I wont even bother to mention current events, only that it has been happening for awhile and will continue to do so as long as we allow. We have the power. Yes, we. Not the liberals, not the cops, not the government. Only those so inclined to take upon the burden of self sacrifice of their country and belief has the power. -The gun owning citizen. So, when will we stop subjugating ourselves in our little microcosm of being afraid of hurting the BG's feelings? When will we say we had enough of this? What we are doing now isnt enough, we need to send a message to them, all of them. You know who I am talking about.

It took the people of Spain 700 years before they took the initiative to drive them out of the country once and for all in the 15th century A.D., with extreme prejudice. When will we do the same?

Just what are you advocating?

no comment


Sktar15

oh! oh!  my first time!!  I like PIE!

(do i get anything?)

Quoted: oh! oh!  my first time!!  I like PIE! (do i get anything?)

yeah.......................................................................


There ya go.


SGtar15

Not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting it's time to kick all the Muslims out of this country? Or are you suggesting we go after them harder in the Middle East?

No good can come of this.

I'm advocating that we dispense some teachings of our own.

Quoted: I'm advocating that we dispense some teachings of our own.

If those teachings are .223 rounds into the bodies of random muslims I must say I would not want to be part of LXA. We can make our changes through the ballot box first. There may come a time for armed revolution. BUT THAT TIME IS NOT NOW.

A nice start would be breaking the Islamofascists grip on what they teach in schools. Instead of indoctrinating them with hate for the US and Israel from an early age, it would be nice to actually TEACH them something worthy. It's hard to deal with people who are trained from birth to believe their sole purpose in life is to die while taking out the infidel. Kids in Saudia Arabia, Iran and Pakistan don't get PBS. Sounds like a job for Commando Solo!

Quoted: A nice start would be breaking the Islamofascists grip on what they teach in schools. Instead of indoctrinating them with hate for the US and Israel from an early age, it would be nice to actually TEACH them something worthy. It's hard to deal with people who are trained from birth to believe their sole purpose in life is to die while taking out the infidel. Kids in Saudia Arabia, Iran and Pakistan don't get PBS. Sounds like a job for Commando Solo!

+1

Quoted: Quoted: I'm advocating that we dispense some teachings of our own. If those teachings are .223 rounds into the bodies of random muslims I must say I would not want to be part of LXA. We can make our changes through the ballot box first. There may come a time for armed revolution. BUT THAT TIME IS NOT NOW.

Whoa, that sounds pretty extreme. I was thinking about just grouping some ARFCOM'ers together and visiting a few Mosques and peacefuly work out our differences with them so that we can show each other that we are all human beings... we all have families... we all just want to live our life without persecution... we all feel the same pain when a loved one dies from terroism, no matter who the antagonist... and only if we open our eyes and look into the mirror of each others faces can we see that we are only destroying ourselves as Human beings.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm advocating that we dispense some teachings of our own. If those teachings are .223 rounds into the bodies of random muslims I must say I would not want to be part of LXA. We can make our changes through the ballot box first. There may come a time for armed revolution. BUT THAT TIME IS NOT NOW. Whoa, that sounds pretty extreme. I was thinking about just grouping some ARFCOM'ers together and visiting a few Mosques and peacefuly work out our differences with them so that we can show each other that we are all human beings... we all have families... we all just want to live our life without persecution... we all feel the same pain when a loved one dies from terroism, no matter who the antagonist... and only if we open our eyes and look into the mirror of each others faces can we see that we are only destroying ourselves as Human beings.

I totally misread your post then. Sorry for the accusation.

I intentionally made my post vague to see how each of you would interpret it. I would never condone violence, or at least, would like to maintain that ideal in my own super-ego that I am beyond such primitiveness.

Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe.

Killing is like poison for the soul. If we must kill, it should only be to the protection of the innocent. Such was the case recently. But to continue killing in retaliation is simply not the answer. We seriously need to set things out on the table, leave the past were it lies and only bear it in mind so we may learn from it and become who we should all strive to be in the future. A peaceful nation, a nation under Godly virtue.

Quoted: I intentionally made my post vague to see how each of you would interpret it. I would never condone violence, or at least, would like to maintain that ideal in my own super-ego that I am beyond such primitiveness. Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe. Killing is like poison for the soul. If we must kill, it should only be to the protection of the innocent. Such was the case recently. But to continue killing in retaliation is simply not the answer. We seriously need to set things out on the table, leave the past were it lies and only bear it in mind so we may learn from it and become who we should all strive to be in the future. A peaceful nation, a nation under Godly virtue.

I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that?

Quoted: Quoted: I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that?

WOW! Bright today… isn't it?

I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that?

You'd most likely have to repeat the question a few hundred times as I doubt they hear very well.

Quoted: Quoted: I intentionally made my post vague to see how each of you would interpret it. I would never condone violence, or at least, would like to maintain that ideal in my own super-ego that I am beyond such primitiveness. Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe. Killing is like poison for the soul. If we must kill, it should only be to the protection of the innocent. Such was the case recently. But to continue killing in retaliation is simply not the answer. We seriously need to set things out on the table, leave the past were it lies and only bear it in mind so we may learn from it and become who we should all strive to be in the future. A peaceful nation, a nation under Godly virtue. I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that?

I know. That is why I think we all need to let go of what occured in the past. We can only move forward by letting go of the anchor. Every passing day is a new opportunity to change who we are.

Japan had Hiroshima, but we had pearl Harbor. And we had 9/11. Each nation has had their tragedies, but nobody seems willing to honor the memory of the dead by bringing peace to the living. If we all could follow the teachings of Jesus to the word, we would never have to fear our enemies, because if we could ever reach such an astonishing pinnacle in civilization we would no longer have any.

Quoted: I know. That is why I think we all need to let go of what occured in the past. We can only move forward by letting go of the anchor. Every passing day is a new opportunity to change who we are. Japan had Hiroshima, but we had pearl Harbor. And we had 9/11. Each nation has had their tragedies, but nobody seems willing to honor the memory of the dead by bringing peace to the living. If we all could follow the teachings of Jesus to the word, we would never have to fear our enemies, because if we could ever reach such an astonishing pinnacle in civilization we would no longer have any.

and that is the problem. Humanity is doomed for we will never all follow the teachings of Jesus. We will never all get along and that is why you must always be willing to have a better gun than the other guy.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Japan had Hiroshima,

Yes, but they brought that one down on themselves… it's not equivalent, 9/11 was an unspeakable act of horror and brutality, Hiroshima was an act to STOP unpeakable horror and brutality.

ANdy

Quoted: and that is the problem. Humanity is doomed for we will never all follow the teachings of Jesus. We will never all get along and that is why you must always be willing to have a better gun than the other guy.

Converting the world is not the solution, no matter the religion.  Lest we forget, it is only a small portion of Muslims that believe that the West is evil.  It pains me to see people lumping over a billion people in a group comprised of a few hundred thousand.

Should all white people be lumped in with the KKK and killed because members of our race commited horrible atrocities?  Of course not.  So why would anyone advocate the same of a religion, when only a select few (who we are taking care of) wish us harm?

The rest just want to peacefully convert us, and if that doesn't work, live peacefully with us.  I have an equal number of Muslim friends who like Bush and those that dont like him.  The ones that like him are from the middle east.  


The bashers really should listen to themselves speak.  Its positively {James Earl Jones} disturbing.{/James Earl Jones}

Quoted: I wont even bother to mention current events, only that it has been happening for awhile and will continue to do so as long as we allow. We have the power. Yes, we. Not the liberals, not the cops, not the government. Only those so inclined to take upon the burden of self sacrifice of their country and belief has the power. -The gun owning citizen. So, when will we stop subjugating ourselves in our little microcosm of being afraid of hurting the BG's feelings? When will we say we had enough of this? What we are doing now isnt enough, we need to send a message to them, all of them. You know who I am talking about. It took the people of Spain 700 years before they took the initiative to drive them out of the country once and for all in the 15th century A.D., with extreme prejudice. When will we do the same?

time to learn to spell

I think I was too vague again.

I try to avoid using Jesus in my arguement because it either automatically makes the listener deaf or gives them the wrong idea. I dont think we need to convert the world to Christianity. I do not call myself a Christian, but I believe in the teachings of Jesus. I also believe that Buddha had it right on. It doesn't matter who said it. The fact is they are good rules to live by for anybody. They knew the evils of the world and knew exactly what it took to stop it. Absolute compassion for your enemies. This doesnt mean you need to let yourself get killed, it simply means you must be willing to sacrifice what it takes to achieve peace. The problem is we are often so closed to the plight of others. We only often see what we can benefit from an arguement and not what we can offer in good faith toward a peacful era for this world.

We need to invest our life into making our enemies our friends, not finding new and better ways to weed them out and kill them.

Quoted: Just what are you advocating?

Lately it seems to me that our resident neo-fascists are seething for an American Kristallnacht.

Quoted: Quoted: I wont even bother to mention current events, only that it has been happening for awhile and will continue to do so as long as we allow. We have the power. Yes, we. Not the liberals, not the cops, not the government. Only those so inclined to take upon the burden of self sacrifice of their country and belief has the power. -The gun owning citizen. So, when will we stop subjugating ourselves in our little microcosm of being afraid of hurting the BG's feelings? When will we say we had enough of this? What we are doing now isnt enough, we need to send a message to them, all of them. You know who I am talking about. It took the people of Spain 700 years before they took the initiative to drive them out of the country once and for all in the 15th century A.D., with extreme prejudice. When will we do the same? time to learn to spell

Tell that to my English 100 college instructor who gave me an A and told me that my writing is brilliant and should consider creative writing as a career.

Besides, it is very late and I can barely keep my eyes open. Cut me some slack.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wont even bother to mention current events, only that it has been happening for awhile and will continue to do so as long as we allow. We have the power. Yes, we. Not the liberals, not the cops, not the government. Only those so inclined to take upon the burden of self sacrifice of their country and belief has the power. -The gun owning citizen. So, when will we stop subjugating ourselves in our little microcosm of being afraid of hurting the BG's feelings? When will we say we had enough of this? What we are doing now isnt enough, we need to send a message to them, all of them. You know who I am talking about. It took the people of Spain 700 years before they took the initiative to drive them out of the country once and for all in the 15th century A.D., with extreme prejudice. When will we do the same? time to learn to spell Tell that to my English 100 college instructor who gave me an A and told me that my writing is brilliant and should consider creative writing as a career. Besides, it is very late and I can barely keep my eyes open. Cut me some slack.

I think he was refering to himself.

Quoted: If we all could follow the teachings of Jesus to the word

Eureka!!  we'll convert the Muslims!!


I bet thats never been tried before.  

While such a thing would be a noble undertaking, it won't have much effect. The terrorists have no interest in negotiating except when doing so would be in their favor. They also have no interest in a peaceful co-existence. If so, they would not be attacking others around the world on a daily basis because they have different religious preferences. The only solution is to let them identify themselves as terrorists, then kill them. Repeat as necessary.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I intentionally made my post vague to see how each of you would interpret it. I would never condone violence, or at least, would like to maintain that ideal in my own super-ego that I am beyond such primitiveness. Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe. Killing is like poison for the soul. If we must kill, it should only be to the protection of the innocent. Such was the case recently. But to continue killing in retaliation is simply not the answer. We seriously need to set things out on the table, leave the past were it lies and only bear it in mind so we may learn from it and become who we should all strive to be in the future. A peaceful nation, a nation under Godly virtue. I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that? I know. That is why I think we all need to let go of what occured in the past. We can only move forward by letting go of the anchor. Every passing day is a new opportunity to change who we are. Japan had Hiroshima, but we had pearl Harbor. And we had 9/11. Each nation has had their tragedies, but nobody seems willing to honor the memory of the dead by bringing peace to the living. If we all could follow the teachings of Jesus to the word, we would never have to fear our enemies, because if we could ever reach such an astonishing pinnacle in civilization we would no longer have any.

I cannot believe Hiroshima is mentioned in the same breath as Pearl & 9/11.

Is that what they are teaching in schools these days?

The former was to end a conflict, and a choice over a land invasion which, by all estimates, would have cost millions of lives.

Pearl & 9/11 were both first-strike attacks.

If your teacher is telling you that they are the same then he or she needs to get their revisionist-history ass the fuck out of the school system and we taxpayers deserve a refund (from the NEA & AFT) on monies we provided for your "education"

(Yes I have read Hersey, and no, atomic warfare is nothing to be dismissed, but the fundamentals are so absolutely, profoundly different, that I am outraged that one would even think to equate the actions at Nagasaki & Hiroshima with 9/11)

I GOT DIBS ON DRIVING THE SUBMARINE!!!  

"A time to be born, a time to die...
A time to kill, a time to heal...
A time of love a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace..."


Not hard to figure out which it is time for.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wonder what the city fathers of Hiroshima would say about that? WOW! Bright today… isn't it? img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/macandy/nuclearblast.jpg

Look, it's allah! Look into the light my pretties.

Quoted: I intentionally made my post vague to see how each of you would interpret it. I would never condone violence, or at least, would like to maintain that ideal in my own super-ego that I am beyond such primitiveness. Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe. Killing is like poison for the soul. If we must kill, it should only be to the protection of the innocent. Such was the case recently. But to continue killing in retaliation is simply not the answer. We seriously need to set things out on the table, leave the past were it lies and only bear it in mind so we may learn from it and become who we should all strive to be in the future. A peaceful nation, a nation under Godly virtue.

Beautiful bit of satire. You ought to train our DU infiltrators. We'd be unstoppable over there.

Quoted: Violence is a vicious circle which solves nothing. It only creates a healthy ring of animosity for everybody. As much as the events which have occured lately cause me much sorrow, I cannot allow such emotions to drive my actions. Logicaly, all we can do is offer peace in return. Not gunfire. People die everyday by the hands of man or not. That is a simple constant in the universe.

From Heinlein:




One girl told him bluntly: “My mother says violence never solves anything.”
“So?” Mr. Dubois looked at her bleakly. “I’m sure the city fathers of Carthage would be glad to know that. Why doesn’t your mother tell them so? Or why don’t you?”

They had tangled before – since you couldn’t flunk the course, it wasn’t necessary to keep Mr. Dubois buttered up. She said shrilly, “You’re making fun of me! Everybody knows that Carthage was destroyed!”

“You seem to be unaware of it,” he said grimly. “Since you do know it, wouldn’t you say that violence had settled their destinies rather thoroughly? However, I was not making fun of you personally; I was heaping scorn on an inexcusably silly idea – a practice I shall always follow. Anybody who clings to the historically untrue – and thoroughly immoral – doctrine that ‘violence never solves anything’ I would advise to conjure up the ghosts of Napoleon Bonaparte and the Duke of Wellington and let them debate it. The ghost of Hitler could referee, and the jury might well be the Dodo, the Great Auk, and the Passenger Pigeon. Violence, naked force, has settled more issues in history than has any other factor, and the contrary opinion is wishful thinking at its worst. Breeds that forget this basic truth have always paid for it with their lives and their freedom.”

Quoted: I wont even bother to mention current events, only that it has been happening for awhile and will continue to do so as long as we allow. We have the power. Yes, we. Not the liberals, not the cops, not the government. Only those so inclined to take upon the burden of self sacrifice of their country and belief has the power. -The gun owning citizen. So, when will we stop subjugating ourselves in our little microcosm of being afraid of hurting the BG's feelings? When will we say we had enough of this? What we are doing now isnt enough, we need to send a message to them, all of them. You know who I am talking about. It took the people of Spain 700 years before they took the initiative to drive them out of the country once and for all in the 15th century A.D., with extreme prejudice. When will we do the same?

Ok, MY first time... AGNTSA...

The problem isn't Islam. It's not American Muslims vs the rest of us. It is about a foreign enemy vs the USA. There is no world-wide Islamic revolution, and in fact there are a few examples, such as Turkey, where Islam and Secular Democracy can & do work... Further, we do not have a revolutionary movement problem in the USA today (well, we have some who wish we did, but for the most part they are libertarians, extreme liberals/socialists, or extreme conservatives) Drawing implications from the Russian/Chechen War, Israel/PLO, or India/Pakistan is not valid here, as these are seperatist/revolutionary conflicts (In Russia it's not even religeous in the slightest)....

All we have to do to win the WOT is 'fix' the middle east. Listen to President Bush's acceptance speech, weather you think it is too 'idealistic' or not, THAT is the only solution. We spread democracy thru the middle east/central asia, by force if neccicary.

Ok, first of all I wasnt trying to compare Hiroshima with 9/11. I was merely stating that every country has had some tragic event occur to them by the hands of the other. That is why I also mentioned Pearl Harbor with Hiroshima. I know the bombs which were dropped was to end  the conflict, but it killed over 240 thousand civilians combined, not including the soldiers.

the, thanks, but I was being sincere.

Napalm, can you tell me the story where one war has ended all wars for all time? Because since Carthage, it has only been a string of wars throughout civlization up till today. My point stands correct. -doesn't solve anything, just continues the cycle.

Dave_A, I've been avoiding tv for the better part of 6 months, except for the snippets of news I hear on ARFCOM. What did Bush propose?

Quoted: Napalm, can you tell me the story where one war has ended all wars for all time? Because since Carthage, it has only been a string of wars throughout civlization up till today. My point stands correct. -doesn't solve anything, just continues the cycle.

You missed the point. The purpose of violence isn't to stop violence; that's a ridiculous assertion and it will never happen. Humans have been fighting tooth and nail and killing each other since the dawn of time. It's not about to be solved by someone's little spat.

Conflict/war/violence is a never-ending thing, and will NEVER go away regardless of someone's high-minded ideals. Those that continue to shout "Violence never solves anything!" and refuse to use violence will get their shit settled FOREVER by people that will use violence. The point is that the Carthaginians had their issues settled/solved because they all died and didn't have to worry about their issues anymore because they are frickin' dead.


Get there firstest with the mostest.

The problem as I have experienced first hand is how a particular Muslim inerprets the Koran. If they believe the Koran to say be tolerant of all religions, there is no problem.

If they believe the Koran tells them to kill all non-believers, you can not reason with them. Period.

The Koran also tells them not to be friends with non-belivers.

Ok, now what?




The locals get real quiet when I tell them I read the Koran and quote a few Surrahs.

Quoted: Quoted: Napalm, can you tell me the story where one war has ended all wars for all time? Because since Carthage, it has only been a string of wars throughout civlization up till today. My point stands correct. -doesn't solve anything, just continues the cycle. You missed the point. The purpose of violence isn't to stop violence; that's a ridiculous assertion and it will never happen. Humans have been fighting tooth and nail and killing each other since the dawn of time. It's not about to be solved by someone's little spat. Conflict/war/violence is a never-ending thing, and will NEVER go away regardless of someone's high-minded ideals. Those that continue to shout "Violence never solves anything!" and refuse to use violence will get their shit settled FOREVER by people that will use violence. The point is that the Carthaginians had their issues settled/solved because they all died and didn't have to worry about their issues anymore because they are frickin' dead. Get there firstest with the mostest.

I understand that there are times when diplomacy fails. These are times when you have no choice but to defend yourself with the sword. I may sound pacifist, but I am no Ghandi. However, in our current situation I personally believe that much bloodshed can be spared with more open minded debates. Too often its an all or nothing event.

BTW, kind of related to the Carthage story. When the Romans leveled Carthage and killed everyone therin they named it the "Carthaginian Peace"

TANGOCHASER, I hate to sound like I am defending Muslims, but not all of them take the Qu'ran so literally. Just as with every religion, there are the slackers who never attend church, or have pre-marital sex, or just basically do one thing and say the other because of their religion. Islam is no different. They have their slackers who do not agree with the terrorism.

Unfortunately the Muslim Zealots are the vast majority of this religion. However you have to look at some reasons why they hate us. We f'd them over pretty bad during the Crusades, its possible they are still seriously sour over this. Prior to the crusades, Muslims, Christians, and even Jews did live in and around each other with little trouble at one point during history. We must also admit that if it wherent for the Muslims we wouldn't have some of the more advanced mathmatics today, and while Christians where burning the writings of Homer, Plato and other anchient Greek philosophers, the Muslims, surpringly, valued such knowledge and preserved it. The Muslims of old did a great contribution to the civilization of today by saving such invaluable history. Imagine what the world would be like today if early christians had their way and destroyed all historical records before that point. Its a shame modern day Muslims dont see things the same way.