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Posted: 9/10/2004 8:10:26 AM EDT
[#1]
This has been widely know and is indicated in his records the press has just neglected to point it out.
I wonder why? |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 9:07:12 AM EDT
[#2]
Yeah,there was a program at the time where F-102 ANG pilots could volunteer for Viet Nam duty.And if anyone thinks it was safe duty,an F-102 was shot down by a MiG-21,and a few were hit by groundfire.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 9:09:35 AM EDT
[#3]
Do they have documented proof to through back at Kerry?
ktm500 |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 9:21:25 AM EDT
[#4]
It's interesting to note the difference in how Kerry & Bush fight. Kerry stands up and pounds his chest, acts like the hipocrites do as noted in the Bible slinging all the shit his shovel will hold. Bush stands back and lets the truth come out and never casts a stone. The difference between a piece of shit and a true moral leader.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 9:31:07 AM EDT
[#5]
The F102 was a dated aircraft then, too. That doesnt help your chances of front line service.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 9:52:30 AM EDT
[#6]
A first hand report on that question..
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040210-082910-8424r.htm 'Bush and I were lieutenants' George Bush and I were lieutenants and pilots in the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS), Texas Air ...... snip ... The mission of the 147th Fighter Group and its subordinate 111th FIS, Texas ANG, and the airplane it possessed, the F-102, was air defense. It was focused on defending the continental United States from Soviet nuclear bombers. The F-102 could not drop bombs and would have been useless in Vietnam. A pilot program using ANG volunteer pilots in F-102s (called Palace Alert) was scrapped quickly after the airplane proved to be unsuitable to the war effort. Ironically, Lt. Bush did inquire about this program but was advised by an ANG supervisor (Maj. Maurice Udell, retired) that he did not have the desired experience (500 hours) at the time and that the program was winding down and not accepting more volunteers. ....snip COL. WILLIAM CAMPENNI (retired) U.S. Air Force/Air National Guard Herndon, Va.5 " |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:03:44 AM EDT
[#7]
Kind of like a 'Gunshow SEAL' vs the real deal... |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:09:02 AM EDT
[#8]
The name of the program was called "Palace Alert".
It augmented the only two F-102 squadrons that went to Vietnam (82nd and 509th Fighter Interceptor Squadron) with pilots who volunteered. Bush did not have the required minimum amount of flight time (500 hours) in the F-102 required to participate in the program and the program ended in 1969. In any case the F-102 left Vietnam service in 1969. In almost ten years of flying air defense and a few combat air patrols for SAC B-52s, only 15 F-102As were lost. One was lost to an air-to-air missile fired by a MiG-21. Two were lost to AAA/small arms fire. Four were destroyed on the ground by the Viet Cong. Eight were lost in operational accidents. 55-3371 lost in Viet Cong attack on Da Nang airfield, Jul 1, 1965. 55-3373 lost over North Vietnam Dec 15, 1965. 56-1161 lost in Viet Cong attack on Da Nang airfield, Jul 1, 1965. 56-1165 lost in Viet Cong attack on Bien Hoa Airfield, May 12, 1967. 56-1166 shot down by MiG-21/Atoll Feb 3, 1968 56-1389 lost over North Vietnam Dec 14, 1966 |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:12:27 AM EDT
[#9]
I'm voting for Bush, but I don't understand this bull about both of the candidate's service during the Vietnam war...
If Bush volunteered to serve the first time and was denied because he didn't have enough flying hours, why didn't he get his hours logged before he tried to sign up again? It makes it look as if it was just a jesture that he knew he was never going to be able to fulfill. And if he REALLY wanted to serve, why didn't he sign up to go as opposed to the ANG? I don't like Kerry's stand on almost every issue, but this dragging his medals through the mud, and the disrespesct for his service is appalling to me. Kerry was in Vietnam and risked his life for our freedom. If he came back home and decided that is was an unjust war, that is his right, and if he didn't risk his ass he may not have had that right. I know it is bullshit, and it is one of the reasons I detest Kerry, but in any event he put his life on the line. Bush did not go to Vietnam. Period. I don't want hear about how he tried, but wasn't allowed. That's bull. I also don't want to hear about how the rich kids didn't have any special treatment when it came to NG appointments. America has always had two classes, the common man and the rich elite. The rich get away with stuff that the common man will never be able to prove. Lets focus on the real reasons we shouldn't vote for Kerry and not throw rocks from our glass house. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:35:03 AM EDT
[#10]
You mean things like the fact that Kerry is a flip-flopping tax-and-spend Massachusetts liberal???  |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:38:03 AM EDT
[#11]
come on now you mean the media not report the whole truth,,come on now that's not true, just ask them
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:40:53 AM EDT
[#12]
So everyone who was in the Air National Guard and the Air Force Reserve who did not go to Vietnam falls into the catagoy of "rich elite" then.
Hmmmm.......
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:43:27 AM EDT
[#13]
It's true. I read it on the net! |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 10:45:11 AM EDT
[#14]
F-102 at Danang
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:18:52 AM EDT
[#15]
No that's not what I said, but I do believe that any rich elite who wanted to get into the ANG could and did. And those that did were put ahead of others on a list because of their connections. It happens all the time and still does. Rich guys get to keep thier licenses for DUI's, regular folk don't. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:22:48 AM EDT
[#16]
I LIKE BUSH!!!
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:30:41 AM EDT
[#17]
You are talking about the Air National Guard, President Bush and the fact that they didn't go to Vietnam.
What about the poor and middle class that got into the ANG? You include everyone who was in the ANG who did not got to Vietnam, from the Commanding Officer to the lowest E-nothing that cleaned shitters, not just President Bush. Did they ALL use their rich connected family to keep from going?
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:42:54 AM EDT
[#18]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quoted: Lets focus on the real reasons we shouldn't vote for Kerry and not throw rocks from our glass house. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ok, how about this. kerry is a coward who disgraced his country and the men who served with honor. kerry plans to do it again when he leaves us in iraq and 'stan with inadequate support while he executes a pull out. don't think it can happen? it has before. kerry already talks about reducing the war, and cutting military spending. that spells increased causulties against U.S. troops, and cuts in pay, losses in numbers of personel, and more shortages of equipment, and shity equipemnt, just like when clinton cut cost and felt our pain. lemme tell ya, i'm lookin forward to it. i feel like anyone who votes for such a man leaves me out on a limb, doesn't value the service and sacrifice of my commrades and myself, and doesn't deserve any respect from me in return. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:44:48 AM EDT
[#19]
Hey, dipwad, my dad was a highschool D student who was functionally illiterate and was a sargeant in the California National Guard during Vietnam just before I was born. His family was anything but rich. Bush VOLUNTEERED to go to Vietnam, Kerry enlisted in the Naval reserve and managed to request duty offshore until he learned that the Swift boats were going inland. He then spent the next three months (one of his four months in country was in training in safety) bellyaching to the point his superiors just shuffled him around until he managed to shoot himself in the ass three times and bail out of country. He owes the navy another 243 days of service to even have completed his military obligation. He is out of the military by fraud. That is equivalent to a dishonorable discharge as far as I am concerned. While still in the inactive reserve he collaborated with the enemy. That makes him a bona-fide traitor in my book. Bush completed his obligation. Suck on that for a while! Planerench out. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:45:37 AM EDT
[#20]
and people still think that Bush sending our troops over to Iraq is a mistake......
Bush has been to war-and he volunteered......I know that losing a loved one in war is not the best thing in life, but until terrorist strikes again-america needs to understand that to gain freedom, there will never be a time when lives are not losts......YOU JUST CAN'T INVITE TERRORIST OVER FOR A CUP A TEA AND TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS AND HOW TO SOLVE IT |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:47:51 AM EDT
[#21]
Bullpucky! We have a chronic alcoholic working for us that had five DUI arrests before he had to do mandatory jail time. He kept getting work exemptions for driving to place of employment. You obviously know nothing about your subject matter! Planerench out. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:50:04 AM EDT
[#22]
Bush volunteered for service in VN. He didn't have the flight hours. By the time he had the flight hours there were no more F-102s in VN. How is that just doing something for show?
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Posted: 9/10/2004 11:50:35 AM EDT
[#23]
You mean to tell me Dan Rather failed to mention it? |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:12:34 PM EDT
[#24]
As I said before I do not think the entire ANG was full of rich elite, but if a rich kid wanted to avioid going over seas the family could have used their influence to get them higher up on the list and many did. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:13:57 PM EDT
[#25]
really, who gives a shit.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:14:19 PM EDT
[#26]
The quote of mine you attached above answers your question. Not everyone in their was a rich elite, but rich elite were in there and were put in therer above others who should have had the oppotunity first. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:15:31 PM EDT
[#27]
I totally agree and wish the campaign focused on these potential risks more than the events of 2 young servicemen |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:18:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Bla bla bla..... [edit for personal attacks]
If you paint one person in the ANG with that brush of yours you paint them all. It's one or the other.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:19:55 PM EDT
[#29]
Hey respected fellow human being, I am glad your dad was not bumped down the list for a rich elite, but others were. Luckily he wasn't as he would have risked his life and potentially given it up for the good of our country. And then you wouldn't be here huh? |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:22:21 PM EDT
[#30]
None of this seemed to matter when Klinton was running. They didnt seem to mind that he was/is a draft dodger. Niether did the American people
 Arnt you glad WE gave women the right to vote?
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:22:46 PM EDT
[#31]
So he had to pay fines, and was restricted on when and where he could drive. Cops get off all the time without even a fine. So do the rich who know or live in the same neighborhood as the county judge they go in front of. I don't think your coworkers unishment was tough enough, but it was still some sort of punishment |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 12:25:04 PM EDT
[#32]
You make no sense here, you mean if I say there were women in the ANG that means I'm saying the ANG was ALL women? |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 3:13:11 PM EDT
[#33]
There was a pretty good article on the F-102 in a way back issue of Air Combat.Sure is kinda silly to paint an ADC interceptor in camo,they look much better in ADC grey,they also had some wild markings in those days. Bush sure screwed up,he got out too early,had he stayed in a little longer,he could have flown the F-101 Voodoo,I saw these bats outa hell scream from Ellington all the time.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 3:50:56 PM EDT
[#34]
I don't make any sense?
[edit for personal attacks] you're the one saying that the ANG was the place to hide from Vietnam service, not me. If you say that Bush went into the ANG to get out of Vietnam service then you are saying that every swinging dick that was in the ANG and did not go to Vietnam was in the ANG to get out of Vietnam service. Like I said, you can't have it both ways.
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Posted: 9/10/2004 4:13:04 PM EDT
[#35]
Why do you resort to name calling. After reading your last post I now understand what you are trying to say.
I am not saying that serving in the ANG was in any way hiding from the war in Vietnam. To the contrary, the men in those units served our country well and were still at the front line of defense for our borders. If anyone used their wealth, power, or influence to ensure their sons were chosen over anyone else, a travesty occured. Not by the sons, but by the parents that chose to cheat the system. Again, I have nothing but respect for ANYONE who served our counrty in ANY capacity. and I apologize to anyone that took offense. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 5:02:44 PM EDT
[#36]
Another thing that I don't see mentioned is that Bush's draft number meant that he didn't have to join the ANG to avoid going to Vietnam. His birthdate is 7/6/1946, which means that his draft number was 327. He was in no danger of being called up.
(In case you're wondering, John Kerry's birthdate is 12/11/43, which means his draft number was 39). |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 5:54:00 PM EDT
[#37]
I agree with this statement 100% AMEN, brother |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 6:04:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Darwin'sBitchDog admits he doesn't understand, so back off of him.
He sounds like your run-of-the-mill lazy loser who won't work for what he wants so he blames the mythical non-productive rich. Every rich person I have ever know works long and hard. It might help explain why they are rich. So ignore Chuchie'sPoochPoonTang. He doesn't know crap. |
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Posted: 9/10/2004 6:12:30 PM EDT
[#39]
Makes CFII look like a fool doesn't it!
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Posted: 9/10/2004 8:08:16 PM EDT
[#40]
"It's interesting to note the difference in how Kerry & Bush fight. Kerry stands up and pounds his chest, acts like the hipocrites do as noted in the Bible slinging all the shit his shovel will hold. Bush stands back and lets the truth come out and never casts a stone. The difference between a piece of shit and a true moral leader."
AMEN BROTHER! |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 4:22:03 AM EDT
[#41]
Hey Mahatma, Thanks for you support??? But, I ain't your bitch and you don't kow shit about me. To set the record straight, I came from meager beginnings and worked my ass off to become successful. You can know as many rich people as you want, but I am on the other side of the fence now and see first hand what goes on. Yes, most people work their asses off to succeed, and once you get there, there are doors open to you that most of America will never have available. You're the one that doesn't know crap. You guys have used generalizations for everything I have said to try and twist my words into something you can get upset at. Knock yourselves out, you all obviously need something to be angry about. It really doesn't matter anyway as I don't expect everyone to have the same opinion as me, and unlike all the people who posted thier little insults, I respect those that have differing opinions and their right to express them. Hey, what do you call the worst soldier to ever be in a war zone??? A VETERAN And they ALL deserve our respect, even if they are a Democrat |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 4:47:28 AM EDT
[#42]
[edit for personal attacks]you call anyone who spent at least one day in the US Military who got out with an honerable discharge a Veteran, not just those who served in a war zone.
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Posted: 9/13/2004 4:57:08 AM EDT
[#43]
Hey guys,
I have a copy of an e-mail that General Curtis Lemay sent complaining about GWB's performance as a pilot. Apparently, he used to fly all coked-up and with chicks in the cockpit. I showed the e-mail to my neighbor and he says that it looks like an email, so it appears as though this thing is legitimate. Oh, and I found a 1973 powerpoint presentation from the Texan ANG that is pretty damning as well. 
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Posted: 9/13/2004 5:07:00 AM EDT
[#44]
Again, your lack of reading comprehension frustrates you and your reaction is to call people names. You are a sad man.... A soldier that was in a war war zone is a veteran, I never said ONLY soldiers in war zones were veterans, you assumed that because you need something to be angry at. Go and be angry, you are still wrong and have a horrible command of the english language. And please refrain from attacking me personally, Thank You. |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 5:10:40 AM EDT
[#45]
I heard Col. Dolittle ordered Lt Bush to stay 10 feet away from the B-26's before they bombed Tokyo. It's all in sindscript, on a big rock down by the river, by the guy that lives there in his van, in fact it's notorized too. I wonder where they get notary stamps that work on boulders? I had no idea Al Gore was a notary. Invetor of the internet, fast driver, and a notary.................that guy does it all. |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 5:24:21 AM EDT
[#46]
I comprehend just fine.
I can tell you are one "those" kinds of people who resort to the tired [edit for personal attacks]mantra of "your reaction is to call people names" when they can't handle the truth. Again, you are trying to back talk and double talk your way out of this again. You can't have it both ways. You stated very clearly that only a person in a combat zone is entitled to be called a veteran. I pointed ou the truth. You seem to have a problem with the truth.
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Posted: 9/13/2004 5:54:28 AM EDT
[#47]
The above in red I never said, and is the whole basis for your argument. You are not worth my time as you are nothing but an angry little man. The anger most likely comes from some sort of self hate for your lack of abilities, Good luck in your life, you'll need it. |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 6:24:27 AM EDT
[#48]
Well, we do know that the military has technology above and beyond what the ordinary The reason: Bill Gates is a patsy!! |
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Posted: 9/13/2004 6:33:39 AM EDT
[#49]
So anyways, [edit for personal attacks]
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Posted: 9/13/2004 8:44:55 AM EDT
[#50]
Now THAT is an intelligent reply. It helps you so much in your argument. |
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