User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:30:55 AM EDT
[#1]
The SEALS would have done a better job, not sure about SWAT, the FBI would have screwed it up worse than the Russians. They aren't good for anything
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:33:23 AM EDT
[#2]
Seals would have done much better than the ruskies, but in this type of situation...there are no winners. There is always collateral damage.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:33:42 AM EDT
[#3]
More importantly How would the Fatbody Rapid Response Team from AR15.com handled it?
They would have argued over what ammo, what sight, what length of barrel, what BDU, and which grip to use for the mission. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:35:11 AM EDT
[#4]
i'm still amazed that so many hostages died. i mean, wtf?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:38:24 AM EDT
[#5]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:38:33 AM EDT
[#6]
Difference is in the training. It sounds like the Russians had complete control of the building so taking it over without loss of life would have been next to impossible. The difference is that SEALs, SAS, and DELTA practice these alot, because they have the budgets to allow for training. The Russians do not, and that is why the battle lasted for hours instead of minutes. From news reports it sounds as though the Russians were very disorganized outside and only stormed the building after the explosion and Terrorist's started shooting hostages. Terrible outcome, although not the Russians fault, the loss of life should have been alot less. And I cannot believe some terrorist's escaped. How in the world do they have the building surrounded with that much time to prepare and terrorists find ways to get past them is beyond me......
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:38:40 AM EDT
[#7]
FBI would have burned the place to the ground. They haven't had an opportunity to kill that many kids in a long time
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:40:02 AM EDT
[#8]
We only need look at COlumbine to see how it woudl have been handled.
We would still be acrting out dead childrens bodies, days later. Eventually, and with enough fo these kinds of things under our belt, I presume we will become proficent. It is going to be a bad time until then. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:40:34 AM EDT
[#9]
Not sure about the rest of 'em but this is what it'd look like if FBI SWAT was involved:
 Mike |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:40:49 AM EDT
[#10]
No that would be the ATF that would have burned it to the ground 
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:42:33 AM EDT
[#11]
The Russian military have my sympathy on this one. The terrs had the whole building rigged with mines/explosives, and it sounds like one of them went off by accident, possibly setting off others. The whole gym collapsed. I'm not sure, in this case, that Western hostage-rescue doctrine or SEALS/FBI/SAS would have fared significantly better. Maybe faster response, better cordon and faster cleanup... not sure how much lower the body count would have been though.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:44:17 AM EDT
[#12]
The ATF shot it up. The FBI Hostage Roasting Team burned it down. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:45:07 AM EDT
[#13]
The SAS, they are the standard that all others are judged by.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:46:50 AM EDT
[#14]
They had one of the SAS guys who stormed the Iranian Embassy on British TV giving his opinion. He reckoned it was an almost impossible situation in which to mount a successful rescue operation.
The building was boody trapped to hell with very crowded hostages who were guarenteed to panic (children) once the assault started. He reckoned heavy casualties in the assault team and very heavy casualties among the hostages… pretty much exactly as it turned out. ANdy |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:47:01 AM EDT
[#15]
This made me think of a question who would have jursidiction if it happened in the US, local, state, Federal?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:47:15 AM EDT
[#16]
I don't see the SEAL's taking down buildings in the type of sceniro, That would be the mission for Delta/ FBI HRT teams.
The FBI had Delta operators on-site at Waco, in england it would be the mission of the SAS, who are the best at that type of mission, they are the role model for most other units in the world for counter-hostage situations. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:48:38 AM EDT
[#17]
I don't think anyone has really trained to handle situations with 1000+ hostages.
Lessons learned: -Multiple levels of secure perimeters needed. -Assault team needs to be ready to go ASAP -Murphy's Law applies here (the explosions in the gym caused everything to go sideways) |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:48:59 AM EDT
[#18]
The troops would have had better uniforms and equipment, that is all, the results would have been the same. Once the murderors had control of the school it was over, the Russain forces did a great job, there were survivors, that is not what the murderors planned.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:49:21 AM EDT
[#19]
maybe they’re asking themselves the same question right about now. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:52:02 AM EDT
[#20]
 but in all seriousness...i dont think anyone, SWAT, SEALS, SAS, etc..could have TOTALLY avoided what happened.
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:52:04 AM EDT
[#21]
Careful what/who's version ya believe there: Russian nationalists do not believe Putin's propaganda Kavkaz Center | September 7 2004 Comment: This article is translated from Russian. This is what kind of doubts about the official version of the events in Beslan, North Ossetia, they expressed on the website of the Slavic Union: «The storm did take place, and it was planned; it is evident to anybody whose brains have not yet turned sour under the influence of the well-known substance or under the slow speeches of mister president. And this is actually what the authorities are saying indirectly too. Listen to the mass media – nothing but discrepancies between what one bureaucrat says after another. ORT TV says that the second blast was when Spetznaz (special forces) blew up a wall for the hostages to get out. NTV says that the second blast was when the gunmen detonated a bomb to kill the people. ORT again (some FSB agent) says: 3 terrorists were captured and in the morning they took part in identification of the bodies of other terrorists who were killed. NTV (Deputy Prosecutor General Fridinsky) says: there were 26 terrorists, all of them were eliminated, so far no one has been captured (yeah, right! -- and it’s followed by Putin’s order to block all borders) :)). The version about an 'accidental blast' is laughable, and its 'confirmations' are even more laughable: about 5 testimonies of former hostages, when EACH ONE OF THEM is saying a totally different thing compared to what other ones were saying (one says: a bomb fell from a basketball backboard; another one says: a female suicide bomber blew herself up; the third one says: the gunmen were messing with a tripwire mine and it went off, etc.). The version about an «argument among the gunmen» about whether to leave or to stay is a total idiocy and I’m not going to comment on it. The only thing I can say is that blowing up bombs 'right near you' is a good way to express a disagreement :). There are a few reasons why the version about an intentional blast inside the school is swept aside as well. First, why the hell would the gunmen need to blow up hostages at that moment? One o’clock in the afternoon is a very wrong time for breaking out of the surrounded perimeter, it’s even hard to imagine anything worse than that. Second, after the school compound was stormed, sappers and a couple of top FSB (KGB) officers were hanging around the TV cameras and expressing their surprise at the scale and the quality of how the school was mined. At the same time they were claiming that all explosives were connected with multi-channel wires, which allowed setting off all bombs from many locations inside the school. So why didn’t the gunmen set them off, since they decided to kill the hostages? And here is even more interesting question: how did they manage to detonate just one bomb without detonating the rest of them? And finally, in a confined space the rest of the explosives would have probably gone off by themselves from the shockwave. So, it must have been a pinpoint blast from the outside, which can be confirmed by the way the building was damaged. In order to bring down the roof from the inside, the gunmen would have had to fasten several kilograms of explosives right under it and set them up along one of the walls (judging by the damages done to the roof). Why would they bother doing it in the first place, while they could just kill most of the hostages by using handmade explosive devices set up in the gym (while effect of collapsed roof would be doubtful in this case)? The blast that did take place would have had to make one of the gym’s walls collapse if the explosive devices were set up correctly (and if they were more powerful). Why would the gunmen even need something like that? But most likely, this is exactly what Spetznaz (special forces) wanted to do, so that some of the hostages could leave the building before a presumed detonation of explosive devices by the terrorists. The second blast was from the outside as well, but that time it was in the lower part of the same side wall. It can be confirmed by the fact that the hostages, who were right at the wall at that moment, were not harmed (and afterwards they were one of the first ones to get out of the building). Most likely, that blast was either an addition to the first one (i.e. the mission was to make the wall collapse, but for some reason both blasts were not synchronized and did not occur simultaneously), or it was made in order to let the hostages escape through the windows that were blocked by the gunmen (which is what happened). Russian Emergencies Ministry was used solely for the purpose of diverting the attention of the gunmen (the storming unit had the reasons to assume that most of the militants would concentrate near the school entrance to control the emergency units). However, some of the militants still remained at their positions and on the second floor and opened fire on the Spetznaz units, who attempted to break into the building right after the windows were unblocked. And by the way, the big question still remains: who killed more hostages in the middle of that turmoil – gunmen, special forces, or armed locals, who started shooting at the 'gunmen' running out of the gym? Sure, the government does not want to claim responsibility for the deaths among the hostages; this is why the government made up a script about «forced offensive to defend hostages» (exactly the way it happened during the Moscow theater siege). Probably too early yet to tell where the truth really lies here, only time will tell...... Mike |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:52:17 AM EDT
[#22]
You are correct, I think some units would have have got a few more more hostages out, but in the end a large portion would have died. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:52:44 AM EDT
[#23]
Differently.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:53:11 AM EDT
[#24]
I get so tried about what happened at Columbine high school, why don't you walk through a large high school, one with close to 800 students and tell me how you would take it down. How many rooms are there to clear, wall lockers, locker rooms, electrical closets, the gym, the offices. How do you determine which kids are the ones with the guns, that was a very dynamic situation with no simple solutions. You can not just run into a building with kids inside, shooting away. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:53:42 AM EDT
[#25]
Word. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:53:46 AM EDT
[#26]
the biggest thing that I saw was the lack of any real perimeter. Seems like there were plenty of frendlies (parents, etc) in the line of fire when the shoting started.
Russian society and institutions are getting more third-world every day. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:54:41 AM EDT
[#27]
We'll never really know since it could never happen here. Our schools are gun free zones. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:55:22 AM EDT
[#28]
I believe you mean FBI/HRT (Federal Baby Incinerators/Hostage Roasting Team). |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:56:53 AM EDT
[#29]
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:58:38 AM EDT
[#30]
|
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:59:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Another difference was that news reports had approximately 20 Russian Alpha members killed during the assault, most of them killed by armed citizens trying to help storm the building and save their children who mistakenly shot them as terrorists. This shows that the perimeter was obviously not secure and communication was lacking.....
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 8:59:28 AM EDT
[#32]
Yikes. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:01:12 AM EDT
[#33]
[disclaimer] I am not now, nor have I ever been a part or had affiliation with any Hostage rescue organization, or special operations force, and I have not stayed in a Holiday Inn in a very long time.[/disclaimer]
From watching the video and seeing views of the multi-building campus and hearing that there were possibly 50 or more Terrorists, I have surmised the following: - a 20-1 ratio of rescuers to terrorists would have been needed to assure adequate coverage due to the sheer number of hostages and the large area the campus covered. With 50 terrorsts minimum, this indicates a need for at least 1000 operators and support (air, psy-ops, medical/morgue, etc.) bringing the number to 1500 total involved. - the Terrorists had learned from the Theatre takeover and rescue evidenced by the breaking of windows to facilitate the degrading of any gas agent introduced into the buildings and the 'deadman' switches that many of the terrorists were standing on. Both of these elements render a gas agent attack non-feasible. - the fact that kids were specifically targeted reveals that these terrosits were not primarily interested in negotiations as they had to have known the outrage and resolve this action against kids would generate. In fact, this outrage may have been the desired objective from the beginning. This indicates that all manner of negotiations would have been unsuccessful. With the above noted, it seems very unlikely that ANYONE would have the sufficient force structure to assure a minimal loss of hostages and a complete 'management' of the terrorists. Lets make a couple of assumptions: - Hostages were reported to be 'up to 1500' in number - Terrorists were reported to be as many as 150 in number. - Hostages were held in 3 different buildings/areas on the campus. - Many terrorists were standing on deadman switches (presumably) connected to over 600 lbs (250kg reported) of plastic explosives in the school's gymnasium alone! With the above elements/assumptions, a force of 1000 shooters would be needed to move on all building entrances (doors and windows) with absolute timing and with great force and directed fury. All terrorists would need to fixed in place prior to assault in order to make sure all the bad guys were dealt with at the same time. A great storming of the buildings can be undone if one terrorist happened to be in the john with a remote detonator and killed everyone 2 minutes after entry. With the team work and timing needed, and even if you cut the number of needed operators in half to 500 or even in a quarter to 250, there is not (to my limited knowledge) a spec ops group, Hostage resue unit, or other such with the neccessary training and eqipment that has that kind of personnel numbers. Delta may have that many operators in several different 'teams', but how long would it take to gather them all and seriously train on models and mock-ups to reach a level of needed intricate teamwork on this scale? The Ranger Battalions have more than enough troops and could put a serious hurt on the terrorists... BUT the Rangers are not a surgical tool, more like a sledgehammer. With this scope of hostage taking, a country is left with a simple choice of either: 1. use irregular forces trained for this exact possibility, but the scope is far outside theor abilities to effectively manage the threats, or 2. use regular forces that will dramatically increase the number of hostage KIA/WIA. It seems that the Russians went with a combo of 1 & 2 by having spec ops hit the main gymnasium and try to secure the explosives there and then had regular forces and local police forces hit the other areas where the hostages were being held. Most of the indivdual hostage deaths were in these outbuildings while the gymnasium explosion killed a bunch in one fell swoop. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:02:31 AM EDT
[#34]
They have yahoos in Russia too?  
|
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:03:58 AM EDT
[#35]
It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. For sure, it's very possible that the outcome might have been different, but there's no way to know for sure. The most important fact is that the explosives inside the gym detonated. We don't know for sure exactly how this happened, but once the roof was blown off, the die was cast.
I get a little peeved when I hear all the recriminations blaming the Russian goverment. It's mostly a lot of cry baby "Mommy and Daddy (the government) is SUPPOSED to protect us" nonsense. Bottom line is that a bunch of murderous, disgusting, perverted, depraved, criminals killed a bunch of kids and their teachers in cold blood. THEY are the ones who own the outcome of what they did. And they are the ones who need to be made to pay. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:07:42 AM EDT
[#36]
A team of six for each hallway, you know the students that are dangerous because they are the ones that just shot the lead guy. You and your buddies then neutralize that target. Move on until done. Do not wait until the Terrorists get tired of killing kids, or run out of ammo. Yeah, Yeah, I know, you want to get home to your family that night, but sometimes that is not what you are paid to do. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:09:52 AM EDT
[#37]
They had one of the SAS guys who stormed the Iranian Embassy on British TV giving his opinion. He reckoned it was an almost impossible situation in which to mount a successful rescue operation.
i agree with his statement. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:15:29 AM EDT
[#38]
That simple huh, my High school had 3 floors, how many teams would you need then, you have to make sure each team knows it's area and understand the plan. What happens if someone shoots the wrong kid, who takes on that lawsuit. |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:15:32 AM EDT
[#39]
Now... Where have we heard this discussed before?? Oh yea, that's right... The ARFCOM woyld you go in after your kids thread! |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:18:28 AM EDT
[#40]
From my limited understanding, the Terrorists who were causing the distubance woudl be to blame, or do you mean the civil suit? THe county I woudl gather, if not them, then the feds. Are you tryign to tell me, in all seriousness, that the threat of future litigation stops you from saving kids? No problem. My mileage varies there. |
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:19:58 AM EDT
[#41]
Failure is a mighty strong word. Consider the circumstances: You have dozens of gunmen who have taken around 1,000 hostages into one big room that is covered with explosives, AND they don't seem to be trying to negotiate for anythin, meaning their goal is dead hostages. Try and assault that.... Firstly, that is a sucky situation indeed. People will get dead. No way around it. This is what the bad guys want more than anything else, and it WILL happen. Believe it. Secondly, they didn't get to execute a plan. I watched all of this live, and it was a giant mess. Any plan went out the window when those escaping kids were being shot at. The Ruskies had no idea what the devil was going on, and for all they knew the kids were being executed. So fudge the plan and get in there before they kill them all. Would Americans have done it better? Given what the Russians were facing, I don't think they would have done a whole lot better. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:20:33 AM EDT
[#42]
Columbine is not Los Angeles... I'd be suprised if their PD even HAD a 6-man SWAT team.... Things are not that simple... |
|||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:23:16 AM EDT
[#43]
Another lesson is that the standard hostage operations book needs to get thrown out. When the terrorists want dead hostages, time is a luxury you do not have. You have to hit them as quickly as possible with as much as you can hit in the hopes that you can stop them before they harden their position. If the Ruskies had been able to mount something within 30 minutes of the takeover, they might have had a shot at a better situation. After that, however, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:23:31 AM EDT
[#44]
It is never as simple as we can make it on monday morning. Nor is columbine anythign like what happened in russi, other than it being school kids involved. Columbine was doable, Russia was a lost cause form the moment the terrorists got control. It just takes will I gather, the russian alpha teams that used their bodies to draw fire form the kids had the unfortnately right idea, one I woudl hope that the LEO's who ever have to face this situation remember. Kids are more valuable that adults, it is a simple fact. |
||||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:27:10 AM EDT
[#45]
Exactly. We nowknow that any plane that is being hijacked is a doomed flight that could take thousands more with it, we as airline passengers realize this, and I truley hope that we woudl all fight off a hijack attempt, and if they can't fight it off, lets hope the American public understands the hard choice the president has to make to shoot it down. Our LEO's need to move in on a moments notice now, if the russians had gotten inside before the Islamic terrorists planted their bombs, we would still ahve many dead kids, but surely, less dead kids than we have now. I am sure we will get to the point of having ready assault teams that can cover an area and hit within 10 or 15 minutes. It will take a lot of dead kids to get othat point though. |
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:29:15 AM EDT
[#46]
So, why is HRT so crappy? Seeing as how they spend half their time training with CAG, maybe they've picked up a thing or two? And exactly which SEALS are gonna go into a school full of kids? Certainly not DEVGRU...they've been pissing the bed more lately than a group of Depends testers. I'd rather have NYPD ESU or LADP SWAT rescue me than the damned SEALs any day. It's what they do best. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:29:56 AM EDT
[#47]
|
||
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:30:38 AM EDT
[#48]
I think Wiggy's assesment of the situation is pretty good.
Like it or not fellas, our SF guys are just people. They aren't supermen. There is only so much even THEY can do. I guarantee you that all over this country there are military SF and law enforcement SWAT units gathering at tables and pouring over every bit of data they can get. And every one of them is scowling and asking each other "What in the hell are we going to do if this happens here???" The only real way to end something like this well is to break up the attack from the moment it is evident. If the terrorists (how many were there?? Does anybody know??) had been met with sufficient force to destroy them or delay them significantly enough for the calvary to arrive, things would have been different. But once they get hostages and run explosives, game over. You are lucky to get anyone out alive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:32:31 AM EDT
[#49]
Ummm.....Sure....kay..... Whatever you say man. How much time have you spent planning for an op like this to make you qualified to say that? This situation sucked. It could have very easily gone so bad that NOBODY would have come out alive. As it is, the Russians got most of the people out alive. That's pretty good given what they were faced with. |
|
|
|
|
Posted: 9/8/2004 9:33:08 AM EDT
[#50]
The Duke has spoken the truth. |
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
