Me, fighter pilot ----->    <------  Dems, boat driver



The point isn't to take anything away from our Navy guys and gals

GM

I'd say the jet, since there's three axes of movement. But what do I know? I'm an infantryman.

Jet fighter = aerial weapons platform

Swift boat = armed water taxi

Bush = jet pilot

Kerry = taxi driver

Jet pilot requires 2 years of flight training. You can train someone to drive a boat in 5 minutes.

Its way harder to fake medals in a jet fighter.

Quoted: Its way harder to fake medals in a jet fighter.

amen. You either complete a mission, or die. There are few pow's.

pretty obvious

Quoted: Its way harder to fake medals in a jet fighter.

Good one

GM

Quoted: Quoted: Its way harder to fake medals in a jet fighter. amen. You either complete a mission, or die. There are few pow's.

[skerry as fighter jock]Look. I got this blister on my thumb from the gun, missle thingy button. You know, that red one. Can I have a Purple Heart?[/skerry as fighter jock]

Quoted: Jet pilot requires 2 years of flight training. You can train someone to drive a boat in 5 minutes.

The USCG Surfman training program is 6 years, experienced boat drivers will still take 3 years of specialized training (average) to qualify as a Surfman...

You have to be an officer to fly a jet and there is no age or licensing restrictions for driving a boat.  A child can legally drive a boat.  

Quoted: Quoted: Jet pilot requires 2 years of flight training. You can train someone to drive a boat in 5 minutes. The USCG Surfman training program is 6 years, experienced boat drivers will still take 3 years of specialized training (average) to qualify as a Surfman...

I am NOT reducing a boat driver. However, there is no 3rd dimension. I drive a boat every weekend. Forward back, left and right. Specific mechanical operation is harder, but the principle is simple. Fighter interception is not simple at all.

Well that all depends on if you can drive a boat into Cambodia but not really be there, but remember being there, but then not remember being there!  Now tell me how many jet fighter pilots can do that!

Quoted: Quoted: Its way harder to fake medals in a jet fighter. amen. You either complete a mission, or die. There are few pow's.

A very large percentage of Vietnam POWs were either pilots or aircrew.  Granted, a lot were transport, tanker, observation, helicopter, etc pilots/aircrew, not fighters, and chances were pretty good that if you didn't die getting shot down, you DID get rescued, but the risk of ending up a POW was not negligable either.

Driving a boat in Vietnam rivers was no joke.

That being said, moving at 30 knots and moving at 450 knots are not even comparable. Let's see... 7.5 miles per minute vs 0.5 miles per minute...

Enough said.

Quoted: Me, fighter pilot ----->  he GM

I dont see how anyone could accuse you of trying "to take anything away from our Navy guys and gals"...they land THEIR jets ON "boats".

Its harder to shoot yourself in a plane too.

Quoted: What really takes talent is to place a puppy named VC on your boat in just the right place so that when you hit a mine, the puppy flies out of your boat and lands in another, lets see Bush do that in his Jet.

Bush: "I was inverted"

Iceman:" *Bullshit!*"

Goose: "No man, he was, it was really cool"

Quoted: What really takes talent is to place a puppy named VC on your boat in just the right place so that when you hit a mine, the puppy flies out of your boat and lands in another, lets see Bush do that in his Jet.

This is what Bush used to fly in.

Lets see kerry's office...



ETA:
OK, after some searching, this is what I found:

I'm a retired Navy Surface Warfare Officer.  Before my eyes went bad and I began taking too many meds, I was also a licensed private pilot.

A word of caution for you armchair "boat" and plane drivers:  Each has it unique required skillsets without which the operator will likely achieve an early meeting with his maker.

Flying is one of the most demanding things I've ever done.  It is also one of the most fun...AND clearly the most unforgiving.  Just ONE mistake and you just might end your life quickly and violently.

That said, shiphandling can be equally challenging and equally frightening.  I can think of at least five different "situations" I was involved in as Officer of the Deck or Conning officer...or both in which I had to make a split-second decision to avoid a situation that might have placed my ship and the 300+ lives of my shipmates in grave danger.  I won't list them all, because most of you landlubbers wouldn't recognize what I'm talking about.  I can assure you though there is nothing quite as scary as having an aircraft carrier make an unannounced turn right into you on a ink-black night on the midwatch.

I am not a bit surprised that the leadership of the Kennedy lost the surface bubble.  It certainly is not the first time.  It is also not the first time a major mishap at sea has occured partly because the key officers in a carrier made decisions that a surface warrier might not have made...and for the reasons already addressed here:  The airdales' focus has been planes...planes...planes for decades.  Now, after achieving those exalted positions of leadership in a carrier, they have to consider several other things such as surface nav and the engineering plant for which they have absolutely no previous experiences.  Yes, they go to schools and yes, they do at least one "unassociated" tour on a staff before making it to the CO's cabin on a carrier, but it is just not the same as driving surface ships for twenty years before making your major command.

One of the best examples of a disaster at sea was when USS SARATOGA (CV 60) fired two Seasparrow missiles into the Turkish destroyer Mauvanet.  The officers running the show in CDC were unfamiliar with the NATO Seasparrow missile system.  They conducted a no-notice surface defense exercise, gave incorrect orders and never told the enlisted fire control operators that the operation was training only.  When they sent an "engage order" to the missilemen, the kids did exactly as they were told.  Imagine the surprise to the SARATOGA's bridge team when they saw their aft port launcher suddenly spit out two missiles, then that of the Turkish bridge team just before they died.  

The sea and air can be very unforgiving.  "Eternal vigilance or eternal rest..."

Quoted: This is what Bush used to fly in. Lets see kerry's office... gra.midco.net/mlgould/Jet%20Fighters/F-102A%20Delta%20Dagger3.jpg

More gauges and  instruments than on a boat, I'll guess

This is one of the points I used to make with the dems/libs during the 2000 election when Bush was running against "Algore" and they'd comment on how "Bright" Algore was and how "Dumb" Dubya was.

Let's see, you're strapped into a 15 ton fighter with bad low-speed characteristics on base leg with traffic in front of and behind you and if you screw the pooch you die.  Yeah, any moron could do that

What takes more talent and intelligence ? Piloting a jet fighter or a boat ??

I'd say, "it depends"......

If we're talking piloting a jet over the desert, no combat pressure, verses running a swift boat in combat, under fire,

Then, I'd say the boat driver............  

I would like to see a ship accumulating ice on an instrument approach to minimums; even driving a big boat into a harbor in thick fog with zero visibility isn't the same, because the boat can slow to a crawl or stop.

LWilde hints at the real anwer - operating either piece of equipment is far more complicated than pushing around on the controls.  In fact, that part of the task had better be second nature so you can divide your attention to the interaction of the vehicle with everything around you (navigation, tactical situation, weather, an so on).

"Running into the committee boat is considered poor form"; excerpted from the coments of a sailboat race official just after the committe boat got speared by a Lightening on a reach (use your imagination about his other remarks).  The notion applies to airplanes and large ships, also.

Quoted: What takes more talent and intelligence ? Piloting a jet fighter or a boat ?? I'd say, "it depends"...... If we're talking piloting a jet over the desert, no combat pressure, verses running a swift boat in combat, under fire, Then, I'd say the boat driver............

Well if John had ever really been in combat, I might credit him with a little more smarts. Or guts. Or respect.

I know how long it takes to learn to fly a Vietnam-era fighter. How long does it take to learn to drive a riverboat? Remember that a "swift boat" ain't a destroyer, guys. You can buy basically the same boat with no drivers test. Try that with W's plane.

This isn't even worth discussing.

I have talked to some old timer fighter pilots, I work at HQ Air Force Reserve Command, they all said the F-102 was an extremely unforgiving bitch to fly.

Quoted: Quoted: What takes more talent and intelligence ? Piloting a jet fighter or a boat ?? I'd say, "it depends"...... If we're talking piloting a jet over the desert, no combat pressure, verses running a swift boat in combat, under fire, Then, I'd say the boat driver............   Well if John had ever really been in combat, I might credit him with a little more smarts. Or guts. Or respect.

I don't think there's an issue about combat. He did see combat.

I know how long it takes to learn to fly a Vietnam-era fighter. How long does it take to learn to drive a riverboat? Remember that a "swift boat" ain't a destroyer, guys. You can buy basically the same boat with no drivers test. Try that with W's plane. This isn't even worth discussing.

Ask these guys if it's worth discussing...


Boat Squadron 1 - Coastal Squadron 1
Vietnam Casualties

David Joseph Boyle SN Woodland, CA PCF 4 February 14, 1966
Thomas Edward Hill BM2 Knoxville, TN PCF 4 February 14, 1966
Jack Charles Rodriquez EN2 Jackson Heights, NY PCF 4 February 14, 1966
Dayton Luther Rudisill GMG2 Greensburg, KS PCF 4 February 14, 1966
Raleigh Lee Godley BM2 Lawson, MO PCF 41 May 22, 1966
Gale Jackson Hays EN2 Falling Rock, WV PCF 9 October 18, 1966
Eugene Lawrence Self QM3 Cateret, NJ PCF 9 October 18, 1966
Hubert Tuck Jr BM2 Lenoir City, TN PCF 9 October 18, 1966
Alvin Lee Levan GMGSN Catawissa, PA PCF 87 October 25, 1966
Kemper Swanson Billings BM1 Burlington, NC PCF 56 October 29, 1966
Harry Giles Brock BM3 Odessa, TX PCF 77 November 15, 1966
Bruce Allan Timmons RM3 Fort Lauderdale, FL PCF 77 November 15, 1966
Willy S. Baker MRC Buffalo, TN PCF 77 November 15, 1966
(Non-crewmember - Diver being transported to Hue by PCF 77)

Gary Wayne Friedmann SN Lebanon, PA PCF 39 March 11, 1967
Dennis Ray Puckett SN Independance, MO PCF 63 March 29, 1967
William Henry Murphy III LTJG Madison, WI ----- November 19, 1967
(Died in a Army helicopter crash outside Qui Nhon - never assigned to a boat/crew)

Bobby Don Carver BM1 Richmond, CA PCF 79 December 6, 1967
Carl Raymond Goodfellow EN2 Waterproof, LA PCF 88 December 23, 1967
Billy StanleyArmstrong GMG2 West Helena, AR PCF 19 June 16, 1968
Frank Bowman QM2 Waterboro, SC PCF 19 June 16, 1968
Anthony Gordon Chandler BM2 Warner Robins, GA PCF 19 June 16, 1968
Edward C. Cruz EN2 Inarajan, Guam PCF 19 June 16, 1968
Bui Quang Thi  DaNang, RVN PCF 19 June 16, 1968
(RVN crewmember/interpreter on board PCF 19)

Gerald Dever Pochel RD3 Otis, OR PCF 96 September 4, 1968
John Patrick McDermott BM2 Pittsburg, KS PCF 98 September 7, 1968
Richard Charles Simon BM3 Ellsworth, WI  November 3, 1968
David Louis Merrill EN2 South Bend, IN PCF 70 November 6, 1968
Peter Paul Blasko BM3 Southern Pines, NC PCF 89 November 8, 1968
Stephan Thomas Volz BM3 Lakewood, CA PCF 89 November 8, 1968
Richard Courtney Wallace LTJG Norfolk, VA PCF 89 November 8, 1968
Steven Ralph Luke BM2 Provo, UT PCF 36 December 6, 1968
John Raymond Hartkemeyer EN2 Hamilton, OH PCF 51 December 17, 1968
Gerald Robert Horrell BM3 North Hollywood, CA  January 5, 1969
Donald G. Droz LTJG Rich Hill, MO PCF 43 April 12, 1969
Thomas Eugene Holloway QM3 New Castle, IN PCF 51 April 12, 1969
Richard L. Baumberger Jr BM3 Mansfield, OH PCF 9 May 5, 1969
Dewey Russell Decker EN3 Ionia, MI PCF 51 May 15, 1969
Richard William Stindl GMG3 Beloit, WI PCF 51 May 15, 1969
Robert Alan Thompson BM3 Downey, CA PCF 51 May 19, 1969
Kenneth Peter West RD2 Butle, MT  June 22, 1969
Albert Mark Fransen EN3 Las Vegas, NV PCF 87 July 2, 1969
Glen Cameron Keene GMG3 Fairhope, AL PCF 87 July 2, 1969
Stephen Joseph Penta GMG3 Revere, MA PCF 57 August 12, 1969
Robert L. Crosby LTJG South Hamilton, MA ----- September 26, 1969
(CosDiv 12 staff, fatally wounded in an accidental discharge of a .50 caliber machine gun)

Richard Laverne Wissler Jr QM2 Willow Street, PA PCF 27 October 2, 1969
Kenneth Dean Norton LTJG Lady Lake, FL PCF 61 October 7, 1969
Martin Stephen Doherty RD3 New York, NY PCF 42 December 4, 1969
Craig Ward Haines RD3 Keyser, WV PCF 22 February 17, 1970
Frederick Don Snyder RD3 Moab, UT PCF 64 May 17, 1970
Lanny Howard Buroff QM2 Chicago, IL PCF 40 July 6, 1970
Joseph Peter Jurgella QM1 Stevens Point, WI PCF 59 October 25, 1970


How many casualties did Bush's unit suffer again????????????      

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jet pilot requires 2 years of flight training. You can train someone to drive a boat in 5 minutes. The USCG Surfman training program is 6 years, experienced boat drivers will still take 3 years of specialized training (average) to qualify as a Surfman... I am NOT reducing a boat driver. However, there is no 3rd dimension. I drive a boat every weekend. Forward back, left and right. Specific mechanical operation is harder, but the principle is simple. Fighter interception is not simple at all.

Not saying you are reducing the boat driver, rather that your generic comment is apples to handgrenades... Having drove Motor Lifeboats for over a decade and also being a sport pilot I seem to be the opposite of yourself -- I take it you are a professional pilot and a recreational boat driver? I am a professional boat driver and student pilot (in fact, several of our boat drivers are sport pilots).

Sure the science of flying is more demanding and the instrumentation more complex, this is what my office looks like... far from an aircraft without question:


All I am saying is that there are exceptions to almost everything... you know for a fact that with the new sport pilot license, one could make the statement that a person can be taught to fly a plan in a week... but we both know, that person would not be capable of flying a commercial passenger flight, a high performance fighter or even flying his or her little sport plan in adverse conditions.

I also argue that a person standing on your 5 minute boat drivers course is not at all ready to enter a 22 foot breaking surf zone, at night, and attempt to resque the crew of a broken up ship... Honestly, there are probably only a 100 or so Surfmen in service today, the attrition rate is said to be the highest of any specialty job in the military.

Sorry for the rant, I just got hit sideways with your comment... it takes 10 years of experience at sea before a person can even apply to apprentice as a harbor vessel pilot, but they can go on to make 150K to 200K a year -- which, is more than my brother in law makes as a commercial airline pilot, wonder why that is? Now I know that harbor pilot is not a "boat driver" in the spirit of this thread, but to trivialize the profession on a whole is rather myopic, but then the the whole point of the original post was to juxtapose two individuals, not really there professions...

peace

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: What takes more talent and intelligence ? Piloting a jet fighter or a boat ?? I'd say, "it depends"...... If we're talking piloting a jet over the desert, no combat pressure, verses running a swift boat in combat, under fire, Then, I'd say the boat driver............   Well if John had ever really been in combat, I might credit him with a little more smarts. Or guts. Or respect. I don't think there's an issue about combat. He did see combat. I know how long it takes to learn to fly a Vietnam-era fighter. How long does it take to learn to drive a riverboat? Remember that a "swift boat" ain't a destroyer, guys. You can buy basically the same boat with no drivers test. Try that with W's plane. This isn't even worth discussing. Ask these guys if it's worth discussing... Boat Squadron 1 - Coastal Squadron 1 Vietnam Casualties David Joseph Boyle SN Woodland, CA PCF 4 February 14, 1966 Thomas Edward Hill BM2 Knoxville, TN PCF 4 February 14, 1966 Jack Charles Rodriquez EN2 Jackson Heights, NY PCF 4 February 14, 1966 Dayton Luther Rudisill GMG2 Greensburg, KS PCF 4 February 14, 1966 Raleigh Lee Godley BM2 Lawson, MO PCF 41 May 22, 1966 Gale Jackson Hays EN2 Falling Rock, WV PCF 9 October 18, 1966 Eugene Lawrence Self QM3 Cateret, NJ PCF 9 October 18, 1966 Hubert Tuck Jr BM2 Lenoir City, TN PCF 9 October 18, 1966 Alvin Lee Levan GMGSN Catawissa, PA PCF 87 October 25, 1966 Kemper Swanson Billings BM1 Burlington, NC PCF 56 October 29, 1966 Harry Giles Brock BM3 Odessa, TX PCF 77 November 15, 1966 Bruce Allan Timmons RM3 Fort Lauderdale, FL PCF 77 November 15, 1966 Willy S. Baker MRC Buffalo, TN PCF 77 November 15, 1966 (Non-crewmember - Diver being transported to Hue by PCF 77) Gary Wayne Friedmann SN Lebanon, PA PCF 39 March 11, 1967 Dennis Ray Puckett SN Independance, MO PCF 63 March 29, 1967 William Henry Murphy III LTJG Madison, WI ----- November 19, 1967 (Died in a Army helicopter crash outside Qui Nhon - never assigned to a boat/crew) Bobby Don Carver BM1 Richmond, CA PCF 79 December 6, 1967 Carl Raymond Goodfellow EN2 Waterproof, LA PCF 88 December 23, 1967 Billy StanleyArmstrong GMG2 West Helena, AR PCF 19 June 16, 1968 Frank Bowman QM2 Waterboro, SC PCF 19 June 16, 1968 Anthony Gordon Chandler BM2 Warner Robins, GA PCF 19 June 16, 1968 Edward C. Cruz EN2 Inarajan, Guam PCF 19 June 16, 1968 Bui Quang Thi  DaNang, RVN PCF 19 June 16, 1968 (RVN crewmember/interpreter on board PCF 19) Gerald Dever Pochel RD3 Otis, OR PCF 96 September 4, 1968 John Patrick McDermott BM2 Pittsburg, KS PCF 98 September 7, 1968 Richard Charles Simon BM3 Ellsworth, WI  November 3, 1968 David Louis Merrill EN2 South Bend, IN PCF 70 November 6, 1968 Peter Paul Blasko BM3 Southern Pines, NC PCF 89 November 8, 1968 Stephan Thomas Volz BM3 Lakewood, CA PCF 89 November 8, 1968 Richard Courtney Wallace LTJG Norfolk, VA PCF 89 November 8, 1968 Steven Ralph Luke BM2 Provo, UT PCF 36 December 6, 1968 John Raymond Hartkemeyer EN2 Hamilton, OH PCF 51 December 17, 1968 Gerald Robert Horrell BM3 North Hollywood, CA  January 5, 1969 Donald G. Droz LTJG Rich Hill, MO PCF 43 April 12, 1969 Thomas Eugene Holloway QM3 New Castle, IN PCF 51 April 12, 1969 Richard L. Baumberger Jr BM3 Mansfield, OH PCF 9 May 5, 1969 Dewey Russell Decker EN3 Ionia, MI PCF 51 May 15, 1969 Richard William Stindl GMG3 Beloit, WI PCF 51 May 15, 1969 Robert Alan Thompson BM3 Downey, CA PCF 51 May 19, 1969 Kenneth Peter West RD2 Butle, MT  June 22, 1969 Albert Mark Fransen EN3 Las Vegas, NV PCF 87 July 2, 1969 Glen Cameron Keene GMG3 Fairhope, AL PCF 87 July 2, 1969 Stephen Joseph Penta GMG3 Revere, MA PCF 57 August 12, 1969 Robert L. Crosby LTJG South Hamilton, MA ----- September 26, 1969 (CosDiv 12 staff, fatally wounded in an accidental discharge of a .50 caliber machine gun) Richard Laverne Wissler Jr QM2 Willow Street, PA PCF 27 October 2, 1969 Kenneth Dean Norton LTJG Lady Lake, FL PCF 61 October 7, 1969 Martin Stephen Doherty RD3 New York, NY PCF 42 December 4, 1969 Craig Ward Haines RD3 Keyser, WV PCF 22 February 17, 1970 Frederick Don Snyder RD3 Moab, UT PCF 64 May 17, 1970 Lanny Howard Buroff QM2 Chicago, IL PCF 40 July 6, 1970 Joseph Peter Jurgella QM1 Stevens Point, WI PCF 59 October 25, 1970 How many casualties did Bush's unit suffer again????????????

Ease up, liberty86. Read my post again.  No offense meant to the deserving. Remember we're talking about driving boats and airplanes, not the guys you listed who did their duty and earned their medals. I am proud to call friends two guys who earned silver stars on riverboats. Earned. Not bought. Not self nominated. Not buttkissed. Not forged.

The only debate about who was and who wasn't in real combat concerns the self promoting asshole who would like to be president, who is trading on the reputations of the people who really do know what a bullet sounds like when it's too close. I know something about that myself.

Gunzilla,
You have a good attitude and thanks for the input, this was just posted tongue in cheek
as you well know.

I love boating myself and own two small sailboats. I've watched documenteries
on Surfman and was pretty damn impressed.

GM

Quoted: Sorry for the rant, I just got hit sideways with your comment... it takes 10 years of experience at sea before a person can even apply to apprentice as a harbor vessel pilot, but they can go on to make 150K to 200K a year -- which, is more than my brother in law makes as a commercial airline pilot, wonder why that is? Now I know that harbor pilot is not a "boat driver" in the spirit of this thread, but to trivialize the profession on a whole is rather myopic, but then the the whole point of the original post was to juxtapose two individuals, not really there professions... peace

As stated from above, the F102 was a cranky widowmaker. Some aircraft are just destined to be a bitch to fly. and G dub picked one. A lot of century fighters were NOT easy to fly. Like the F104, F102, etc....

I hate to say it, but the F-102 Delta Dagger was a poor aerodynamic design. It didn't see very long service in the US Air Force and was superceded by the F-106 Delta Dart as NORADs main continental air defense interceptor. Both designs came out of an era where the Pentagon felt that missiles were the wave of the future and the dog fight a obsolete. Both aircraft were basically fast, delta winged, air to air missile platforms designed to intercept fleets of heavy bombers and not go one-on-one against an enemy fighter. Neitherinterceptor was very maneuverable and rarely were the pilots experienced in dogfighting.

Until the mid to late 70's 70's there wasn't any thought of mounting guns on the F-106 and by then the F-15 was on the verge of deployment.

The F-102 and F-106 were designed to work with the SAGE system (Semi-Autonomous Ground Environment). The aerodynamics and electronics of the time didn't allow for a long range radar to be carried. The pilot was basically there to take-off and land the plane. Once in the air, he would turn control over to ground controllers. The ground controllers would use a system of ground based radars to ID the target and vector the F-102 or F-106 towards the target and get the platform close enough so that the pilot could fire the missiles. They even had the nuclear tipped Genie to maximize the chance of taking out formations of Soviet bombers.

FIGHTER pilots from the 40's and 50's really hated the aircraft.

www.ed-thelen.org/sage-1.html

Depends upon the boat but I'd say a Swiftboat is one of the easier craft to handle.  Obviously driving a submarine or an aircraft carrier or super tanker is a big deal.  I'd rather drive a Swiftboat than most sailboats!  Kerry needed about 1 month of training to get up to speed, and I am not sure he even drove it (did they have a helmsman on the Swift?).

GunLvr

Jet. Why: 2 more dimensions, verticle and time 30kts vs 600kts, gotta think reeeeeaaaaaal fast.

Quoted: Me, fighter pilot ----->    <------  Dems, boat driver The point isn't to take anything away from our Navy guys and gals GM

Tom Clancy once said that flying a fighter jet under combat conditions is as tough as trying to play two pianos at once. I tend to agree.

The sea is no easy mistress, and she does not suffer fools, but those who foul up in the air usually pay the ultimate price for it. The air is, in my opinion, less forgiving.

Plus the whole third dimension of movement adds to the diffculty.

Frankly, either a boat or plane pilot is beyond me. I would kill all involved if I were to be behind the wheel/stick of either.

I have a fast boat (31' Fountain w/ twin 250s) but flying scares me.

Quoted: ... One of the best examples of a disaster at sea was when USS SARATOGA (CV 60) fired two Seasparrow missiles into the Turkish destroyer Mauvanet.  The officers running the show in CDC were unfamiliar with the NATO Seasparrow missile system.  They conducted a no-notice surface defense exercise, gave incorrect orders and never told the enlisted fire control operators that the operation was training only.  When they sent an "engage order" to the missilemen, the kids did exactly as they were told.  Imagine the surprise to the SARATOGA's bridge team when they saw their aft port launcher suddenly spit out two missiles, then that of the Turkish bridge team just before they died.   The sea and air can be very unforgiving.  "Eternal vigilance or eternal rest..."

You know, sometimes I wonder if there are threads on some Turkish message board about "is the US really our ally?" and some of the posters there carry on and on about the MAUVENET in the same way some here do about the USS LIBERTY.

Bump.

If you lived in South Florida, near the water, you would never, ever have to ask that question. Most of the planes I observe are not actually in the process of crashing. However, any casual visitor to a marina here can tell you ... in all sincerity ... that any godamn fool can "pilot" a boat. And quite often does.   Stay safe