User Panel
Posted: 9/23/2004 8:39:01 PM EDT
Werent the guns in waco registered MG, and peoplle point out that the 50BMG was never used in a crime, didnt they also use those in Waco
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Yes Im sure the government used machine guns. |
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+1 |
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LEGAL machine guns is the key. Basically it shows that law abiding citizens that jump through all the hoops to get one don't use them in crimes. A police officer used a department issued weapon in the one instance where a legally owned one was used. There have probably been hundreds of cases of illegally manufactured/converted machine guns used in crimes.
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I wanted to see how it played out first ETA i'll put it back |
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A far as I know, there were two instances of LEGALLY transferred and PRIVATELY owned MG's being used in crimes. One instance was a Cop who owned his own MAC to kill a drug dealer (in what was likely a dirty cop trying to rip off someone). Another involved a suicide by the owner of the MG (Must have wanted to do a good job). Not sure if there are any more, but most people aren't going to use a $3000 to $10,000 firearm (let alone the exotics running $50k or more) gun in a robbery, murder, etc, especially people who have gone through the extensive background and fingerprint work to be able to pay the transfer tax.
AFARR |
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The suicide doesn't count! |
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allright guys back to original post, The MG's that were used in WACO by the branch dividians were actual legaly registered machines guns, and the Barret 50BMG that was used was also legally purchased. The double meaning was the FBI's mg's were also used in a crime as well
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I dont recall ever hearing of auto or .50 fire coming out of the compound, I hear that it all went in. |
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I thought the 'illegal weapons' the dividians had were just some ARs.
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You need to do some more research. |
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from what I recall the .50 wasn't used, they found it still dissasembled in the case.
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Recovered guns at Waco
Guns Recovered at Brach Davidian Compound Guide Extra -- The following is from a "Memorandum to the Press" issued by Chris Peacock, Treasury Department Director of Public Affairs on July 13, 1995 showing a list of all firearms, explosives, and related material seized by Federal law enforcement officers following the April 19, 1993 assault on the Branch Davidian compound near Waco, Texas. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch Davidian compound. In addition, a number of live grenades and more than 300 grenade components were uncovered. Hundreds of thousands of rounds of ammunition were also seized. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms investigated David Koresh for conduct involving: the illegal manufacture of machine guns and the illegal manufacture and possession of destructive devices. The FBI report provides evidence that the Davidians' arsenal did indeed include weapons unlawfully manufactured. The weapons listed include semiautomatic firearms illegally modified to fire in full automatic mode, as well as grenades and silencers. All of these weapons were unlawfully possessed. I hope you find these documents useful as you review Treasury's report on ATF's role in events at Waco. WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY ILLEGAL WEAPONS RECOVERED Machine guns The FBI determined that 46 semiautomatic firearms had been modified to fire in full automatic mode: 22 M-16 Type Rifles 20 AK-47 Type Rifles 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 2 M-11/Nine The FBI also determined that two AR-15 lower receivers had been modified to fire in full automatic mode. Silencers 21 Sound suppressors or silencers Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades The possession of lawfully manufactured machineguns, silencers, or grenades requires the owner to register the weapon with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco & Firearms. None of the compound's residents were registered to own such a weapon, therefore it would have been illegal for them to possess these weapons. WEAPONS RECOVERED FROM THE BRANCH DAVIDIAN COMPOUND: TREASURY SUMMARY OF REPORT PREPARED BY THE FBI FOR PROSECUTORS AND THE TEXAS DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY TOTAL WEAPONS RECOVERED (Including Weapons Mentioned on Previous Page) FIREARMS Rifles and Rifle Components 61 M-16 Type and 2 M-16 Lower Receivers 61 AK-47 Type 34 AR-15 Type and 2 AR-15 Lower Receivers 13 Shotguns -- 12 gauge 11 7.62MM FN FAL Type 10 Mini-14 Type 7 37mm. Flare Gun/Launcher Type 6 .30 Carbine Calber US Carbine, Model M1 6 Assorted Rifles 5 M-11/Nine 5 M-14 Type 3 Galil 2 Heckler and Koch SP-89 1 Air Rifle 1 Heckler and Koch MP-5 1 Sten submachine gun Pistols and Revolvers 23 Beretta 13 Glock 8 Assorted Revolvers 6 Safari Arms 6 Assorted Pistols 5 Sig Sauer 5 Walther 2 Taurus EXPLOSIVES Hand Grenades 4 Live M-21 Practice Hand Grenades 100+ Modified M-21 Practice Hand Grenade bodies; the bodies of these had been threaded and plugged but lacked a main charge or fusing system. 11 M-69 Practice Hand Grenades; the bodies of these grenades exhibited indications of attempted modifications. 219 Grenade Safety Pins 243 Grenade Safety Levers Rifle Grenades 200+ Inert M31 Practice Rifle Grenades. FIREARMS ACCESSORIES AND PARTS Silencers 21 Sound suppressors or silencers. Flash Suppressors 18 Flash Suppressors. Firearms Barrels 17 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm) 8 M-16/AR-15 Type (9mm caliber) 3 M-16/AR-15 Type (.45 ACP caliber) 1 M-16/AR-15 Type (5.56mm) 2 Ruger. 22 Caliber 1 M-60 machine gun 1 12 Gauge Shotgun 1 Taurus, Model 92, 9mm pistol barrel 1 Sig Sauer 9mm pistol barrel Pistol Slides 1 Sig Sauer Model Revolver Parts 1 .38 Special caliber cylinder Bolt Carriers 39 M-16 24 AR-15 2 MP-5 2 AK-47 1 FAL 1 Unknown Bolts 15 AK-47 7 .22 LR conversion 3 M-16/AR-15 1 FN FAL (1) Bolt Assemblies 3 M-11/Nine 2 M-16 1 AR-15 1 MAC-10 1 Shotgun Recoil Springs and Guides 3 Glock 2 Sig Sauer 1 Beretta 1 M-11/Nine Stripper Clips 29 Stripper Clips Accessories 6 .22 LR Caliber Conversion Kits Hammers 31 AK-47 18 M-16 12 AR-15 4 M-11/Nine 2 Sig Sauer 1 Beretta Hammer Springs 3 AK-47 Buffer/Recoil Springs 36 M-16/AR-15 4 AK-47 Selector Switches 9 M-16 3 AR-15 1 Unknown Sears 1 M-11/Nine Auto Sears 8 AK-47 4 M-16 1 FN FAL Auto Sear Springs 12 AK-47 Disconnects 7 AK-47 1 M-16 Trigger/Trigger Mechanisms/Trigger Housings 17 M-16 6 AR-15 3 M-60 3 M-11/Nine 2 MP-5 2 Sten 1 AK-47 1 Heckler & Koch 1 M-14 1 Smith & Wesson 1 Beretta 1 Shotgun Ammunition Magazines 289 7.62 x 39mm AK-47 Type 248 .223/5.56mm M-16/AR-15 Type 108 Sten Gun Type 88 .308 Caliber FN FAL Type 72 M-14 Type 61 Beretta Model Type 92 58 .308 Caliber of Unknown Type 28 Ruger Mini-14 Type 22 .22 Caliber 17 UZI Type 16 USAS-12 Type 13 .45 Caliber 11 Glock 11 MP-5 11 Sig Sauer P226/P228 9 Unknown Type 7 .308 Caliber Galil Type 6 Walther PPK 5 9mm Unknown Type 4 .50 Caliber 3 .30 Caliber U.S. Carbine 3 .380 Auto Caliber 2 9mm Smith & Wesson 1 AK-74 Type 1 Grendel Ammunition Containers 220 Metal Boxes (Various Calibers) 15 Wooden Boxes (Various Calibers) 4 Buckets (Varioius Calibers) 1 Cardboard Boxes (Various Calibers) Magazine Springs 360 M-16/AR-15 42 FN FAL .308 Caliber Type 35 AK-47 28 9mm Magazine Springs of Unknown Type 15 Unknown 10 M-14 6 M-1 Carbine 3 .50 Caliber 1 Mini-14 Magazine 1 Glock These lists do not include dozens of other items recovered from the Compound such as dust covers, extractors, front and rear sights, gun cleaning equipment, bolt release levers, compensators, .50 caliber belt links and numerous other parts. |
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Well, certainly, you can bank on US government pronouncements about the Branch Davidians. |
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I just found that also, I guess I stand corrected but that is a shit load of firepower. But the MG's the FBI had were used illegaly too |
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SUBJECT: Weapons Possessed by the Branch Davidians In total, the Texas Department of Public Safety, led by the Texas Rangers, recovered more than 300 firearms from the Branch Davidian compound. If I recall correctly, the Texas Rangers were the GOOD GUYS. They left their perimeter posts for the FBI in disgust. Correct me if I'm wrong. |
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Ends that argument. |
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yeper |
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Except for the minor issue that there was an FFL (with, IIRC, an SOT) who lived at the church there. Our own ETH used to see Koresh and his folks as dealers at the Dallas-area gun shows.
Not that having a lot of guns is illegal, but most of these guns were INVENTORY for an FFL. -Troy |
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1) No, that is one of the violations that the ATF was there for: unregistered machineguns... 2) The 50cal was never used and never found (understandable given the fire, alot of things were probably 'never found')... It was simply alleged to be present... |
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Troy, they would still have to be NFA registered... They were not... They were therefore illegel... Having a SOT does not exempt you from registering NFA items... He would have been able to transfer them tax-free, but not make them without being a C2 and paying tax/registering each weapon... |
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According to these dumbasses, .50 BMG's have been used in a few crimes. Remember the source, however.
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Except they said something like "22 M16s" in the "illegal" category, and 60-something M16s in the "total" category ... so were those 40-some M-16s legal or not? |
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Dave_a? Which reason for the raid are you repeating?
The meth lab? which they got all the toys from the army with? The child abuse? which they got all the TV coverage with. The "illegal"guns? Which is a 200 dollar tax matter and does not deserve anyone being killed over. Just curous. |
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ISTR reading that this inventory was a result of ATFE's work, and they've never allowed anybody
else to look at their 'evidence' to get an impartial verification on it, or their allegations. Also that they (ATFE) had gone through the rubble, did their investigation, then leveled it all, w/o allowing any private investigations. Hmmmmm...... |
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This is the list of "crimes" the VPC attaches to .50cal weapons.
Criminal Use of the 50 Caliber Sniper Rifle "The simple fact is that .50-calibers have not been used in crimes," NRA spokesman Andrew Arulandam, Associated Press, August 18, 2004 In June of 2004, Marvin Heemeyer of Granby, Colorado, plowed a makeshift armored bulldozer into several buildings in response to a zoning dispute and fines for city code violations. Heemeyer armored his 60-ton bulldozer with two sheets of half-inch steel with a layer of concrete between them. He methodically drove the bulldozer through the town of Granby, damaging or leveling 13 buildings before taking his own life. Heemeyer mounted three rifles on the bulldozer, including a Barrett 82A1 50 caliber sniper rifle. ("Man who plowed armored bulldozer into seven buildings in Colorado is dead, authorities say," Associated Press, June 5, 2004; "Armored Dozer Was Bad to Go," Denver Rocky Mountain News, June 25, 2004) In February of 2004, Donin Wright of Kansas City, Missouri, lured police officers, paramedics, and firefighters to his home where he shot at them with several guns including a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Authorities discovered at least 20 guns, thousands of rounds of ammunition, and the makings of 20 pipe bombs inside Wright's home. ("Body is Identified in KC Gunfight, Fire," The Kansas City Star, March 30, 2004) In June of 2000, Robert W. Stewart of Mesa, Arizona, a convicted felon, was charged with felony possession of firearms for being in possession of Maadi-Griffin 50 caliber "kit guns" he was selling from his home, along with other firearms alleged to be in his possession. Stewart has become a folk hero among hard-line gun advocates and 50 caliber enthusiasts. He was distinguished, among other things, by his assertion that convicted felons have the right to possess firearms: "I don't care if he's a mass murderer, he killed 50,000 people. He still has a right to have a gun. A gun is just a tool." (MSNBC transcript, "The .50-caliber militia," http://msnbc.com/news, May 15, 2001) In April of 2000, convicted felon Wayne Frank Barbuto of Salt Lake City, Utah, was charged with attempting to sell two 50 caliber sniper rifles to undercover federal agents. The government believes Barbuto manufactured the guns himself. During a search of Barbuto's home, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) agents discovered more than 32 firearms and thousands of rounds of ammunition. ("Sandy Gun Dealer Charged by Feds," The Associated Press, May 5, 2000) According to the General Accounting Office (GAO), 50 caliber sniper rifles have been found in the armories of drug dealers in California, Missouri, and Indiana. A federal investigation in 1999 was "targeting the movement of .50 caliber semi-automatic rifles from the United States to Mexico for use by drug cartels." ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999) On March 19, 1998, following an undercover investigation, federal law enforcement officers arrested three members of a radical Michigan group known as the North American Militia. The men were charged with plotting to bomb federal office buildings, destroy highways, utilities, and public roads, and assassinate the state's governor, senior U.S. Senator, federal judges, and other federal officials. All three were ultimately convicted. A 50 caliber sniper rifle was among the weapons found in their possession. ("Prosecutor: Hate Was Motive Behind Plot," The Associated Press, November 18, 1998) Wisconsin father and son James and Theodore Oswald were sentenced in 1995 to multiple life terms for armed robbery and the murder of a Waukesha police captain. The two had "a small armory of sophisticated and expensive weapons, including two custom-made .50-caliber rifles powerful enough to assault an armored car—which the two were considering doing," according to the Waukesha county sheriff. ("Possible Links Between Robbers, Far Right Sought," Chicago Tribune, July 10, 1995) In the summer of 1995, Canadian officials in British Columbia found a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle, 500 rounds of ammunition, and enough explosives to fill a five-ton truck at a remote site. It is believed that members of a Texas militia group planned to set up a training camp at the site. Although at least one convicted felon was identified as a suspect, the investigation was dropped due to difficulties in prosecuting across international borders. The incident prompted one Texas Constitutional Militia official to observe, "We are not all raving maniacs. I'd kind of like to keep our lunatics on our side of the border." ("Arms Smugglers Won't Be Charged," The Vancouver Sun, October 26, 1996) On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995) Branch Davidian cult members at a compound in Waco, Texas, fired 50 caliber sniper rifles at federal ATF agents during their initial gun battle on February 28, 1993. The weapons' ability to penetrate tactical vehicles prompted the agency to request military armored vehicles to give agents adequate protection from the 50 caliber rifles and other more powerful weapons the Branch Davidians might have had. Four ATF agents were killed. ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999) On February 27, 1992, a Wells Fargo armored delivery truck was attacked in a "military style operation" in Chamblee, Georgia, by several men using a smoke grenade and a Barrett 50 caliber sniper rifle. Two employees were wounded. ("Two Armored Truck Guards Shot," The Atlanta Journal Constitution, February 27, 1992) In 1989, two members of a church in Gardner, Montana, who were part of what ATF has described as a "doomsday religious cult," were arrested and charged with federal firearms violations. The two suspects had purchased hundreds of firearms, including ten 50 caliber semiautomatic rifles and thousands of rounds of ammunition, using false identification. ("Weaponry: .50 Caliber Rifle Crime," GAO Office of Special Investigations letter, August 4, 1999) |
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Watch "The Rules of Engagement"
The AK that the BATFE stooge holds up at the hearings is one of the ones they claim to have "recovered" from the remains. It is SHOWROOM PERFECT. No rust, nice furniture, still shiny. They expect us to believe that a fire that completely destroyed a metal door somehow left that rifle untouched. Bullshit. |
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The only incident i am aware of with a 50BMG being used in a crime was a lovers triangle. 50 Cal shooter ambusehed his wife on her lunch break. This is the one I was thinkng of: On April 28, 1995, Albert Petrosky walked into an Albertson's grocery store in suburban Denver, Colorado, and gunned down his estranged wife and the store manager. Armed with an L.A.R. Grizzly 50 caliber sniper rifle, an SKS Chinese semiautomatic assault rifle, a .32 revolver, and a 9mm semiautomatic pistol, Petrosky then walked out into the shopping center parking lot, where he exchanged fire with a federal IRS agent and killed Sgt. Timothy Mossbrucker of the Jefferson County Sheriff's Department. Petrosky, who was known to his friends as "50-cal Al," fired all four weapons, including the 50 caliber rifle, during his murderous rampage. ("Authorities Investigate Gun Sale: Rifle Used in Albertson's Slayings Wasn't Illegal," Rocky Mountain News, May 1, 1995) It was featured promenantly on one of the tv news shows Dateline or 20/20. |
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Except that little statement in the Constitution called the 2nd Ammendment. They were legally possessed per the Constituion, but illegal according to the ATF and our present Government. |
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Except, no one other than a prosecution witness was allowed to inspect the supposedly modified guns. The defense was not allowed to do so to see if they had indeed been modified to fire FA. The BD's did have grenades, however. |
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Funny thing about the Waco firearms is that they never showed one of these burned up "machine guns" on TV...but why would ATF lie?
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