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Posted: 9/1/2004 6:35:21 AM EDT
www.eastvalleytribune.com/index.php?sty=27295
Gunman warned police to stay out By Bryon Wells, Tribune "I guess this is my last few minutes on the planet," Douglas M. Tatar said. It was for two Phoenix police officers, as well. Phoenix police on Tuesday released 911 tapes and radio traffic of a shootout between police and Tatar on Saturday near Northern and 19th avenues. Officers Jason Wolfe, 27, and Eric White, 30, were killed after they kicked open an apartment door into the sights of the waiting gunman. Officer Chris Parese, 26, was wounded with a bullet in his side. Tatar, 29, shot himself in the head. Tatar called 911 about 6 p.m. Saturday from his apartment at 1905 W. Las Palamitas Drive, saying he’d just shot a man who threatened to fight him every day until he paid a $100 lost bet. He said he was armed with a .40-caliber Smith and Wesson handgun. Tatar refused to go outside and talk with officers, saying he would not go to jail and that there was a "mob" of people outside that had shot at him. He then told the operator to follow up on "leads" on unrelated cases he’d told Phoenix investigators of in the past, as well as a surgeon who operated on his legs. Confused, the operator asks, "What information is the surgeon going to provide for us? Are you on any medication?" Tatar then raises his voice and says, "Don’t open that door." Operator: "Sir" Tatar: "What. .. no, I’m not." Operator: "Sir?" Tatar: "Who are these people outside the door, ma’am?" A commotion follows, then the sound of several gunshots. Muffled screams. The operator repeats, "Doug? Doug? Doug?" Talking in the background. More gunfire. Other officers pulled their comrades to safety under gunfire. In the radio traffic, there was a commotion, yelling, and a frantic broadcast of "We have an officer down (inaudible) now." More ye lling and commotion. "We’ve got two officers down. Three officers down, two next to the apartment. We’re trying to extract the second officer," an officer shouts. "They’ve got the second officer. They’re evac-ing him out now; we’re just holding down the apartment." The SWAT team and gang squad was then called to the scene. A supervisor orders other officers to stay away from the apartment until the special units arrive. "We’re going to lock this thing down," the unidentified officer said. Relatives of Tatar said he was unstable and had a conspiracy theory that police were out to harass him. They told ABC 15 News that he had a concealed weapons permit, wasn’t afraid of police and would shoot officers if he could. The deaths bring the number of line-of-duty deaths for Phoenix police officers to 29 since the first recorded death in 1925, according to the National Law Enforcement Officers Memorial Fund. Flags are flying at half-staff across the Valley until the end of the officers’ funerals this weekend. White is survived by his wife Colleen, daughter Alexia, son Connor, parents James and Christine White, brother Chad, and sister-in-law Stacy. Wolfe is survived by his wife Tara, sons Caleb and Kameron, and parents Lynette McMinn and Russell Wolfe. |
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Ouch.
Guess that shows what can happen when they go after someone capable of fighting back. Prayers for the officer's families |
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I am certainly interested in more details.
Such as, did he know or have reason to believe it was the cops entering as opposed to the other BG's? What exactly did the unidentified officer mean by "lock this thing down"? I think as usual we will only get half the story on this one. |
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+1 |
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my condolences to the officers' families and i hope the third recovers quickly and fully.
'doug' sounds like he was a lunatic that never should have owned a firearm. |
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The guy was obviously a nutjob!
My condolences to the officer's families. |
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Something drove that guy over the edge. I'm sorry that those officers died because of it.
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amen, i agree this makes it hard for the ccw issue |
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God Bless the fallen officers and their families. I wonder if they were properly trained to make an entry like this. If they know the guy is armed and waiting, why push him. Why not wait him out until better armed, more qualified units arrive?
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"Super Cop" syndrome, maybe??? When I went thru the academy, one of the things the taught us was the first thing you do when you get to a scene like this is wait for backup |
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No,that shows what happens when an unstable person has access to firearms. |
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There were 8 officers on scene. The first three got hit with fire. They should have FRAGGED the MOTHER FUCKER! |
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I don't think you need a CCW to have a pistol in your pad.
That was only brought up to make CCW look like a bad idea. We are only getting the partial story. |
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Fragging is BIT out of the realm of civilian LE, but you are on the right track. Most street cops are ill-prepared (gear, mindset, tactics) for a determined barricaded subject. SWAT and flashbangs are your friends in situations like this. And usually the only way to get subjects like this out without taking casualities of your own. Sounds like the officers probably didn't have all the info that dispatch did. Bad scene all around. Prayers to the families and comrades of the fallen. It's always painful to put on the black band. -Z |
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If you will re-read the story, it sounds as though not all of the information had had a chance to be passed on to the officers at the scene who were doing th entry.
That said . . . if he called the police after a shooting, he realized he had done wrong. The officers should have realized they were dealing with a nutjob that was armed. Someone screwed up and these brave officers paid the price. Whether it was overexcitability on the part of a superior and not waiting the proper equipment or lack of proper information. Edit: And the CCW was apparently brought up by the nutjob when he was threatening to shoot the cops, not just by the media. |
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Yeah because they sure aren't teaching ya to fight with a firearm are they! |
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It almost sounds like the guy didn't know who was at the door but I doubt that.
I guess my big question is where were the officers stuck, were they not wearing thier vests? were they struck in an area where they had no protection from their vest? |
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It's also entirely possible that he got the CCW years ago, became a little unstable/cranked off, and kept mailing his CCW renewals in. Only way they authorities would have figured out that he was unstable would have been to interview him. If he kept a low profile and just sent in his renewals, they'd nver know he was unstable.
Now if he was unstable, had previous dealings with the police (either reporting incidents, or involved in incidents), then the cops might have clued into the possibility that he had problems. I don't know, but expect that the local cops have a list of who has a CCW in their district (it probably is a matter of public record in any event). Strange incident, and certainly an unfortunate one. |
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My condolences to the Officers families.
It's a real shame that this guy had access to a firearm. Why did this guys family, knowing he was unstable and "would shoot officers if he could", not report him to the authorities?? The crazy bastard. |
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It is unfortunate that the perp had a CCW. But just because you have a CCW doesn't make you an angel or a saint, they are just ordinary human beings. It is an effort by the anti-gun news media to discredit the CCW concept.
Maybe the 2 officers rest in peace. |
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You don't just mail in a renewal in AZ. You have to be re-fingerprinted, FBI check, and take refresher training. The CCW comment was typical news-clone drivel. Reported in the paper the weapon was a S&W .40 cal.
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Just how much firearms training do you expect the average basic school to provide? The school is now 6 1/2 months long, with 2 weeks devoted to firearms, and another two weeks devoted to officer survival. Considering that many recruits now enter the basic school with no exposure to firearms, the instructors have to start from the ground up. They do alright with the time they are given. Posted by Warlord:
I have said that for years, but folks around here think we should assume that every CCW holder, even in states where there isn't much of a background check conducted, are automatically one step below sainthood. |
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My condolences to the victims and their families.
However, let's keep things in perspective. Even if the nutbag did have a CCW it makes no difference given the circumstances. While the media if they wish to can spin this into “CCW issuances need more laws” blah, blah, blah, the fact is that CCW holders are FAR, FAR less likely to break the law than non-CCW holders (or cops for that matter). 1 wacko out of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of CCW holders nationwide. Better odds on being hit with by a meteorite than crossing paths with a “rogue” CCW'er. |
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Thanks for the info. Here in PA, you mail in a renewal. You have to go down to the issuing authority to get your picture taken/card made up, but it's not as if they interview you/re-check you out. |
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It is unfortunate, but the case can be made similar with immigrant visas. Some of the 911 terrorists were allowed entry on visas that the INS knew they shouldn't have issued. But still the Terrorists got issued. Same here, sometimes a bad one falls through the cracks. You can't stop all the bad apples, but it is a shame 2X because 1) lives were lost, and 2) this will be used as anti-CCW propaganda. I am not saying anyone knew he was unstable. Just that you can't catch everyone on everything all the time.
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Bad situation all around.
But you have to ask: Why are officers stacked up the second story landing trying to enter an apartment where they have an individual on the phone with 911 telling her that he is alone, armed and just shot a neighbor? |
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AS USUAL you will only get half the story because you are too lazy to look it up.
This guy was NOT innocent and he knew DAMN WELL that those were police outside. But for a crazy guy he was a VERY good shot, he had obviously given a lot of thought as to how to take out armored assailants with a handgun.
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Just.....damn. What a tragic outcome.
Anyone who has a relative with mental problems will know what I mean. I'm just so sorry for all of them. |
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His family sounds like a bunch of idiots. They knew he was unstable and was armed. It's too bad that the SWAT team was not called until after they were dead.
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And how many people on boards like this have advocated that families should "resolve it within the family" and not call LEOs? I have seen it often, particularly on boards like Assaultweb, and to a lesser degree, here. |
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Hmm.. the same thing is often said of cops..... So, whe have ONE CCH holder in the state that lost his marbles out of how many CCH holders? Seems like an isolated incident that has no real statistical value, kinda like the # of 'assault weapons' used in crimes... |
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This is a sad, sad story. My condolences to the families of these officers.
Unfortunately, in hind sight this could have been avoided.
I see this as a tactical mistake. You know the guy is nuts (shoots someone over $100). You know he's armed. As a non-entry team member, they should not be kicking down the door. Block the guy into the apartment, call SWAT. But then I wasn't there and I'm not LEO, so I'm no expert, but it seems to me like kicking a door down with a mentally unstable armed individual behind it is an extremely hazardous duty, better left to the guys with alot more training. |
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I like to think I was trained to make a difference. |
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