For the second time in my life I have come to the realization that Michigan sucks! I came to this conclusion once before, and I moved to North Carolina as a result. Eventually, for some unknown reason, I moved back! Now I have realized once again the Michigan sucks! Why? Because:

1. This state has a boatload of taxpayer funded entitlement programs that the dumbass Democrats refuse to allow any cuts to! Even with a balanced budget law in this state, we are STILL running a deficit and the Demonrat Canuc Govoner refuses to cut back on the handouts for deadbeats!

2. Property taxes are out of controll, and only getting worse! I pay over $4,000 a year property tax on a 1400 square foot ranch valued at around $150,000! Now, I just heard on the radio (on the Frank Beckman show)today that the State Sentate passed a bill that will increase everyone's property taxes by 1/3! The plan is to have everyone over the next three years pre-pay one year's property tax. This law has been submitted and voted on by the Senate with NO media coverage! They did it in secret, and the state House votes on it today! The reason for this? To fund the handouts for deadbeats mentioned in gripe #1!

3. Business are leaving the state in droves, and jobs are disappearing faster than potato chips at a fat farm!

4. Gun controll is rampant! All class 3 weapons are illegal, unless you are a class 3 dealer selling to the government or police. All handguns must be registered, and you cannot purchase a handgun without a permit to purchase or a CCW. Although we have a "shall issue" law on CCW's, each county has it's own procedures, and many are VERY restrictive. My father applied for his CCW, and 4 weeks later recieved a letter telling him to go down and pick it up. When I applied in my county, I was informed that I would recieve notification in 3 months telling me the date that I will need to appear before the county gun board for my hearing to see if I can get my CCW. All handguns MUST be registered, and in case you're wondering anything with a folding or collapsable stock that is less than 30 inches in length is considered a handgun (if your AR collapses to less than 30 inches, it's a handgun).

5. The weather sucks for 9 months of the year. Winter last from November to April and you can get snowstorms during any of those months. There are at least 3 times per winter when you get 6 or more inches. Spring consits of any part of April where there is no snow, and May (when you can still ge snow) during which it rains almost non-stop. Fall is September and October, and it rains constantly during these months as well!

6. Crime in the city of Detroit is completely out of control. Detroit is currently the number one city for violent crime, and we are on our way to having the highest murder rate in the nation this year. Detroit always ranks in the top 5 for murder rates. Drug dealers are knocking off each other and the police in movie style shoot outs that often time include utlra evil assault weapons.

7. Every single one of my elected representitives at the Local, State and Federal level, with the exception of President Bush, is a dumbass Democrat. I've got some of the worst ones too!

Don't get me wrong, that ain't the end of the list by a longshot! I could go on all day about the brainwashed union idiots, the completely failed eduaction system (one of the worst in the nation), the stranglehold by corrupt local politicians (I don't think there is a city in Southeastern MI that hasn't had a major corruption scandal in the last 5 years), the fact that Detroit is the most racially polarized city in the nation, and more. It's just that my hands are getting cramped!

Move to a free state.

Problem solved.

Move back to NC

Quoted: Move back to NC

I'm seriously considering it! I loved NC!

C&R MGs with a C&R ticket are legal.

You missed the best reason why Michigan blows...they pay for all the welfare with the "SBT" tax on businesses. Companies have been running for Indiana for 10 years now, and these stupid asses can't figure out why.

Quoted: 2. Property taxes are out of controll, and only getting worse! I pay over $4,000 a year property tax on a 1400 square foot ranch valued at around $150,000! Now, I just heard on the radio (on the Frank Beckman show)today that the State Sentate passed a bill that will increase everyone's property taxes by 1/3! The plan is to have everyone over the next three years pre-pay one year's property tax. This law has been submitted and voted on by the Senate with NO media coverage! They did it in secret, and the state House votes on it today! The reason for this? To fund the handouts for deadbeats mentioned in gripe #1!

Wow!  My tax rate is .78 per $100.  

try oregon.....

if ya wanna know suck....

I've seriously considered moving out of state myself for many of the same reasons... I just need to convince the wife. Oh yeah, and get the cojones to do it.

Nevada!!

I want to move to Vegas so bad I can taste it.

You already left once. Why did you go back?

You forgot to add that your Governor is trying to give Toyota a piece of state land for 9 million dollars when other buys have already offered over 20 million dollars for it.  Not only is she trying to short change the citizens of the state on the purchase price but Toyota is a foreign owned company in direct competition with the largest US car companies and employer in the state of Michigan.  In addition Toyota, at least at the plant here in Kentucky is non-union.

So to sum it up your Canadian Born, California Educated, Female Democrat Governor has a plan to:
screw the budget out of 10 to 15 million in revenu and give special treatment to a foreign non-union company that is a direct threat US made products and jobs.  Get this, she's says it's worth it because it might create a couple hundred jobs!

Plus Michigan just proposed their own state version of the assault weapons ban.

Michigan has it really bad right now.  Hopefully it improves.  If not there is still room down here in Kentucky for someone else from Michigan.

Quoted: For the second time in my life I have come to the realization that Michigan sucks! I came to this conclusion once before, and I moved to North Carolina as a result. Eventually, for some unknown reason, I moved back! Now I have realized once again the Michigan sucks! Why? Because: 1. This state has a boatload of taxpayer funded entitlement programs that the dumbass Democrats refuse to allow any cuts to! Even with a balanced budget law in this state, we are STILL running a deficit and the Demonrat Canuc Govoner refuses to cut back on the handouts for deadbeats! 2. Property taxes are out of controll, and only getting worse! I pay over $4,000 a year property tax on a 1400 square foot ranch valued at around $150,000! Now, I just heard on the radio (on the Frank Beckman show)today that the State Sentate passed a bill that will increase everyone's property taxes by 1/3! The plan is to have everyone over the next three years pre-pay one year's property tax. This law has been submitted and voted on by the Senate with NO media coverage! They did it in secret, and the state House votes on it today! The reason for this? To fund the handouts for deadbeats mentioned in gripe #1! 3. Business are leaving the state in droves, and jobs are disappearing faster than potato chips at a fat farm! 4. Gun controll is rampant! All class 3 weapons are illegal, unless you are a class 3 dealer selling to the government or police. All handguns must be registered, and you cannot purchase a handgun without a permit to purchase or a CCW. Although we have a "shall issue" law on CCW's, each county has it's own procedures, and many are VERY restrictive. My father applied for his CCW, and 4 weeks later recieved a letter telling him to go down and pick it up. When I applied in my county, I was informed that I would recieve notification in 3 months telling me the date that I will need to appear before the county gun board for my hearing to see if I can get my CCW. All handguns MUST be registered, and in case you're wondering anything with a folding or collapsable stock that is less than 30 inches in length is considered a handgun (if your AR collapses to less than 30 inches, it's a handgun). 5. The weather sucks for 9 months of the year. Winter last from November to April and you can get snowstorms during any of those months. There are at least 3 times per winter when you get 6 or more inches. Spring consits of any part of April where there is no snow, and May (when you can still ge snow) during which it rains almost non-stop. Fall is September and October, and it rains constantly during these months as well! 6. Crime in the city of Detroit is completely out of control. Detroit is currently the number one city for violent crime, and we are on our way to having the highest murder rate in the nation this year. Detroit always ranks in the top 5 for murder rates. Drug dealers are knocking off each other and the police in movie style shoot outs that often time include utlra evil assault weapons. 7. Every single one of my elected representitives at the Local, State and Federal level, with the exception of President Bush, is a dumbass Democrat. I've got some of the worst ones too! Don't get me wrong, that ain't the end of the list by a longshot! I could go on all day about the brainwashed union idiots, the completely failed eduaction system (one of the worst in the nation), the stranglehold by corrupt local politicians (I don't think there is a city in Southeastern MI that hasn't had a major corruption scandal in the last 5 years), the fact that Detroit is the most racially polarized city in the nation, and more. It's just that my hands are getting cramped!

Speak it brother!

I feel your rant. After my little Army adventure comes to an end, I am packing my stuff and heading out to Arizona. One of the few "Homes of the Free".

I'm not willing to give up on this state yet.  There's a whole lot I like about it, but the things you mentioned suck and suck and suck.  Especially agreed that the taxes and other lib entitlement bullshit along with the corruption that's rampant in SEMich (very similar to Chicago in that that area of the state forms the agenda for the rest of the state) has not helped this state any.

Wow!!  I think mid-Michigan is great.  But my perspective might be a little suspect because I came from Kalifornia.  I agree the state has problems, but I really like living here and I don't see that the proposed MI AWB has a snowball's chance in hell of passing.

Quoted: You forgot to add that your Governor is trying to give Toyota a piece of state land for 9 million dollars when other buys have already offered over 20 million dollars for it.  Not only is she trying to short change the citizens of the state on the purchase price but Toyota is a foreign owned company in direct competition with the largest US car companies and employer in the state of Michigan.  In addition Toyota, at least at the plant here in Kentucky is non-union. So to sum it up your Canadian Born, California Educated, Female Democrat Governor has a plan to: screw the budget out of 10 to 15 million in revenu and give special treatment to a foreign non-union company that is a direct threat US made products and jobs.  Get this, she's says it's worth it because it might create a couple hundred jobs! Plus Michigan just proposed their own state version of the assault weapons ban. Michigan has it really bad right now.  Hopefully it improves.  If not there is still room down here in Kentucky for someone else from Michigan.

Toyota workers repeatedly reject any union attempts to organize.  They know how good they have it, and they know that organazing will fuck it up forever.

Face it, unions are on a death spiral, and no one who is a useful contributor needs one.

I live 15 miles from the Ohio border and have been seriously considering moving there, especially since they relaxed their CCW laws.

Class 3 - YES
SBR - YES

An added plus would be that my car insurance would likely be lower.  Michigan has the retarded "no-fault" crap.  Friends who live in Ohio say they pay much less for their insurance for similiar model cars.

Let's be honest.

Michigan is great.

Detroit is what sucks. Time and History proves that Michigan lost the War of Toledo.

Too many liberal, union spoiled babys from Detroit is the problem.

Michigan is really 3 separate regions within the state. ...The Upper Pennisula, Detroit, and everywhere else.

If we could get rid of Detroit, things would be much better!

(the above is not intended to apply to any one individual).

In my line of work (automotive design) I could triple my salary by moving up there.  But it ain't no place for a father w/ girls at 11 &17 years old, or a farmboy.  Since I'm both I'll make due with what I've got right here.

I've been through that hell hole on business trips.  NO THANKS!

Quoted: Let's be honest. Michigan is great. Detroit is what sucks. Time and History proves that Michigan lost the War of Toledo. Too many liberal, union spoiled babys from Detroit is the problem. Michigan is really 3 separate regions within the state. ...The Upper Pennisula, Detroit, and everywhere else. If we could get rid of Detroit, things would be much better! (the above is not intended to apply to any one individual).

Every state has that.  Missouri would be pretty cool if the Mississippi would just rise up and swallow St. Louis.  Kansas City is only *slightly* better.  I plan to retire to a large section of land in a state with little developement.  I'm 28 and I sound like an old man already but I just want to live somewhere without police, politicos, and welfare bums crawling up my ass to rob me of everything.

Quoted: The Upper Pennisula

I grew up a Yooper.

I am not yet willing to give up on this state either.

Yes, paying for the welfare handouts blows.
Yes, it will really suck to see my tax bill go up by a third to pay for welfare handouts.  That will bring my annual tax bill to about 1800 for a $125k house.

I do not live in SE suburbia, and I would probably want to move out of state or somewhere else if I did.  I did grow up there, that wasn't too long ago, I remember not liking it, and I can't stand even driving through the area now.  About the only thing I still do there is visit my parents - wait - it has been damn near a year since I have even been to their house.  

I live just north of Grand Rapids, work in Cascade, can hunt deer, geese, wood ducks (and puddle ducks once I dig a pond), rabbits, and turkeys on my land, can fish in the Rogue River which is across a quarter mile of hayfield, enjoy the snow, and don't mind the rain or clouds.

I plan on homeshcooling my kids.

Yes our governor has some screwed up policies.  I didn't vote for her.

If we have an AWB go into effect (I don't think this is likely at all) I will move.

I can't say when or if taxes will drive me out of the state.  Probably when I want to start my own business.

Edited to add - if the UP would form its own state with conservative policies and taxes,  I would move there in a heartbeat.  I absolutely loved it up there.  Oh how I want to go back - wait I am going camping at Two Heart for four days next weekend!

Quoted: You already left once. Why did you go back?

At the end of 2000 the economy was sliding into recession, and I was a contractor for IBM at the time. Just when IBM was getting ready to start whackin their contractors, I was offered a high paying job as an consultant with another company. The only catch was that I had to move back to Michigan. I left IBM 7 weeks before all of the contractors in my group got the axe.

Quoted: try ohio. our slogan is: we suck slightly less than michigan!

+1

When I retire in 2 years I'm moving to the UP it's really not michigan. Get out and vote pester and disrupt. Run for office. Write to papers . Join MCRGO do your part. STOP LEVIN.

How can you live in a state where you can't even make a left hand turn?

Quoted: How can you live in a state where you can't even make a left hand turn?

You can make a left hand turn in Michigan. You just have to go a 1/4 mile past your intersection and make it through a median!

I'm right behind you! Detroit sucks donkey ass big time. I've had to drive downtown for work for nearly 11 years now. I go to my property near Ludington, my blood pressure is nice and low -- 110 over 70. Dealing with these scumbags in Detroit day after day, I check the pressure -- 188 over 110.

Worst part is that Detroit controls politics for the entire state -- I have never ever had as much of a visceral, all-consuming hatred for a place than that I have for Detroit.

I better stop now before I stroke out.

Detroit has always been run by thug gorillas.  Look at the one in there now.  They lined their pockets while the people suffer.  But the damn fools elect another one in every term.  Archer a decent realistic mayor got run out of town.

Quoted: I go to my property near Ludington, my blood pressure is nice and low -- 110 over 70. Dealing with these scumbags in Detroit day after day, I check the pressure -- 188 over 110.

I have a friend who is talking about moving to Ludington.  What is it like there? Western Michigan in general?

I'm not ready to give up on Michigan either, the outdoors here is awesome.  If we could get rid of Granholm and her bullshit "revenue enhancement" schemes, it will get better.  The thing with the property tax is bullshit, imagine what she would try and get away with if the Dems ran the legislature.

All the more reason to be vocal against the Dems at every chance.

Michigan is so bad that I moved to California 15 years ago. Even with our state AWB its a better place for gun owners than Michigan. I couldnt stand that stupid pistol purchsase permit system. three trips just to buy a gun.

The one thing both Michagan and Cali have in common is foreign born Govenors who speak english as a second language.

Michigan is a great state...unfortunatly our conjoined twin, Detroit, sucks and is as powerful as the rest of the state combined.
We can enjoy the weather of all four seasons (although winter is a bit long).
We are surrounded by freshwater lakes for fishing and boating.
We have a great hunting tradition.
We have many camping and vacation spots.

We don't have hurricanes
We don't have earthquakes
We don't have forest fires
We don't have major flooding

Yea, our Governor is stupid
The MIAWB will not happen
And Ludington would be a nice place to live

As an insurance agent who sells mostly to MI, IL, OH, and TN, I can tell you for a fact that MI, especially in the Detroit area, has THE HIGHEST insurance rates in the nation for both auto and home insurance.  Where I pay $700 a year for my car insurance for 2 cars, you would pay $2100 a year for the same coverages in Detroit.  Where I pay $350 a year for home insurance you would pay $1200 a year.  And lets not even talk about taxes.

LEAVE NOW!

Quoted: You forgot to add that your Governor is trying to give Toyota a piece of state land for 9 million dollars when other buys have already offered over 20 million dollars for it.  Not only is she trying to short change the citizens of the state on the purchase price but Toyota is a foreign owned company in direct competition with the largest US car companies and employer in the state of Michigan.  In addition Toyota, at least at the plant here in Kentucky is non-union.

Toyota will just build it elsewhere, and someone else will get the jobs created. I don't know the particulars of the deal, but I bet the jobs are worth more than the 11 million dollars.
Part of the problem Detroit area auto related companies face is that Detroit is no longer the motor city. Foreign auto makers are opening plants all over the US and taking all of the associated manufacturing jobs with them. GM has a few new facilities in MI, but many of the Southern states are getting the bulk of new plants. For myself, I'd rather have them here. As lousy as MI is for gun owners, there are a lot of plusses to living here.

Quoted: Let's be honest. Michigan is great. Detroit is what sucks. Time and History proves that Michigan lost the War of Toledo. Too many liberal, union spoiled babys from Detroit is the problem. Michigan is really 3 separate regions within the state. ...The Upper Pennisula, Detroit, and everywhere else. If we could get rid of Detroit, things would be much better! (the above is not intended to apply to any one individual).

You got it.

And the weather only sucks for 2 months of the year, and they are almost over.

Quoted: Michigan is so bad that I moved to California 15 years ago. Even with our state AWB its a better place for gun owners than Michigan. I couldnt stand that stupid pistol purchsase permit system. three trips just to buy a gun.

It's a pain to buy a pistol, but it's a lot easier to pack it here, isn't it?
Oh, and next week, all of my ARs will be unrestricted, and I can buy more, at will.
How again, is Cali better?

Quoted: Oh how I want to go back - wait I am going camping at Two Heart for four days next weekend!

^^^^This is the reason I love MI.  My wife and I canoed the Two Hearted River the weekend princess Di was killed.  Loved it except for the all the logs over the upper section of the river.

My wife is from the UP (Ontonagon) and I lived 6 years in the Soo.  After that I lived 4 years in Traverse City and 2 in Kalkaska.  My best friends live in Petosky.  I am willing to move to those areas in a second.  They are what MI is about to me: easy access to The Great Lakes, prime hunting, fishing, hiking, canoeing, snowmobiling, skiing areas.  All my recreation needs are met within an 45 minute drive from any of the cities I've mentioned in N MI.

Now I live in SE MI due to the lack of engineering jobs in N MI.  I agree with your thoughts if you are forming your opinion based only on what you see in SE MI.  If you have winter hobbies and are an outdoors person try out N MI.  I guarantee you might like it.

Kent

I was born and raised in Michigan.  Left in 76 when I joined the military.

Home is now Texas, and I will not move back to Michigan.  My entire family has bailed from there, except my sister.  And I'm working on her.

But Good Lord how I miss bon fires at New Swanze Lake!  Sugar Loaf.  Hogs Back. Camping on the shore of Superior.  Playing hockey at NMU and Lakeview.  Riding my snow machine to school. Sully's Log Cabin (Aurora, Wisc.), cardboard sled race at ---egad!  I can't remember the name of the ski hill in Marquette.  

I'll always remember with fondness the Michigan I grew up in.  Still wear a Detroit Tigers hat, and barely keep track of sports there.  

But I'll be damned before I'll live in a cesspool like Michigan again.

I have seen a trend coming from Michigan, and it starts in the Ann Arbor area, moves up to Lansing and then across to Grand Rapids by way of Kalamazoo.  

It's a college-student-rebellion liberal mindset that is seen as trendy and progressive in a state that is largely conservative.  More than a little unsettling.  Someone needs to get that fucking governor a clue, they need to start listening to the regular folks that live out in the boondocks too.

I plan on moving as soon as college is over. Arizona or Texas maybe.

All the bad things folks said about Michigan and no one mentioned Michael Moore!

I've only spent a couple of days there. Beautiful state, too bad about Detroit.

Quoted: Quoted: Michigan is so bad that I moved to California 15 years ago. Even with our state AWB its a better place for gun owners than Michigan. I couldnt stand that stupid pistol purchsase permit system. three trips just to buy a gun. It's a pain to buy a pistol, but it's a lot easier to pack it here, isn't it?

Not really. remeber in Michigan you need a hunting license, CCW permit, or a range membership card to lawfully transport an unloaded and cased handgun to the range.

In Cali we have open carry, unlicensed CCW is only a misdemeanor ticket, and you can carry concealed at your campsite just like in your home.  Try unlicensed CCW at a state park in Michigan.

Quoted: Quoted: I go to my property near Ludington, my blood pressure is nice and low -- 110 over 70. Dealing with these scumbags in Detroit day after day, I check the pressure -- 188 over 110. I have a friend who is talking about moving to Ludington.  What is it like there? Western Michigan in general?

I am in Tyrone township, near the small village of Kent City, which I think is a whole lot nicer and more peaceful than anywhere east of US23.  I commute 31 miles to the SE side of Grand Rapids for work, and the traffic on the worst day here is nowhere near as bad as the best morning commute into Detroit.  It is closer for me to drive to Muskegon than it is to drive into work.

Kent City is more or less the dividing line right now between suburban Grand Rapids and the Country.  North of my place - towards Newaygo or White Cloud gets a lot more "countrified" and less crowded than even where I am at.  It reminds me of the eastern UP in some spots.

I have found life here to be much more laid back than SE Michigan, or the MBS area, and I would say that the most evidence of this is on the highways, but it can also be seen in the small town hardware store, the ice cream shop, or the local restaurant.

I like Michigan. It is a lot better than many other places.

Quoted: In my line of work (automotive design) I could triple my salary by moving up there.  *SNIP*

..And you would have to look for a new job/and or/ scared to lose your job every six months. Lay-offs happen like weekends...there is at least one a week it seems.

Quoted: Michigan is really 3 separate regions within the state. ...The Upper Pennisula, Detroit, and everywhere else.

This is very true...

Quoted: In my line of work (automotive design) I could triple my salary by moving up there.  But it ain't no place for a father w/ girls at 11 &17 years old, or a farmboy.  Since I'm both I'll make due with what I've got right here. I've been through that hell hole on business trips.  NO THANKS!

Seriously, if you are willing to drive like 40 minutes to work or so, there are some beautiful places north of Detroit.  Most automotive companies are in the suburbs.  

But Granholm and Kilpatrick have to go.

cardboard sled race at ---egad!  I can't remember the name of the ski hill in Marquette.

You speak of Cliff's Ridge now known as Marquette Mountain.

Granholm has completely screwed every group that got her elected.  Teachers, unions, state employees but as usual those groups are too damn blind to realize it.

I'm situated along the east coast about 200 miles north of the open sewer that is Detroit.  As stated, the infection that is Detroit is spreading north...Flint & Saginaw have been in decline for sometime.
This part of the state isn't the most prosperous but I can exercise my right to keep and bear arms in my backyard anytime I choose.  Hunting, fishing & general recreation is just out my back door or though an open window if need be

As for da U.P. eh? If statehood were in the cards for that precious jewel, I think the libs in Marquette (majority population center) would have it ruined in no time.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Michigan is so bad that I moved to California 15 years ago. Even with our state AWB its a better place for gun owners than Michigan. I couldnt stand that stupid pistol purchsase permit system. three trips just to buy a gun. It's a pain to buy a pistol, but it's a lot easier to pack it here, isn't it? Not really. remeber in Michigan you need a hunting license, CCW permit, or a range membership card to lawfully transport an unloaded and cased handgun to the range. In Cali we have open carry, unlicensed CCW is only a misdemeanor ticket, and you can carry concealed at your campsite just like in your home.  Try unlicensed CCW at a state park in Michigan.

The Veer transportation bill took care of all the transportation issues you mentioned for those w/o a CCW.  Unlicensenced CCW is a problem...  But if you have a CCW, like I do, no issues not even a misdemeanor ticket away from the campsite.  Open carry is o.k., at least in the woods.  I've taked with a CO while open carrying w/o any problems.

So how is CA better?  As long as I have my CCW (actually CPL in MI) I'm more free than you.

Kent

I live near Saginaw, Michigan. If you want real government problems...

As background, the city council is majority black/mexican (chosen mostly by the pastors and priests) and a few whites. The city manager was also white, and was trying to clean up some of the more serious problems. The city treasurer was not only black, but was vice-president of the local NAACP chapter. The city spent money on things like annual trips for the city council and top admin to Japan and Sun City SA. At the same time the treasurer decided not to collect personal property taxes on black-owned businesses, and there was some embezzlement (not clear who in the city yet), and checks have been blown hot by the city for almost a year.

All this was about to come out because the manager was investigating, and the manager was quickly fired in a midnight vote by the minority council members. They promoted her black deputy, who was (in a shock for them I'm sure) enough of a man to be loyal to his oath and he canned the tresurer and started an official and police investigation.

Mind you that the minority council is selected/run by the pastors and priests of which Washington is the most powerful in town, now that the gay bishop is dead, owning two churches outright and controlling several others. The other people involved in the news story are a father and son who are trying to save the city, even though they are white.

Both recalls given green light Wednesday, September 01, 2004 MIKE THOMPSON THE SAGINAW NEWS A pair of groups seeking recalls of Saginaw City Council members both received ballot language approval from the County Elections Commission this morning. Both pursuits of ousters are linked to the council's 5-4 vote at 12:20 a.m. on Aug. 10, after a lengthy meeting, to fire Deborah Kimble as city manager. Petitioners now must collect at least 3,903 signatures, representing 25 percent of the 15,612 voters who participated in the 2002 governor's election, to place recalls on the ballot early next year. If petitioners follow through, each targeted council member is subject to an individual up-or-down vote to remain in office. Approval today came from the county panel of Clerk Susan S. Kaltenbach, Treasurer Marvin D. Hare and Circuit Court Family Division Judge Faye M. Harrison. Allan and Gregory Schmid, father and son, want to remove council members Daniel G. Soza Jr. and Roma Thurin as "ringleaders" of the vote to dismiss Kimble. They said they did not include Mayor Wilmer Jones Ham and Councilman Amos O'Neal because the two have apologized for their votes, and that they omitted Councilman Willie Haynes as a "follower" of Soza and Thurin. Haynes has asserted that he acts independently. The Schmids' petitions state that Soza and Thurin "helped instigate a midnight plot for the sudden and unwarranted termination of City Manager Deborah Kimble, despite good performance ratings and public support, without warning or opportunity for citizen input or open debate, and in order to advance an irresponsible personal agenda, which included reduction of the police budget, all against the best interests and safety of the residents and taxpayers of the City of Saginaw. " Community activists Charles E. Conner and the Rev. Otis O. Washington Sr. responded with petitions to recall Kimble's four supporters -- Mayor Pro Tem Carol B. Cottrell, the Rev. Charles H. Coleman Sr., Dennis D. Browning and Andy Coulouris. Conner and Washington flip-flopped some of the Schmids' language but submitted spelling errors that Kaltenbach said will go on the ballot. Each of the four has separate errors. For example, the petition against Coulouris states that he "helped instigate a plot to undermind the warrented termination of City Manager Deborah Kimble, despite her lack of performance and irresponsibile personal agenda, which included the mis-management of tyhe City's budget. All against the best interest of the taxpayer." The election panel told Conner and Washington that they could resubmit the petitions with corrected language, but they rejected the offer. If either group succeeds in gathering enough signatures, the taxpayers' cost for a special recall election is about $25,000, said Acting City Clerk Diane M. Herman. t Mike Thompson covers city government for The Saginaw News. You may reach him at 776-9691.

Quoted: I couldnt stand that stupid pistol purchsase permit system. three trips just to buy a gun. Quoted: It's a pain to buy a pistol, but it's a lot easier to pack it here, isn't it? Not really. remeber in Michigan you need a hunting license, CCW permit, or a range membership card to lawfully transport an unloaded and cased handgun to the range. In Cali we have open carry, unlicensed CCW is only a misdemeanor ticket, and you can carry concealed at your campsite just like in your home.  Try unlicensed CCW at a state park in Michigan. Ah, so it's okay to carry CCW illegally because it's only a misdemeanor I think I'll just do the paperwork.

It ain't perfect, but it still beats the PRK system.

Quoted: Granholm has completely screwed every group that got her elected.  Teachers, unions, state employees but as usual those groups are too damn blind to realize it.

Boy, now if only she'd come out pro-gun, she'd have my vote.
Even my staunchly conservative uncle admits that Engler dumped a big mess in her lap. I won't vote for her because she isn't pro-gun, but it doesn't bother me if she screws those groups over.