Here is my rant. It was headed toward another thread- but there is no future for that thread. So here is my rant in its own thread. An Agnostic idealism, for clear heads not dazzled by the thought of a church or a holy book. Please read and let me know what you think. I do expect plenty of hate from people who dont agree, but please keep it civilized. I do wish for a friendly banter amogst anyone who challenges and I do expect plenty of prayers for my "soul", so thank you for those prayers in advance. Also If any of this makes sense to you, leave a reply or an IM.

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LOL, when will religions ever catch up to me, never I hope. Am I the only one who can see there is no light in the darkness of religion? How many people died throughout the ages under the guise "my religion is better than yours?" or book interpretations or simply "my book says that your religion is wrong" Suprise!...Its all marketing folks! When will man realize that they cannot fight what they do not know? Man fears the unknown so he puts up a set of rules(even if they are wrong) a set of rules so that they have aim in life. Most people I know are scared, scared of living, scared of death, it doesnt matter, they are simply scared- and religion or a belief in a God is a tempting comfort - an explaination for all, how to live- and how to die.

   You don’t know what is at the end. So making up a cryptic story, or following someone else’s crafted religion isn’t going to help you, its only going to lead you down their road of false hopes for their bidding- hopes that you are doing right by God, and in that is where death and hatred lies- in Gods of fancy. There is no God that you should worship, until proven otherwise; and not by hear-say, but cold hard evidence is proven to exist, nothing should rely on faith except for a mans foolish hope. I would rather die a man free of any God than trick myself into believing anything just so I can feel good and cozy on my death bed, I respect myself more than that. Some say that "no man dies godless" because they all pray to a god on their death bed, and that may be true, however have you ever given the thought that maybe that the last true test of ones self is not giving in to the temptation of submission to something(God), but maybe you pass the test if you die with your integrity of not bowing before a Lord, not giving in to the temptation of a comfortable God and heaven. Maybe religious beliefs are the lure, and resisting the lure to the end will open yourself to the mutual respect of____....I cant speculate on "what", that is part of the test.

I am an agnostic, but I am very PRO religion.

I think religion gives people something to believe in and people need something to believe in.

Religion brings out the best in people, for I have seen it.

Even if there isnt a god, which i highly suspect is the truth, religion is very useful.

It gives people a morality compass.

It gives people hope.

Hell I go to church every sunday because it reassures me that mankind has more to it than savages killing innocent children.

God Bless Religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that if you want to find God, he will reveal himself to you, but if you are dissoultioned then you will never know the truth. Now, God has not revealed himself to me, and as far as I know, he doesn't exist. However, I am still searching for the truth, whatever it may be. I hope that if God does exist, that he will one day reveal himself to me.

Your view is a humanistic one. The only truth is what one can reason to by himself. However there are many things to which we cannot reason to, and God is one of them. To say that God must not exist, simply because you can't reason to his existance, would be a cop-out to someone who is either too lazy to want to look for God, or someone who wants to live their life by their own relativistic moral code without fear of reprisal.

By the way, you are an Athiest really, not an Agnostic. Keep in mind that Athiesm is just as much a faith as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, or Islam is. A faith that there is no God. Now that is a disturbing concept, if you ask me.

No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise.

So you don't know what the truth is, but you do know that what I believe is wrong?

Someone hasn't thought through their ideology much.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Quoted: So you don't know what the truth is, but you do know that what I believe is wrong? Someone hasn't thought through their ideology much. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Any how can you prove your ideology is right? Someone hasn't thought through their religion much?

Im guessing your religion is based on Hear-say and faith, not cold hard facts. Right my friend?

Why are you going out of your way to destroy religion?

It has its benifits for society.

Quoted: No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise.

I reread your post, and yes, you are an athiest. An agnostic is someone who either says "I don't know if God exists", or someone who says "I believe in God, but I don't think it is possible for man to know him." You basically have the Marxist view of religion, that it is "the opiate of the masses". This is a distinctly athiestic point of view.

So many religions, so much time to kill each other off.

Quoted: Why are you going out of your way to destroy religion? It has its benifits for society.

Sure it has benifits, like passifying the masses. Lies can do wonderful things if you can get enough people to believe them. Im not against religion- it does have its place. But every benefit has its ugly brother, take for instance the Russian school. It was held hostage by persons motivated by a religeous belief- they thought they were doing right. Religion is very powerful, especially in war. If you can get a soldier to fight for a wage- he's only going to go so far, but if you can get a soldier to fight fo his soul and heaven- he will die fighting for it!

Religion is a means of social control.  The fact that this control has some value to society doesn't make the methods of how it is derived, or the theoretical rational behind it, correct.

Beliefs are powerful, whether they are religios or not.

People who truely believe in Communism will perform terrorist acts to advance their belief system.

Capitalists will do the same.

So will Socialists.

So will Enviromentalists.

So will Animal Rights Activists.

So will Pro-Choicers.

So will Pro-Lifers.

So will any other belief that is held out in the world. So maybe your hate for religion should just be a hate of all ethos. Then you would be a nihlist, which of course is a belief in nothing.

Quoted: Religion is a means of social control.  The fact that this control has some value to society doesn't make the methods of how it is derived, or the theoretical rational behind it, correct.

sounds like you just quoted the communist mannefesto.

Commie.

Quoted: Religion is a means of social control.  The fact that this control has some value to society doesn't make the methods of how it is derived, or the theoretical rational behind it, correct.

Quoted: Quoted: No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise. I reread your post, and yes, you are an athiest. An agnostic is someone who either says "I don't know if God exists", or someone who says "I believe in God, but I don't think it is possible for man to know him." You basically have the Marxist view of religion, that it is "the opiate of the masses". This is a distinctly athiestic point of view.

look, I dont deny the existence of God or gods. I am skeptical about the existence of God. I am not an athiest. I am scientific and require a proof of existance and a proof of non-existance. An Athiest is someone who denies the existence of God.

For further understanding dictionary.com

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise. I reread your post, and yes, you are an athiest. An agnostic is someone who either says "I don't know if God exists", or someone who says "I believe in God, but I don't think it is possible for man to know him." You basically have the Marxist view of religion, that it is "the opiate of the masses". This is a distinctly athiestic point of view. look, I dont deny the existence of God or gods. I am skeptical about the existence of God. I am not an athiest. I am scientific and require a proof of existance and a proof of non-existance. An Athiest is someone who denies the existence of God. For further understanding dictionary.com

You are anti-religion, anti-faith, and say that you require scientific proof to God's existance, therefore you think that there is no God. To say otherwise would be to contridict yourself. There is no need to try to fool yourself or others. Quoting the dictionary is a very very weak argument.

He can call himself what he wants to call himself. Whether he is agnostic or aetheistic is of no concern to us.

Quoted: You are anti-religion, anti-faith, and say that you require scientific proof to God's existance, therefore you think that there is no God. To say otherwise would be to contridict yourself. There is no need to try to fool yourself or others. Quoting the dictionary is a very very weak argument.

yes I am anti-religion, anti-faith, because religions are based on nothing. Its a house of cards without a solid foundation, and faith is IMHO- wishfull thinking. I dont deny a God- I am mearly ignorrant to the fact that he may or may not be there. Seriously, there may be a God, but building a structure around what you dont understand is not a good organization, and that is my argument.

Quoted: Quoted: So you don't know what the truth is, but you do know that what I believe is wrong? Someone hasn't thought through their ideology much. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... Any how can you prove your ideology is right? Someone hasn't thought through their religion much?

I have no plans to "prove" my ideology, especially to you.  I doubt any proof I could offer would pass your muster, but you'd do well to realize your opinion of my beliefs matters little.  But, if you wanted know what happened, here's the story.  

I grew up as a boy in a Southern Baptist church.  My family attended services every Sunday and we were active in the church.  But I never felt like the others did.  I was always suspicious of people who had faith, because I had none, but I went through the motions.  Them my father died when I was 14 and I became an agnostic, saying that I didn't know what was out there.  Then I slowly turned into a snarling atheist, cynical and narcicistic.  I was master of my own destiny and would never be helpless in my life.  No one held any power over me!  Then one day life dealt me a suckerpunch and I was humbled.  I found out quickly that I wasn't  in charge of as much as I had thought.  A few weeks later I fell to my knees, like I did as a child, and had an honest conversation with God.  I told him I was ashamed of who I had become, scared of what was happening and felt powerless to do anything about it.  I asked for forgiveness for turning away from Him after my father died and for Him to put me where He needed me.  I told him that I would go where he led.  And not long after that, things started to take a turn for the better in my life.  And as things got better, my faith got stronger.  I found myself saying small prayers throughout the day, when before I wouldn't say one.  And I found that I truly felt like the Lord was working in my life.  You'd have to experience it to understand.  And it has continued until recently.  In March of this year I found myself unemployed but surviving, when a handful of jobs all popped up at the same time.  I interviewed at all of them, and said a prayer asking that God put me where he wanted me.  And then everything started pointing to the job I had interviewed for in Dallas.  Make no mistake, I had no love for the DFW area, at least as a place to live.  I had plenty of friends up there and enjoyed visiting them, but I didn't want to live there.  But that's where the Lord wanted me and I went.  And things have worked out really well since.  I've met some great people up here, I go to a great church, and feel like this is where I needed to be.

Im guessing your religion is based on Hear-say and faith, not cold hard facts. Right my friend?

My dear boy, that is not the point.  I don't believe in "religion."  I believe in the power of God Almighty.  My beliefs are based upon The Bible, my own experiences, and faith.  

But my point is trying to illustrate that you can say on one hand that you have no evidence as to what's out there, but you can somehow discredit my beliefs.  That would seem to be contradictory reasoning.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...

Quoted: Here is my rant. It was headed toward another thread- but there is no future for that thread. So here is my rant in its own thread. An Agnostic idealism, for clear heads not dazzled by the thought of a church or a holy book. Please read and let me know what you think. I do expect plenty of hate from people who dont agree, but please keep it civilized. I do wish for a friendly banter amogst anyone who challenges and I do expect plenty of prayers for my "soul", so thank you for those prayers in advance. Also If any of this makes sense to you, leave a reply or an IM. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL, when will religions ever catch up to me, never I hope. Am I the only one who can see there is no light in the darkness of religion? How many people died throughout the ages under the guise "my religion is better than yours?" or book interpretations or simply "my book says that your religion is wrong" Suprise!...Its all marketing folks! When will man realize that they cannot fight what they do not know? Man fears the unknown so he puts up a set of rules(even if they are wrong) a set of rules so that they have aim in life. Most people I know are scared, scared of living, scared of death, it doesnt matter, they are simply scared- and religion or a belief in a God is a tempting comfort - an explaination for all, how to live- and how to die.    You don’t know what is at the end. So making up a cryptic story, or following someone else’s crafted religion isn’t going to help you, its only going to lead you down their road of false hopes for their bidding- hopes that you are doing right by God, and in that is where death and hatred lies- in Gods of fancy. There is no God that you should worship, until proven otherwise; and not by hear-say, but cold hard evidence is proven to exist, nothing should rely on faith except for a mans foolish hope. I would rather die a man free of any God than trick myself into believing anything just so I can feel good and cozy on my death bed, I respect myself more than that. Some say that "no man dies godless" because they all pray to a god on their death bed, and that may be true, however have you ever given the thought that maybe that the last true test of ones self is not giving in to the temptation of submission to something(God), but maybe you pass the test if you die with your integrity of not bowing before a Lord, not giving in to the temptation of a comfortable God and heaven. Maybe religious beliefs are the lure, and resisting the lure to the end will open yourself to the mutual respect of____....I cant speculate on "what", that is part of the test.

+1

God loves you, and there is nothing you can do about it! So there.

You know what I find irritating, more than anything else about religion?

People who say, "my religion is the only one." Not the only true one, the only one.

Yeah, right. All those other people just get together for coffee, cookies, and an intellectual discussion on the works of Wittgenstein. No, there are hundreds of religions. You can think that yours is the only true one. That's just part of your dogma. You can think anything you want. But if you think that your religion is the only one in existence, you're a twit.

I do not subscribe to any "religion".  I think that anyone who does is rather naive.  No one religion has all the truth, and all religions lie in one way or another.  They have a philosophy, and to support it they take parts of the Bible they like, and ignore parts they don't like.  I feel that it should be all or nothing.

I also strongly dislike religions that say that if you do not believe in Jesus you will go to hell.  That is one of the most pervasive lies ever put forth.  The way I understand it, God is too loving for that.  If you know His character as well as a close friend would, and still reject him, then perhaps you will go to "hell".  After all, you wouldn't be happy being with him all the time, right?  But no one on Earth truly knows his character.  They know words.  They may have seen tiny bits and pieces of His character.  But no one really knows him like a friend.

I strongly believe in God and Jesus, and not just because of the amazing wonder of the universe.  I have experienced it.  Seeing is believing, and I've seen glimpses.

You say that religion is wrong because it has caused people to fight and kill.  Well my response is that no matter what they say they believe, actions speak louder than words, and they certainly are not following the teachings of the Being they claim to follow.

Quoted: look, I dont deny the existence of God or gods. I am skeptical about the existence of God. I am not an athiest. I am scientific and require a proof of existance and a proof of non-existance. An Athiest is someone who denies the existence of God.

An interesting, if circular, aside: Belief in an omnipotent being can preclude the very notion of scientific discovery of him. If he doesn't want you to prove his existence, he won't let it happen.



My head hurts.

I have my proof.  It will not be enough for you (or anybody else).  And with closed eyes, you will never see yours.  

Morality alone cannot work to constrain people. Just look at Islam or the abuses thruout Catholicism.
Only abiding in Jesus can constrain an individual to live a truly righteous life.

What gets me is that some of the same guys that don't want to hear about religion are the same ones who just can't wait to tell me that they are into Wicca, Satanism, or that they are Agnostic or Atheist.  They're trying to get a reaction I guess.  

Quoted: Commie. Quoted: Religion is a means of social control.  The fact that this control has some value to society doesn't make the methods of how it is derived, or the theoretical rational behind it, correct.

I am no Commie.  Many religions are out to rob you of everything you have AND feel justified in doing so, just as the Communists do.  The only difference is that the Commies will do it in the name of "the people," while religious leaders will do it in the name of God.

Quoted: Here is my rant. It was headed toward another thread- but there is no future for that thread. So here is my rant in its own thread. An Agnostic idealism, for clear heads not dazzled by the thought of a church or a holy book. Please read and let me know what you think. I do expect plenty of hate from people who dont agree, but please keep it civilized. I do wish for a friendly banter amogst anyone who challenges and I do expect plenty of prayers for my "soul", so thank you for those prayers in advance. Also If any of this makes sense to you, leave a reply or an IM. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- LOL, when will religions ever catch up to me, never I hope. Am I the only one who can see there is no light in the darkness of religion? How many people died throughout the ages under the guise "my religion is better than yours?" or book interpretations or simply "my book says that your religion is wrong" Suprise!...Its all marketing folks! When will man realize that they cannot fight what they do not know? Man fears the unknown so he puts up a set of rules(even if they are wrong) a set of rules so that they have aim in life. Most people I know are scared, scared of living, scared of death, it doesnt matter, they are simply scared- and religion or a belief in a God is a tempting comfort - an explaination for all, how to live- and how to die.    You don’t know what is at the end. So making up a cryptic story, or following someone else’s crafted religion isn’t going to help you, its only going to lead you down their road of false hopes for their bidding- hopes that you are doing right by God, and in that is where death and hatred lies- in Gods of fancy. There is no God that you should worship, until proven otherwise; and not by hear-say, but cold hard evidence is proven to exist, nothing should rely on faith except for a mans foolish hope. I would rather die a man free of any God than trick myself into believing anything just so I can feel good and cozy on my death bed, I respect myself more than that. Some say that "no man dies godless" because they all pray to a god on their death bed, and that may be true, however have you ever given the thought that maybe that the last true test of ones self is not giving in to the temptation of submission to something(God), but maybe you pass the test if you die with your integrity of not bowing before a Lord, not giving in to the temptation of a comfortable God and heaven. Maybe religious beliefs are the lure, and resisting the lure to the end will open yourself to the mutual respect of____....I cant speculate on "what", that is part of the test.

Someone does not exist untill they prove their existance?

So, do I 'exist' if I never talked to you, never set foot on this board? Of course.

Similarly, God can exist without proving himself to you. We all make a choice on this matter, and in the end only one of us can be right.

If you're right, we all turn to dust & game over.

If I'm right, then what the Bible says will happen, will happen.

And if the Hindus, Muslims, Jews, or Buddhists are right, well then...

There is only one possible 'right' answer. If God does not exist, then all the religeons that say He (or they) does/do are Wrong.

If Christiantity is right, then God exists, there is only one, and he has made clear conditions on how he judges the world. All others are wrong.

And the same for every other major religeon. Only one will be right in the end. They are mutually exclusive.

I believe I've found the right one.

You believe you are right.

Time will tell, there is no use debating it here.

Religion causes people to think emotionally rather than rationally. I won't partake in religion for the same reason I won't drink or do drugs---it can take over your life, or at very least impair your judgement.

Have any of you atheists ever believed in something that you had no proof of?  By your logic I could claim that your foundationless beliefs are bad for you because they make you think "emotionally rather than rationally".  On the other hand, most if not all of us believers DO have a foundation.  We merely are not able to make others understand it.  You have to experience it for yourself.  To experience it, you must be open to experiencing it.

Now, having said that, I do agree that MOST religions either impair your judgement by necessity or by definition.  That is why I am not "religious".  I believe in the Bible, God, and Jesus.  All others are to be trusted as far as I can reach them.  They all may have good to offer, but they all are wrong about something too.  As my father once said, a delicious four-star dinner with a little poison can still kill you.

All I know, is almost every conflict in the history of mankind has had a religious under tone. Until that stops, I'm not playing.

Quoted: All I know, is almost every conflict in the history of mankind has had a religious under tone. Until that stops, I'm not playing.

Oh, that's classic.  Judging every religion for the actions of a few.  I guess I should get rid of my guns until gun crime stops.

Your statement shows that you are cynical and ignorant, which is a bad mixture.  This isn't a personal attack, it is a statement of facts derived from your own words.

Quoted: Quoted: All I know, is almost every conflict in the history of mankind has had a religious under tone. Until that stops, I'm not playing. Oh, that's classic.  Judging every religion for the actions of a few.  I guess I should get rid of my guns until gun crime stops.

Actions of a few what?  Few hundred wars? Because every side believes in the right God, and the other guy is wrong. Please

Quoted: Actions of a few what?  Few hundred wars? Because every side believes in the right God, and the other guy is wrong. Please

Do you honestly believe that a normal, Bible-believing Christian would advocate the killing on non-believers, or believers in a different religion?  Only fanatics do that, and fanatics kill anyway.

The "christians" in the crusades were not following the teachings of God or Jesus.  Therefore they are not true Christians.  These "christians" were killing for power and conquest, not for God.

Can you tell me why my gun comparision does not perfectly match your arguement?

Quoted: Quoted: Actions of a few what?  Few hundred wars? Because every side believes in the right God, and the other guy is wrong. Please Do you honestly believe that a normal, Bible-believing Christian would advocate the killing on non-believers, or believers in a different religion?  Only fanatics do that, and fanatics kill anyway. The "christians" in the crusades were not following the teachings of God or Jesus.  Therefore they are not true Christians.  These "christians" were killing for power and conquest, not for God. Can you tell me why my gun comparision does not perfectly match your arguement?

I could give a shit about your guns. What I'm saying is, if each religion took care of it's own FANATICS,  we wouldn't have as many wars. Then people like me, could stay home with my family, instead of cleaning up the mess.

How are religions supposed to take care of fanatics?  Organize a militia and hunt them down?

Quoted: How are religions supposed to take care of fanatics?  Organize a militia and hunt them down?

I guess your right. It should be someone else's problem. Let's stop here, we are hijacking this thread.

Well....... There are two truths that I know, there a God and I'm not him.  How can we deny that the almight lives, as do we?? You just have to do the math. Is there light and its opposite dark?? I was out last week at the lake and I saw a Pelican dive into the lake and catch a fish.  How does that pelican know how to do this?  How does a dog know how to bark at other dogs and nothing else, how does that dog know he is a dog, or to bark at one of its own???How can any species breed, gestate and deliver a new born?? Can all of what we have knowledge of today, science , nature, math of happened by accident??? Did all of this come from one celled organisms millions of years ago, and now  everything that exists , all laws of nature happen by accident?
Nope, can't be a coincidence.  It just cant be. God exists and along with God exists the Holy Spirit which can enter the bosum of any Man or Woman and be a compass, helping us live a life true to Gods laws so we can go and Live with Heavenly Father when our work on the earth is done.

Quoted: Have any of you atheists ever believed in something that you had no proof of?

Actually, the word you are looking for is EVIDENCE, not proof...proof is reserved for mathematics and logic...and no, I don't waste my time believing in something for which there is no verifiable, objective evidence.  For example, there MAY be a "God" or Supreme Being, but I haven't seen any verifiable, objective evidence to support that claim.  I really would like there to be a heaven and an afterlife, but as it stands now, that's just wishful thinking...

Well, I see evidence everywhere I look.

Instead of trying RELIGION, why don't you try FAITH?

Believe me, there is a BIG difference, and when I realized it, I was truly set free.

Quoted: Instead of trying RELIGION, why don't you try FAITH? Believe me, there is a BIG difference, and when I realized it, I was truly set free.

Well said.

Quoted: Thanks for sharing. I dont hate you, but I dont agree with your opinion on this matter.  The fact that you think I as a Christian would hate you for not believing shows how little you know about my beliefs.

This always interests me, Lumpy.

I don't mind guys like gaspain saying that they don't believe in religion.  Fine with me.

But why do they always think that we will hate them for saying so?  Where do they get this?

Religion isn't the corner stone of my life either.  But my relationship with Jesus is.  He is what is important to me.

And I know that He is Who He says He is because He lives in my heart and guides me each and every day.  He is as real to me as any other loved one in my life.

I would like for gaspain and others like him to know this wonderful relationship with Jesus.  But if he is not interested, then I will not hate him.  But, as he expected, I will pray for him.

Quoted: Thanks for sharing. I dont hate you, but I dont agree with your opinion on this matter.  The fact that you think I as a Christian would hate you for not believing shows how little you know about my beliefs.

+1

Here's something more...

If there is a God, then he'd be pretty powerfull, and hard for us to comprehend.  So why would you think that you could or should comprehend Him?  Why would you base your comprehension of somehing uncomprehendable to decide whether it exhists...

If there is a God, and we can't comprehend Him, how would he decide to reveal himself to us?   Would it have to be to your satisfaction?   Is it possible that he revealed himself to our forfathers and they just turned their back to him?

If so then how would you know if he exhists or not?

I'm a Christian, so you know what I think.   I have answered each of those questions to my own satisfaction.  I think any Christian is willing to share those answers (and to me the reasoning behind those answers lies closely to why Islam, or any other non Judeo-Christian religion doesn't add up to me).

People will kill each other, no matter the reason.

Religious quarrels are really a sign of conflicts between different cultures.  Conflicts between cultures will always go on.  The two big wars of the last century was WWI and WWII, wars  that were  largely independent (I will concede not 100% independent)  of religious causes.  Those two wars killed over 50 million people, way more than ever died being burned at the stake, or the crusades or the Inquisition.

To blame religions for the conflicts that erupt between cultures is to ignore other differences between cultures.

Quoted:
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No, I am not an Atheist. I believe that there may or may not be a god, I choose neither until proven otherwise.

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unfortunately you may find out after it's too late.  sorry to hear it.

the Lord never done me wrong, only people who didn't believe in the lord.