Looks like Remington is learing a thing or two from the aftermarket guys and the guys who actually use their stuff.  This newest version has a SHORTER LOP (1" less).  And you can also add ghost ring sights and SF fore end.  Very nice.  I was looking at purchasing a 12 from ScatterGun Tech or from a Vang Comp, but I think I might just go with this instead...

www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870pmax.htm

Sweet! I wonder what the price is?

Very interesting.   Now the question.......would it be cheaper to buy the new one or pick up a beater somewhere and add the good stuff to it?

Quoted: Very interesting.   Now the question.......would it be cheaper to buy the new one or pick up a beater somewhere and add the good stuff to it?

True, but I hate buying used weapons, unless I can verify its use/problem history.

It'll all depend on what they go for.  Plus I hate those pistol-grip stocks on shotguns.

Sweet. I love shotguns.

Good job, Remy.

Okay, let me admit first that I've not been to Combat Shotgun Training.  I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, but that is mostly for hunting and clay shooting.

My friend went to Thunder Ranch and took the Shotgun course.  He told me a lot of good stuff.

Clint Smith does not particularly like extended magazines on shotguns.  He teaches to keep the shotgun on your shoulder and load it with your left hand.  You shoot, then top-off the mag.

Since you keep the shotgun is on your shoulder, it gets heavy fast and an extended mag only makes it that much heavier.

Since Clint teaches to top-off the mag any time there is a lull in the action, extended mags are not needed.

All that said, this gun looks heavy to me.  I'd hate to keep it on my shoulder for long periods of time.

Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light.

Hmmm....good points.

Quoted: Okay, let me admit first that I've not been to Combat Shotgun Training.  I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, but that is mostly for hunting and clay shooting. My friend went to Thunder Ranch and took the Shotgun course.  He told me a lot of good stuff. Clint Smith does not particularly like extended magazines on shotguns.  He teaches to keep the shotgun on your shoulder and load it with your left hand.  You shoot, then top-off the mag. Since you keep the shotgun is on your shoulder, it gets heavy fast and an extended mag only makes it that much heavier. Since Clint teaches to top-off the mag any time there is a lull in the action, extended mags are not needed. All that said, this gun looks heavy to me.  I'd hate to keep it on my shoulder for long periods of time. Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light.

doesn't that get heavy?

Quoted: It'll all depend on what they go for.  Plus I hate those pistol-grip stocks on shotguns.

+1. They just look goofy. It might work if somebody'd make a SG with a straight receiver that'd take a straight/in-line buttstock.

Quoted: Quoted: Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light. doesn't that get heavy?

Exellent observation.

Clint says that a light may be a dire necessity, but extra ammo is not, since you can easily and quickly reload.

Therefore, the light, while an extra weight, is a good idea.  A lot of extra ammo, since it can be easily reloaded, is not.

Glad to see you're awake, old buddy.

So can we buy this shotgun now?  I assume so since it is USA made unlike the similar hk m4 shotgun, correct?


Iso

Bah!

We need more detachable mag fed shotguns.

Quoted: So can we buy this shotgun now?  I assume so since it is USA made unlike the similar hk m4 shotgun, correct? Iso

It woulda been fine anyway, it's a pump not semi.

Quoted: Okay, let me admit first that I've not been to Combat Shotgun Training.  I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, but that is mostly for hunting and clay shooting. My friend went to Thunder Ranch and took the Shotgun course.  He told me a lot of good stuff. Clint Smith does not particularly like extended magazines on shotguns.  He teaches to keep the shotgun on your shoulder and load it with your left hand.  You shoot, then top-off the mag. Since you keep the shotgun is on your shoulder, it gets heavy fast and an extended mag only makes it that much heavier. Since Clint teaches to top-off the mag any time there is a lull in the action, extended mags are not needed. All that said, this gun looks heavy to me.  I'd hate to keep it on my shoulder for long periods of time. Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light.

That sounds like a problem for training, but frankly it doesn't seem like you would be holding the shotgun up for that long in a real engagment.

On the other hand, it would be easy to jam up a shotgun while topping off. Of course, such training is supposed to deal with that, I suppose,

Quoted: That sounds like a problem for training, but frankly it doesn't seem like you would be holding the shotgun up for that long in a real engagment.

Good point.

But Clint's point is always, "But what if you do have an extended fight?"  If one shot stops the fight, you are finished.

But what if there are multiple attackers?  As Clint says, "Wolves travel in packs."

On the other hand, it would be easy to jam up a shotgun while topping off. Of course, such training is supposed to deal with that, I suppose,

My friend, Liem, says this wasn't ever a problem.  Manipulating the weapon sometimes produced problems (i.e., short-stroking an 870).  Reloading them didn't.

Except for the sights, that looks a lot like mine.

Quoted: Very interesting.   Now the question.......would it be cheaper to buy the new one or pick up a beater somewhere and add the good stuff to it?

I recently posted this over in the shotgun forum, but I will dupe for you good folks.

I bought the 870 HD synthetic with the +2 mag, a Surefire 618FA light, a 6 shell side saddle, a Spectre sling is in the mail.  I've got about $600 into it, which is probably less than what the MAX is gonna cost.

The gun is very front heavy, but, I'm a big guy so I don't mind.

I have had combat shotgun training, but... like I'm gonna contradict Clint Smith??? Nah, I'll pass.

Truth be told, I don't care what weapon system you are using.  It's only gonna be as good as your training.  

Make mine a semi-auto.

Quoted: [Good point. But Clint's point is always, "But what if you do have an extended fight?"  If one shot stops the fight, you are finished. But what if there are multiple attackers?  As Clint says, "Wolves travel in packs."

Multiple attackers could also argue for more rounds in the magazine. If you have to deal with a pack of six (six-pack?), a five shot gun is going to come up short if you have to top off (assuming they all attack like dedicated Zulus--in reality most of the pack would probably be approaching the next postal code post-haste).

My way of thinking about the problem is to think in terms of how much time would I have?. Then I think, how many rounds can I make good use of in that amount of time?. Then I select something that carries a few more rounds then I can make use of.

The reality is, a five shot shotgun would probably be enough for just about any given engagement. Topping off is likely the right answer (just because you finished an engagment doesn't mean you won't have any others--they might be regrouping for another try).

Quoted: My friend, Liem, says this wasn't ever a problem.  Manipulating the weapon sometimes produced problems (i.e., short-stroking an 870).  Reloading them didn't.

I know I once jammed my 870 Express topping off--and not while doing serious drills, either. Then again, I'm not exactly high-speed with a shotgun.

The nut who killed 21 people in the San Yasidro (CA) McDonalds did most of his damage with a Winchester Defender (according to the San Diego Sherrifs department forensics expert, he killed 4 people with his Uzi). He stopped using the shotgun when it jammed, and based upon the accounts I've read, he was topping off when it jammed (this is my interpretation of several newspaper accounts, I haven't seen any 'solid' accounts of why his shotgun jammed).

Quoted: Make mine a semi-auto.

no problem

Quoted: I actually hate lights in forearms on pumps. Ever actually use one in low light? You get a strobe effect. I perfer something like the Streamlight mount which is in front of the forearm and not attached to it. Not only can you use the same M3 light that fits your handgun it's doesn't move with the pump. Also a Streamlight mount costs about $25 rather than a dedicated forearm that costs as much or more than the host shotgun.

I hear you there man, especially since most of the time I grip the slide pretty tightly when I charge it.  The only ways I can think of to alleviate that problem is to a) use a barrel-mounted light like AUGgie said, or... b) use a gas-operated shottie (that doesn't have a moving forend light).

That strobing effect sucks, it also sucks when you just want to charge the weapon and your light blinks on momentarily.

mine

That is strange to see them come out with one with wilson sights on it.  I heard that a couple of years ago that they contacted everyone who was big on shotguns and asked them what features they would want on them,  Then proceeded to ignore everything they had heard people say by putting a shitty set of ghost ring sights on it.  I guess nobody liked them and apparently they didn't sell well cause here they are offering Wilson's sights.  

Quoted: Okay, let me admit first that I've not been to Combat Shotgun Training.  I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, but that is mostly for hunting and clay shooting. My friend went to Thunder Ranch and took the Shotgun course.  He told me a lot of good stuff. Clint Smith does not particularly like extended magazines on shotguns.  He teaches to keep the shotgun on your shoulder and load it with your left hand.  You shoot, then top-off the mag. Since you keep the shotgun is on your shoulder, it gets heavy fast and an extended mag only makes it that much heavier. Since Clint teaches to top-off the mag any time there is a lull in the action, extended mags are not needed. All that said, this gun looks heavy to me.  I'd hate to keep it on my shoulder for long periods of time. Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light.

Good point.

I once bought a Mossberg 590(?),military model with the shroud and extended mag...that thing was a friggin tank.I might aswell have been luggin around a Garand,soo....I sold it not long after I bought it.

I'm also with Norman74 on the stock issue aswell.Anything other than a traditional straight stock on a shotgun,just looks wrong.

Why are most combat shotguns pump action instead of semi auto?

anyone know how much the 870 police synthetic with the wilson sights (NOT the P-max... no light and regular stock not pistol grip) goes for? I'm trying to decide between that and an AK for my next purchase.

order number 4449 on the remington LE site

Quoted: anyone know how much the 870 police synthetic with the wilson sights (NOT the P-max... no light and regular stock not pistol grip) goes for? I'm trying to decide between that and an AK for my next purchase. order number 4449 on the remington LE site

Thats a simple choice.
AK-47. When you absolutely positively got to kill every motherfucker in the room. Accept no substitute.

Quoted: Those pistol grips feel awkward to me. I guess they might help with keeping the gun shouldered as you reload the tube, but my old hunting 870 feels better than my 590.

They are also inferior for weapon retention. I'd pass on a pistol grip setup. As far as I can tell pistol grips are popular because they are a result of trying to engineer a strait-line stock weapon that you can shoot. Like high-rise sights . . .

Quoted: Why are most combat shotguns pump action instead of semi auto?

That's a good question.

Pumps were more dependable than semi-autos in the past.  But not any more.  My Remington 1100 has never failed.

After the gun fight with the Simbonese Liberation Army back in the old days, the Los Angeles PD went to semi-autos because they found that working the slide on a pump exposed the police officers to gunfire when laying prone.

Pumps are cheaper nowadays.  That is the main reason for their popularity.  I have a Mossberg Maverick 8800 that I bought from Academy for $139.00.  I have it loaded and ready for the simple reason that a burglary when I am not home will result in a $139 loss instead of a $600 loss if I left an AR in the closet instead of the safe.  

An Ar15 is a much superior weapon for in-house combat than a shotgun.  That's a fact.  No emotion, just fact.

This shotgun comes with the ghost rings and Sure Fire forearm.  THe price is around $850 dealer!!  I wanted one until I was told that.

Bill3508

Quoted: Quoted: Why are most combat shotguns pump action instead of semi auto? That's a good question. Pumps were more dependable than semi-autos in the past.  But not any more.  My Remington 1100 has never failed. After the gun fight with the Simbonese Liberation Army back in the old days, the Los Angeles PD went to semi-autos because they found that working the slide on a pump exposed the police officers to gunfire when laying prone. Pumps are cheaper nowadays.  That is the main reason for their popularity.  I have a Mossberg Maverick 8800 that I bought from Academy for $139.00.  I have it loaded and ready for the simple reason that a burglary when I am not home will result in a $139 loss instead of a $600 loss if I left an AR in the closet instead of the safe.   An Ar15 is a much superior weapon for in-house combat than a shotgun.  That's a fact.  No emotion, just fact.

I was going to say, my 1187 has rarely failed me, and only with reloads. Obviously in a tactical environment one shouldnt be using reloaded ammunition of questioble quality. I suppose I can see the cheaper aspect, but honestly if departments are dumping money for AR's with little concern, why the hell would they flinch on buying a good shotty that still cheaper then an AR??

As for in house, I would say its debatable. Too each their own.

Ditto on the dependable functioning of my 1187P.  If it had ghost rings I'd like it better than my Benelli M1 S90 Tactical.

Quoted: As for in house, I would say its debatable. Too each their own.

No offense, my friend, but it is only debatable for those that do not know the facts.

Many, many threads have been written regarding this issue.  Never take a shotgun to a fight if a rifle is available.

As Clint Smith says, "Take a rifle if it is available.  If not, take a shotgun.  If a shotgun is not available, take a pistol."

And, "The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down."

There is no debate among the knowledgable.

Quoted: Quoted: As for in house, I would say its debatable. Too each their own. No offense, my friend, but it is only debatable for those that do not know the facts. Many, many threads have been written regarding this issue.  Never take a shotgun to a fight if a rifle is available. As Clint Smith says, "Take a rifle if it is available.  If not, take a shotgun.  If a shotgun is not available, take a pistol." And, "The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." There is no debate among the knowledgable.

I would say "it depends".  I have no delusions of ninja status.  If I absolutely think someone is in the house I let the pit out & grab the 870.  If the pit comes back happy, we go back to bed.  If she comes back bloody, we grab the Glock 19 and go investicating.  If she don't come back at all, I haul ass out the back door.

Who cares what the entertainment director of a gun dude ranch says?... oops, sorry, my flamethrower went off!

BTT, good for Remington.  The bean counters there looked at the bottom line, and finally realized that Benelli has been kicking their ass in the LE market.   Big Green had to do something to de-fossilize the good 'ole 1950's technology 870.  About the only 870s you see in training are old guns that have been in inventory for years (since in the 1950's they designed guns not to wear out)... when LE has been buying new guns, they get the Benelli.   Most of Remington's LE 870 sales are overseas (they are cheaper than the Italian smokepole when it's time for Upper Volta to buy SGs).

The 13" LOP Speedfeed pistol-grip full stock is the way to go on a serious tactical weapon, regardless of "looks".  Better recoil control, better one-handed control, better weapon retention, consistency in handling with the AR, etc etc etc.

If you are stuck with an 18" barrel, the extended mag is quite helpful.  The SG being a low-capacity, manually-loaded one-at-time weapon, the extra capacity is good - - you do't have to load it all the way up, and in fact you should leave at least one "space" in there.  Those that poo-poo the extended mag and advocate simply reloading your 4-shot from the shoulder while you are trying to maneuver... that's a neat range trick, you might as well stick to 5-shot mags for your M4 as well, to be consistent.

Ghost rings... not my cup of tea on a detachable-barrel weapon, but they are a helluva lot better than a bead or those ridiculous M700-style hunting "rifle sights" Remington used to put on their "combat" shotguns.

Surefire integral forend tactical light..... another mixed bag.  It's good point is that it is a light on the weapon... but that is about it.  Again, not my cup of tea... in a slide action weapon, it can interfere with a 3-point sling, and prevent the action from closing.  Bad timing.  It almost mandates a single-point sling, which has it's own issues.  In addition, if you didn't like the looks of the pistol-grip stock, or the extra weight of the extended mag tube, you should hate the forend light... it adds spades to both of those complaints.  I think it adds too much weight to the end of weapon, for my taste, and the weapon becomes difficult to control and handle, esp with an extra few rounds in the mag tube, and the 18" barrel.  Plus, the light is WAY below the barrel axis, and usually never indexes the beam with the sights, and the barrel obscures a good part of the beam.  Try taking a quick shot around/over cover at nite with that light - - you get a face full of beam-back.  To add even more to the stew, the pressure pads are problematical since they are located on the gripping surface that you need to REALLY grip to operate the weapon properly and quickly:  the end result that I've seen are guys actuating the light by accident while operating the slide.  Another "shoot me" signal.  Surefire provides lock-out cover plates to put over areas of the tape switches you don't want to activate, but while they work on other models requiring less manipulation of the unit (MP5, M$, etc), they pretty much stink and are ineffective in this format.

I'd rather put Surefire Millenium light on a forend rail mount (admittedly more $$$), or even a ITI M3X on the adapter mount with a pigtail (definitely less $$$).  Better beam distribution, less weapon handling interference.

But all in all, a worthy effort by Remington.  If you like the 870, and the accessories, you'll pay a lot more for basically the same package from cottage "scattergun" industry, so just buy from Big Green and keep the good folks in Ilion, New York employed.  Me, I'll take the benelli thank you, or if you insist on the 870.. a 14" barrel.

Quoted: Quoted: As for in house, I would say its debatable. Too each their own. No offense, my friend, but it is only debatable for those that do not know the facts. Many, many threads have been written regarding this issue.  Never take a shotgun to a fight if a rifle is available. As Clint Smith says, "Take a rifle if it is available.  If not, take a shotgun.  If a shotgun is not available, take a pistol." And, "The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." There is no debate among the knowledgable.

No offense taken! There is no offenses among friends.
But, I still stand by my first statement in that it depends. I think most would agree that very few guns give first shot assured incapacitation. So, I'll sacrafice some performance to gain mobility. I dont think anyone will argue a pistol is faster in a house then a shotgun or rifle due to the size.
But in the end, to each their own. I'll grab the Virginian Dragoon .44 Mag for my in house problems.

Quoted: Its more than possible for shotgun rounds to miss inside room distance. Its more than possible for even bird shot at close enough range to exit a dwelling. Effective 5.56mm/.223 rounds can be had that are highly unlikely to exit a human body. Effective 5.56mm/.223 rounds can be had that are very likely to disintegrate on contact with construction materials.

A few things bother me about those statements. Now, keep in mind as I say this I dont have much experience with a 5.56 so....

Isnt it safe to say bird shot wouldnt exit human body? It seems a bit strange to say a shotty will go through walls and say a 5.56 wont go through bodies. I would think neither will go through a body and both would go through walls.
To my next question. What rounds do they make that wont go through drywall? I wasnt aware of any round that wont go through drywall, so what do you mean by "contsruction material"? I cant see either birdshot or a 5.56 round going through a 2x4, although I can see both going through drywall fairly easily.

Again, not saying your wrong, just curious what 5.56 rounds are "made" for home defense and keep overpenetration through walls to a minimum.

Quoted: Quoted: As for in house, I would say its debatable. Too each their own. No offense, my friend, but it is only debatable for those that do not know the facts. Many, many threads have been written regarding this issue.  Never take a shotgun to a fight if a rifle is available. As Clint Smith says, "Take a rifle if it is available.  If not, take a shotgun.  If a shotgun is not available, take a pistol." And, "The purpose of a pistol is to fight your way back to the rifle you should have never laid down." There is no debate among the knowledgable.

I beg to differ.  There's plenty of debate and personal preference too.

The one thing the shotgun has going for it that the rifle doesn't is sighting.  When it is dusk, or dark, with or without a light, nothing beats looking down a beaded barrel.  I've tried ghost rings and all that jibba jabba, but was not that satisfied with the sighting ability in low light.  Nothing is as fast or easy, nor provides as clear a field of view as looking down a non-sighted shotgun barrel.  No dot sights on my HD gun for a plethora of reasons.

I found that the shotgun fits my needs best.

Mine is exactly the same...but I used a wilson combat magazine extension..I hate the way the mag extension protrudes out in front of the bbl

Quoted: When a room or trench has to be clear of everything living (unless its wearing body armor) a shotgun would be an outstanding choice in a military context. However, in the civilian world, that type of tactic is not an option.  You, as well as the police are responsible for ever piece of lead you send down range.  There is NO reason to not use a rifle instead of a shotgun in most cases.  Police agencies still hold onto them because they have some flexibility in being able to fire less-lethal bean bag and CS type rounds. Its more than possible for shotgun rounds to miss inside room distance. Its more than possible for even bird shot at close enough range to exit a dwelling. Effective 5.56mm/.223 rounds can be had that are highly unlikely to exit a human body. Effective 5.56mm/.223 rounds can be had that are very likely to disintegrate on contact with construction materials. Anyone that says rifles are too noisy to use inside and shotguns arent has obviously NEVER touched off a round of buckshot in a hallway. Rifles are normally lighter, shorter, better balanced, of higher capacity, easier to shoot, can be fired and manipulated one handed more easily, and can make precise rescue shots if needed. Of course many civilian cleve to the shotgun for "intimidation" factor - the old "all I have to do is rack it and they'll shit their pants." BS.  Welcome to reality.  You can make all the noise you want getting your gun ready, but thats not what intimidates an aggressor.  The man or woman BEHIND that gun that is showing a resolute will to use it is what makes them back down.  If the aggressor is the type that gets all quivery at the sound of a guage being racked, then they'd probably have the same reaction to a round being chambered in an AR.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: anyone know how much the 870 police synthetic with the wilson sights (NOT the P-max... no light and regular stock not pistol grip) goes for? I'm trying to decide between that and an AK for my next purchase. order number 4449 on the remington LE site Thats a simple choice. AK-47. When you absolutely positively got to kill every motherfucker in the room. Accept no substitute.

the problem is I havent been able to find any FFLS here who are willing to accept transfers of "no bans" for me yet. Even tho as per NYS law I am exempt from the state ban.

and I want a folder.


I have that AK quote on my cell phone

Yeah, but there's no bayonet lug.

Good feedback, fellas.  Thanks.

Why cant they get the pistol grip right?

what is so hard about making it look like this:

It is subtle but a huge difference

Quoted: Okay, let me admit first that I've not been to Combat Shotgun Training.  I am an NRA Shotgun Instructor, but that is mostly for hunting and clay shooting. My friend went to Thunder Ranch and took the Shotgun course.  He told me a lot of good stuff.  Clint Smith does not particularly like extended magazines on shotguns.  He teaches to keep the shotgun on your shoulder and load it with your left hand.  You shoot, then top-off the mag.   Since you keep the shotgun is on your shoulder, it gets heavy fast and an extended mag only makes it that much heavier.  Since Clint teaches to top-off the mag any time there is a lull in the action, extended mags are not needed.  All that said, this gun looks heavy to me.  I'd hate to keep it on my shoulder for long periods of time.  Other than that, I like the looks and especially the light.

What if there is not a lull in the action untill after you have killed the 8th guy?
I like shotguns with 7 or 8 rounds right now.  I also like the Davis speedfeed stock with the 4 extra rounds built in not that pistol grip monstrosity.  Looks like a nice shotgun just give me the 4 extra rounds in the stock.