also, you have to remember, we were attacked by japan, which brought us into WWII.... Any time you have one military power attack another, you're going to have a wave of angry, motivated patriotic individuals line up to sign on the dotted line, looking for blood... I'd say that combination of patriotism and 'pissed-offedness' is what MADE so many outstanding soldiers, sailors, etc. And in that line of thought, would perhaps make it "easier" to get through tough situations... one of which would be basic training. Not to mention how much they busted ass after getting overseas and into combat.... Motivation is an interesting thing.... can make the toughest tasks seem trivial....... But also you have to figure in the sheer numbers of men needed during the war... It really is unfathomable..... And the necessity to get those men trained adequately was also offset by the need to get them OVER THERE, in a usable time frame.... In times of war, priorities get shifted, and necessarily so... I'd be willing to bet that many WWII era veterans would agree that today's soldier has much more set on his plate in comparison with what they themselves, were required to accomplish before being tossed into the fire... The need back then was much more urgent, and on a MUCH larger scale when you think about it... Now, that's just my take on it..... I've always been a bit of a WWII buff and like to think I have and make educated conclusions/opinions on the whole affair.... But again, I'm not a vet, So I may be way off.... Though I'll never admit it haha |
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USMC training was supposed to be incredibly tough in WWII.
GunLvr |
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USMC trainning has always been tougher than the other branches... Maybe less so NOW, but it is still tougher.
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That is the word I got from my Grandfather...especially how they taught ppl. to swim. |
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War changes things......The last few years are bringing in an influx of combat hardened DI's to the drill field who know damn well most of thier recruits that graduate will be in comabt overseas within 6-12 months of graduation from Boot Camp (reservists included).They're going to do what they have to do to make sure they are ready.Trust me.
Semper Fi, |
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More than 1 ww2 Marine has told me that he thinks the younger generation is trained a LOT better tahn they were during the war. BTW, for a while, USMC boot camp was a lousy 6 weeks. Remember, the every generation thinks they had it the roughest........ |
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Excellent post JB69,
My father is a former SF Vietnam Vet. He says the training they recieve now is much harder than it was during the Vietnam war. I think that there might be a little too much emphasis put on physical strength. Do Navy SEALs or Delta need to be able to bench 400lbs or do they need to kill, train, speak languages and deal with the people? Sure it's important to be strong and have good endurance but we don't fight hand to hand or with swords anymore. I think tactics and the ability to do the job is the most important. We need smart soldiers able to deal with locals, know the culture train them win their minds. This worked with the Montagnards in Vietnam and with the locals in Afghanistan. We don't need guys who could enter a powerlifting competition. |
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Thanks And I'd think that the 'bench pressing 400 lbs' bit of which you speak, is merely the guys' own thing, not a .mil standard... least not to THAT extreme.... Strength and endurance are VERY important, especially so in any manner of 'black ops' cadre, Hell, In ANY manner of combat ops...But you ARE talking about a buncha testosterone machines to begin with I have NO doubt that these hard core sumbitches want to be as conditioned as they can possibly be ! After all, pretty much EVERYTHING is at stake if you cant hang.... Guessing I'd do the exact same if I was in their shoes... give me EVERY possible advantage over the BG's.. |
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Quoted:
Excellent post JB69, My father is a former SF Vietnam Vet. He says the training they recieve now is much harder than it was during the Vietnam war. I think that there might be a little too much emphasis put on physical strength. Do Navy SEALs or Delta need to be able to bench 400lbs or do they need to kill, train, speak languages and deal with the people? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't know who you have been talking to, but I have never heard of such a requirement. The emphasis is on endurance, stamina and mental toughness. Anybody who told you benching 400 is a requirement is pulling your leg. You need to bench about 70 lbs- hundreds of times. (pushups) Seals and other SF types, are skinny wiry types- runners. The bulky Ahhnold guys tire out quickly. |
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My father was also in the USMC during Vietnam and he has said from what they show on tv now of basic that it was MUCH worse back then. The DIs would literally beat the crap out of the recruits and PT was horrible as well. Marines still train harder than other branches today, but I dont think its as bad as it used to be. I think today's marines are probably trained better though. For the special forces part look around at the pics of SF guys and most of them are not that muscular. They just have A LOT of endurance and mental toughness. |
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As others have mentioned, WWII-era soldiers (which were a high percentage of draftees, with lots of twenty-somethings) were largely used to tough physical work. A much larger percentage of people lived in rural areas, and farmwork was common. Even those that lived in the cities typically had physically demanding manufacturing jobs. Few people sat at a desk all day. So, back then, military training could spend more time teaching recruits how to be "military", and teaching them soldiering skills, without so much focus on PT.
Still, training was fairly poor during the WWII era for US troops, as we had a tiny military before the war, and the need to train SO MANY troops so quickly meant that there was little time for individual attention and few experienced leaders available to teach. During Vietnam, we had much the same problem. R. Lee Ermey, the guy from Mail Call who also played GySgt Hartman in Full Metal Jacket, was actually a Marine DI during Vietnam. He explained that because most of the trained Marines were over in Vietnam, there were very few people available for recruit training. He returned from a Vietnam tour to become a DI, and they had doubled the class sizes, shortened the training period, and cut the DI staff to 1/3 of the normal compliment. The DIs were told to get things done, period, no matter what it took. They were given a little more leeway when it came to "feedback" and punishments, in order to keep things expidited. As Ermey himself said: "Sometimes a smack on the head can serve the same message as a one-hour lecture, and no one had time for lectures." Training has ALWAYS been a problem. Only very advanced units get really great training, but I can say that training for everyone has improved a lot in the last few years, because everyone knows that practically everyone in uniform can expect to be rotated into either Iraq or Afghanistan, if they haven't already. And as bad as our country's training can sometimes be, it's STILL better than nearly any other country. -Troy |
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I don't know about WWII, but here's a little story I got firsthand about Marine Corps boot camp in 1950:
A guy I used to work for was a Marine in Korea. He said that his Drill Instructors were a Corporal and a PFC. They divided the platoon in two and put the groups at opposite ends of the field. The DI would tell one group, "Okay, I'm gonna throw you assholes the ball and if you don't get it to the other end of the field before those assholes stop you, I'm going to cancel evening chow." Then the DI would go to the other group and say, "Okay, I'm gonna throw those assholes the ball and if you assholes let them get through you with it, I'm going to cancel evening chow." There is almost nothing as motivating as food at Marine Corps boot camp. |
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I know it's not a requirement but it may be encouraged. I t hink this might be a SEAL thing more than SF. There was a chapter in one of Marcinko's books (I know, I know) that explained how huge his men were, what they could bench and what he required I think it was 250 or abouts I have to dig it up. Just a quick thought, look at the guys on combat missions, The younger guys were all huge, by huge I mean large framed not just in shape. The older guys were much smaller height wise. It's the same with cops around my area, they rarely hire anybody below 200lbs, average is probably 240. All muscle, I think the running is obviously important but is seems that too much time is wasted in the gym instead of in class learning arabic or pashtu. |
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No doubt regular boot camp was more abusive R. Lee Ermey mental style. Now they have time out cards and other PC stuff. But I doubt SF and SEAL physical training was more intense than now. |
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The time out cards are a myth. |
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Yes, the structure of the training was different. Through time and experience, the military units learned what it took to create a killer. You need to mold someone - preferably a young suceptible mind - by means of psychological stress and rebuilding of a confidence. A particular confidence, actually. If you'll notice some of the newer (1980's +) troops graduate Infantry school with a thirst for violence. Not random violence - but rage against all enemies of the U.S.
Those young Infantrymen come out of training wanting to fight...and have feelings of indestructibility. Feeling superior to your enemy and having the will to kill is key in creating an effective fighting tool. It just took a while to hone those training skills. That is not to say, however, that we did not have many brave men in WWII - quite the contrary. The numbers of heroes were countless. I attribute that to exceptional personal characteristics and the proud American upbringings of that era. We are, today, a better trained armed forces. |
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I went to basic in 92, when I got to Bragg all of the PFCs and SPCs who had went to basic a couple of years earlier told us how tought thier basic was, and how easy it was for us because we had time out cards (stress cards is what we were accused of having). We told them we didn't know anything about that, the only cards we were told to carry was a card with our general orders and the Code of Conduct printed on it, so we could study when we had an extra minute (although I don't remember many of those), but htey didn't want to believe us, every soldier has a tendnecy to believe that his boot camp was the toughest, and that it was harder serving when they did than any other period in time. While I was in Basic Iwould call home about once a week (the lines at the phone were huge, but I was determined), I would talk to my dad and he would tell me exactly what we were going to be doing that week (training wise, including the trash your barracks inspections), after basic I asked him how he knew so much (I knew he had spent a lot of time writing ttext books about training of soldiers while he was assigned to the WOCS at Rucker), he told me that no he hadn't written the schedule for basic, or any of the books the Drill Sgts are trained from, that he remembered how they did things when he had went through more htan twenty years before (at the height of the Viet Nam era). It was uncanny how accurate he was, he was almost always right, right down to the range number, and distance to march to it. OF course he went to the same training at Ft.Jackson as a private. |
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Keep in mind also the poor physical condition of a lot of draftees in WWII. The depresion caused a lot of malnutrion. Eisenhower started the Presidential Physical Phitness Award in the 50's to try and get Americas youth in better physical condition than they were before WWII.
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Post WWII, Basic Training in all services except Marines was horrible. Standards were low, discipline not enforced. We payed for it during the initial phases of the Korean War, TF Smith got jacked up. That is why Douglas MacArthur asked for the Marines. Training standards are somewhat cyclic, depending on world operations and conflict.
RLTW! |
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They also did true live-fire exercises, with men taking cover in foxholes as machine guns shot over them. There was an auther named Sledge who wrote a memoir of WWII called "With the Old Breed" and he was very critical of modern Army/Marine training. He felt that as dangerous as their WWII USMC training was it was better to lose a few men in training than many more on the battlefield. GunLvr |
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