Guess I made a few PoPos mad.....Apparently it is "Us Vs Them"

forums.realpolice.net/showthread.php?t=15380

S.O.

Scary shit. You may want to mention to them that a lot of us want it so we can defend ourselves not others. Thats the point of it. I'm not going to act like a cop if I see a crime happen, I'm not going to run over and put my ass into the situation(depending). I'm not going to go and run after/draw down on some guy for snatching a purse and I'm sure those guys ain't either. But if some idiot goes postal in a public place and makes themselves a threat to my safety/life and I don't have a way out, I'm not going to be a helpless victim and I ain't trying to be anyones hero either, I just want to be able to defend myself wherever I may go/be.
Granted it's all moot as I can't even carry concealed here right now but still it;s the principal of it.
Why the hell shouldn't I have the ability to defend myself from a violent attacker. I'm the only one who has an obligation to defend me. The police don't have that obligation, duty or what ever, just let me have the ability to defend myself.

I got this in a PM from someone over there.  "I suggest you quit while ahead. You see, many of these officers also go to ARFCOM and saw your "Intend to troll " post. This is a PROFESSIONAL site, unlike ARFCOM. Posers don't really come across well."  Oh well.....

And they some sort of "Reputation rate" that lists this for me...

"Latest News Regarding H... 08-28-04 11:31 AM Johninaustin Sorryociffer is a stated troll from AR15.com
Latest News Regarding H... 08-27-04 09:02 PM mcsap you are on thin ice here "

S.O.

Yeah, I read a lot of "We're COPS and we'll now protect you wherever we happen to be!" in that thread (along with the typical "we're MUCH better with guns than your typical "civilian").

As you pointed out there are cops with sub-par gun skills and there are "civilians" that can put a lot of cops to shame.

I think it boils down to this:

We are looking to exend our RIGHT of self-defense to cover us WHEREVER we are.  Some of the posters over there seem to think of it as extending their POLICE POWERS when they go somewhere.  That's not a good mindset to have.  As pointed out, cops do NOT have an legal obligation to protect or defend ANYONE and that sure doesn't change when not on duty and out of jurisdiction.

Originally Posted by Arcade Awards: i dont agree. this law in part was also designed to have more law enforcement officers at any given time in any given city. if i see a crime occuring and feel as though i have to intervene, i have the training to do so. a ccw permit does not give somone that training. its much harder to become a law officer than it is to obtain a ccw permit. i'm not saying that i dont agree with ccw, i think its a great idea. i just dont think that ccw permit holders should also be allowed to carry nationally. just my .02$

What he's saying would make sense if he didn't contradict himself.   If CCW "is a great idea" then why limit it to your home state or those that have reciprocity?  

I'm still very happy that cops got nationwide CCW.  It's one step closer to restoring everyone's Constitutional Rights.

I saw JIA's post over there. Can't say I always agree with him, but he does make ya think about some things from a different prospective which is good.

I guess we can feel safe now, knowing that all off duty policemen are now protecting us from being robbed, shot, murdered or beaten, no matter where we go. Because they can carry off duty.  I got an idea, how about we let people protect themselves as well. Thus doubling the crackdown on crime.

That is some scary logic on that forum.

"I don't know exactly how to take this response other then being assanine. I will tell you this, you wouldn't stand a chance against me in a competition setting with a pistol or a rifle. I have more trophies then I have shelf space in the one wall of my room. Just because you have your own range and shoot all the time don't mean that you are proficent with your weapon by anymeans. You are probably just practicing bad habbits and poor technique."

Quoted: I guess we can feel safe now, knowing that all off duty policemen are now protecting us from being robbed, shot, murdered or beaten, no matter where we go. Because they can carry off duty.  I got an idea, how about we let people protect themselves as well. Thus doubling the crackdown on crime. That is some scary logic on that forum. "I don't know exactly how to take this response other then being assanine. I will tell you this, you wouldn't stand a chance against me in a competition setting with a pistol or a rifle. I have more trophies then I have shelf space in the one wall of my room. Just because you have your own range and shoot all the time don't mean that you are proficent with your weapon by anymeans. You are probably just practicing bad habbits and poor technique."

Translation.......keep out of my way lowly citizen or you might get hurt.
Who do you think you are anyway.........DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM ?!?!?!?

Quoted: Quoted: I guess we can feel safe now, knowing that all off duty policemen are now protecting us from being robbed, shot, murdered or beaten, no matter where we go. Because they can carry off duty.  I got an idea, how about we let people protect themselves as well. Thus doubling the crackdown on crime. That is some scary logic on that forum. "I don't know exactly how to take this response other then being assanine. I will tell you this, you wouldn't stand a chance against me in a competition setting with a pistol or a rifle. I have more trophies then I have shelf space in the one wall of my room. Just because you have your own range and shoot all the time don't mean that you are proficent with your weapon by anymeans. You are probably just practicing bad habbits and poor technique." Translation.......keep out of my way lowly citizen or you might get hurt. Who do you think you are anyway.........DON'T YOU KNOW WHO I AM ?!?!?!?

Quoted: Once again, lets confuse some opinion on the internet with reality..........

You......you mean things on the internet.......might not be true ???

I just read the two pages of posts over there.  It's not even worth my effort of getting an account so I can post.

Too many cops have the attitude they are a different class of person.

They had background checks... so????
They had training... so????

Well, what do I, John Q. Citizen have???

Two things, actually...

First, the taxes that pay their wages ie. They work for me, not the other way around.

Second, I've got this ragged old piece of paper often referred to as The Constitution of the United States of America.


Cops need to know their place in society.  Yes, I said it!!! They need to know their place.
What, you ask is their place?  Simple, do the job they signed on for.  No more, no less.  Treat me as a human, and I'll treat them the same.  You would think you were asking them to kneel before us.

Shee-it.

Actually it's not that bad a thread, it;s just that we non LEO's lok at one side of it and LEOs at least those guys that posted for the most part see a different side of it. WE see it as a self protection thing, they seem to see it as hey if I'm there and armed I can do something, even if im out of state. And that is actually a good thing. But at the same time I see it from the, well thats all god and dandy but I want to be able to protect myself and not have to worry about if there is a cop around or not.

I honestly don't give two shits about the use of deadly force laws in this or any other state. I'm not about to pull out a gun for some stupid bullshit. But if my life is at risk, portecting my life is all I care about and if that means having pull and fire my weapon then the laws can suck my dick. My life is more important than laws. I don't believe in deadly force to protect my car, unless the asshole trying to steal it is doing it by force or threat of death or bodily harm to me while I'm in it. You want to steal my car radio in the middle of the night, fine I got insurance I'm not about to put 124gr hollow point in yer ass for it. It's not worth the BS you'll end up going through with the legal system. If you come into my house armed in the middle of the night, expect to be confronted by a pissed off armed resident, expect to not walk out of my house alive as you are a threat to my life and the lives of my family. seems simple to me, if yer going to take a life, it better be to protect a life be you an LEO or not.

I'm not a "non-LEO", I'm a "former-LEO".  So I clearly understand their point of view.

Which is why I so vigorously assert that it is WRONG.

elitist bs


cops can outshoot anyone, hmmm, ok


bring your junk to the range and lets see who is better

Quoted: I'm not a "non-LEO", I'm a "former-LEO".  So I clearly understand their point of view. Which is why I so vigorously assert that it is WRONG.

Were you an LEO up here in Wisconsin? IF so what Dept? just wondering cuz I know a few in a couple depts around the SE wisconsin area.

WOW.  One of the guys said, "You don't need a national CCW license because you don't HAVE to go to other states!"

Quoted: elitist bs cops can outshoot anyone, hmmm, ok bring your junk to the range and lets see who is better

No, a "range" is a sterile environment according to the posters over on the police forums.  Let's load up two suburbans, one cops and one regular joes, then take a ride down Michigan Ave in DETROIT???

[Macho Man Randy Savage]oooh yaaaaaa! Let's put the Rock&Roll back in da motor city!! oooooh yaaaaaa!!!![/Macho Man]

Quoted: Actually it's not that bad a thread, it;s just that we non LEO's lok at one side of it and LEOs at least those guys that posted for the most part see a different side of it. WE see it as a self protection thing, they seem to see it as hey if I'm there and armed I can do something, even if im out of state. And that is actually a good thing. But at the same time I see it from the, well thats all god and dandy but I want to be able to protect myself and not have to worry about if there is a cop around or not. I honestly don't give two shits about the use of deadly force laws in this or any other state. I'm not about to pull out a gun for some stupid bullshit. But if my life is at risk, portecting my life is all I care about and if that means having pull and fire my weapon then the laws can suck my dick. My life is more important than laws. I don't believe in deadly force to protect my car, unless the asshole trying to steal it is doing it by force or threat of death or bodily harm to me while I'm in it. You want to steal my car radio in the middle of the night, fine I got insurance I'm not about to put 124gr hollow point in yer ass for it. It's not worth the BS you'll end up going through with the legal system. If you come into my house armed in the middle of the night, expect to be confronted by a pissed off armed resident, expect to not walk out of my house alive as you are a threat to my life and the lives of my family. seems simple to me, if yer going to take a life, it better be to protect a life.

I happen to be a member  both here and at RP.  Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too.  I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way.

The officers on RP don't imagine that they can protect you at all.  They know better.  

I am a former cop, so I have insight into both worlds.  As a law abiding citizen, I want the right to carry.  I also teach CHL and Security Guards in Texas.  If saw some of what I saw, you would have a problem with a bunch of these people carrying around you and your family.  

And Occifer it is not "us vs them" unless you try to make it that way.  The cops I know at RP, and the ones who serve my community where I live, as well as what I observed at the DPS academy this month, have shown me that these people understand their role in society and care deeply about the people in those communities.  

Quoted: Quoted: I'm not a "non-LEO", I'm a "former-LEO".  So I clearly understand their point of view. Which is why I so vigorously assert that it is WRONG. Were you an LEO up here in Wisconsin? IF so what Dept? just wondering cuz I know a few in a couple depts around the SE wisconsin area.

Yeah, worked part time for several years in college.  See your IM.

Man, reading that thread made my head hurt...

I am tired of the elitist BS from some of the LE members over there.  What is so hard for them to understand?  My home state issues a CCW, but if I go too far in one direction, into NY State, doing what I do at home, but in NY - I am a felon.  We are not asking for any special powers, just what they have wrt carrying legally in other states.  I do not want to kick in doors, initiate traffic stops, take down drug dealers; all I want is the legal recognition to do what is legal for me in CT in other states I travel to.

Do I become more of a menace if I leave the state where I am legal to CCW?

Quoted: I happen to be a member  both here and at RP.  Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too.  I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. The officers on RP don't imagine that they can protect you at all.  They know better.   I am a former cop, so I have insight into both worlds.  As a law abiding citizen, I want the right to carry.  I also teach CHL and Security Guards in Texas.  If saw some of what I saw, you would have a problem with a bunch of these people carrying around you and your family.   And Occifer it is not "us vs them" unless you try to make it that way.  The cops I know at RP, and the ones who serve my community where I live, as well as what I observed at the DPS academy this month, have shown me that these people understand their role in society and care deeply about the people in those communities.

I support nationwide carry whole heartedly!!!

txinvestigator: I stopped to see ya Wednesday, but they said your were bizzy...

Quoted: Man, reading that thread made my head hurt... I am tired of the elitist BS from some of the LE members over there.  What is so hard for them to understand?  My home state issues a CCW, but if I go too far in one direction, into NY State, doing what I do at home, but in NY - I am a felon.  We are not asking for any special powers, just what they have wrt carrying legally in other states.  I do not want to kick in doors, initiate traffic stops, take down drug dealers; all I want is the legal recognition to do what is legal for me in CT in other states I travel to. Do I become more of a menace if I leave the state where I am legal to CCW?

Have you ever commited an act that would be a felony here or anywhere else???  DANG!!!!

I happen to be a member both here and at RP. Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too. I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way.

Yes, how dare us lowly citizens think we should be allowed national CCW.
If you are seeing too many idiots in your CCW classes, perhaps your standards are too low.
I know lots of LEO and former LEO and there are good shots among them and those I wouldn't trust with a rubber band gun.
And yes, ithink if LEOs get that right to carry nationwide, so should us lowly serfs if we pass the same tests and qualify.

Quoted: Quoted: I happen to be a member  both here and at RP.  Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too.  I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. The officers on RP don't imagine that they can protect you at all.  They know better.   I am a former cop, so I have insight into both worlds.  As a law abiding citizen, I want the right to carry.  I also teach CHL and Security Guards in Texas.  If saw some of what I saw, you would have a problem with a bunch of these people carrying around you and your family.   And Occifer it is not "us vs them" unless you try to make it that way.  The cops I know at RP, and the ones who serve my community where I live, as well as what I observed at the DPS academy this month, have shown me that these people understand their role in society and care deeply about the people in those communities.   I support nationwide carry whole heartedly!!! txinvestigator: I stopped to see ya Wednesday, but they said your were bizzy...

Sorry I missed you.  I was teaching a class.  :(

Quoted: I happen to be a member both here and at RP. Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too. I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. Yes, how dare us lowly citizens think we should be allowed national CCW. If you are seeing too many idiots in your CCW classes, perhaps your standards are too low. I know lots of LEO and former LEO and there are good shots among them and those I wouldn't trust with a rubber band gun. And yes, ithink if LEOs get that right to carry nationwide, so should us lowly serfs if we pass the same tests and qualify.

You sound like a liberal the way you twist around words and comment about shit I did not say.  Use your comprehension skills.    Do you think that JUST because LEO's have nationwide carry , all CHL/CCW people should have the same right?  

Our classes are open to the public, and that does not vhange the fact that there are people who just flat should not carry a handgun.  Attacking ME does not change the facts.

I DO agree that if non-LEO's pass the same tests and qualify that nationwide CHL should be available.  Some states, I believe, have no testing requirements or training requirements to carry.  Are you OK with a person from such a state carrying where YOU are?

Quoted: Quoted: Actually it's not that bad a thread, it;s just that we non LEO's lok at one side of it and LEOs at least those guys that posted for the most part see a different side of it. WE see it as a self protection thing, they seem to see it as hey if I'm there and armed I can do something, even if im out of state. And that is actually a good thing. But at the same time I see it from the, well thats all god and dandy but I want to be able to protect myself and not have to worry about if there is a cop around or not. I honestly don't give two shits about the use of deadly force laws in this or any other state. I'm not about to pull out a gun for some stupid bullshit. But if my life is at risk, portecting my life is all I care about and if that means having pull and fire my weapon then the laws can suck my dick. My life is more important than laws. I don't believe in deadly force to protect my car, unless the asshole trying to steal it is doing it by force or threat of death or bodily harm to me while I'm in it. You want to steal my car radio in the middle of the night, fine I got insurance I'm not about to put 124gr hollow point in yer ass for it. It's not worth the BS you'll end up going through with the legal system. If you come into my house armed in the middle of the night, expect to be confronted by a pissed off armed resident, expect to not walk out of my house alive as you are a threat to my life and the lives of my family. seems simple to me, if yer going to take a life, it better be to protect a life. I happen to be a member  both here and at RP.  Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too.  I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. The officers on RP don't imagine that they can protect you at all.  They know better.   I am a former cop, so I have insight into both worlds.  As a law abiding citizen, I want the right to carry.  I also teach CHL and Security Guards in Texas.  If saw some of what I saw, you would have a problem with a bunch of these people carrying around you and your family.   And Occifer it is not "us vs them" unless you try to make it that way.  The cops I know at RP, and the ones who serve my community where I live, as well as what I observed at the DPS academy this month, have shown me that these people understand their role in society and care deeply about the people in those communities.

You are one of the few that seem reasonable over there and seem like they have their head on straight. I just get pissed when people accuse others of making gross character judgments and assumptions while then doing the same thing themselves. It is hard for a non LEO to come away from such a thread and not see "Us Vs Them" written all over it. BTW, did you know I was a ? Dont know if they meant here or over there but I digress...

I didn't even get a membership over there to start any shit. I initially found the site when it turned up in a search engine hit for a part for my CV, I scrolled down the list of forums and saw a "firearms forum" and thought cool, well, after going several pages in and reading posts, some with WAY off info like "green tip 223 is AP" and that "AP rifle ammo is illegal, right?" Or "can I shoot 40 in a 10mm and 10mm in a 40?" and no-one correcting them I decided to join and post to clarify some thingsand to just participate in some good gun talk.  I guess they feel threatened by someone with "gun knowledge".

Funny thing is, when I took my oral board for the academy I was asked "what is the biggest problem facing law enforcement? My answer was "LEOs themselves and how they project there positions and authority on those who aren't LEO".  Boy, did that get some raised eyebrows and notes taken.....BUT, I still passed the board. A week b4 I was to start we (the recruits) had a sitdown with an LT, kinda an informal Q+A, when I heard what he was making after being their 14 yrs the 1st thought in my head was "You poor son of a bitch...."  I had to do some soul searching to see if it was the path I really wanted to pursue.....I regret it less as time goes on, it just wasn't in the stars for me. I'm just glad I found this out b4 I ended up being very un-happy.

One thing I found especially interesting was how many officers poo poo'd the glock. Alot of talk on how crappy they are and how they KB. Either it happens more than what it is being reported or they are falling prey to the same rumor/truths that are reported here.

I dont think I will bother going back, it just isn't worth it.

S.O.

Edited cause I can't spell worth a shit today...

Quoted: Quoted: I happen to be a member both here and at RP. Occifer struck a nerve when it appeared he suggested that because LEO's received Nationwide Carry, that he should too. I don't think he meant that, but I can see how some took it that way. Yes, how dare us lowly citizens think we should be allowed national CCW. If you are seeing too many idiots in your CCW classes, perhaps your standards are too low. I know lots of LEO and former LEO and there are good shots among them and those I wouldn't trust with a rubber band gun. And yes, ithink if LEOs get that right to carry nationwide, so should us lowly serfs if we pass the same tests and qualify. You sound like a liberal the way you twist around words and comment about shit I did not say.  Use your comprehension skills.    Do you think that JUST because LEO's have nationwide carry , all CHL/CCW people should have the same right?   Our classes are open to the public, and that does not vhange the fact that there are people who just flat should not carry a handgun.  Attacking ME does not change the facts. I DO agree that if non-LEO's pass the same tests and qualify that nationwide CHL should be available.  Some states, I believe, have no testing requirements or training requirements to carry.  Are you OK with a person from such a state carrying where YOU are?

No problem understanding at all, see the red section above.

Do you think that JUST because LEO's have nationwide carry , all CHL/CCW people should have the same right?

The same right...HELL YES !!  If LEOs get that RIGHT then so should we.
But as I stated above, as long as they QUALIFY.
I never said just hand them out with food stamps.


 

The whole arguement the cops on that site, and indeed the backers of the bill, make to support it is a logical fallacy.

They claim it will put more cops on the street to fight crime. But it won't. Why? Show me one state, any state, that will give a law enforcement officer from another state LEO powers in that state just because they are traveling through.

Name one..... can you?

Therefore, all we really have on the streets due to this bill is some more armed "civilians", is it not?

They have no obligation to act any more than the rest of us do. And no more legal protections if they do. Johninaustins arguement about "increasing about the number of first responders"  is pretty much bullshit when you look at it.

Then you see they argue that we are not trainined in use of force laws. Well in NC you must be to get your CCH, at least for NC laws. As for other states, guess what,  does a LEO in NC know the use of force laws regarding citizens in CA? Because as already established, he is a "civilian" and subject to the same laws as we would be. So in that regard they are on the same level as us also.... another aspect of thier arguement that doesn't stand up to logical thought.

Now when he meantions it is meant to increase officer safety, he is closer to the truth...... cops on vaction deserve protection more than the rest of us according to the backers of this bill.

So.  the troll circle is complete.  You post your intent on ARFCOM to troll RealPolice.  you then join RP and make a years worth of posts in three or four days, stir up shit and then come back here with links to the thread.

Just WHY are you trying to start a war between two sites?   Is your ego THAT overblown?

Holy crap, after reading some of the posts in the forearms section it is downright scary!

Not that people don't know things, thats no big deal, but that they are posting outright falsehoods as is they were 100% sure they are the truth.

It is not possible to argue with people who know they are better than you. Why try. Let them live in their fantasy world.

Quoted: So.  the troll circle is complete.  You post your intent on ARFCOM to troll RealPolice.  you then join RP and make a years worth of posts in three or four days, stir up shit and then come back here with links to the thread. Just WHY are you trying to start a war between two sites?   Is your ego THAT overblown?

Why would it be a "war between the sites" ??
Its one guy posting there. Hes not posting as a representative of ARFCOM.

Just reading the first page off the other site, all the cops kept refering to us as "civilians". They are civilians too, they aren't in the military. They are civilians who are cops.

Quoted: Just reading the first page off the other site, all the cops kept refering to us as "civilians". They are civilians too, they aren't in the military. They are civilians who are cops.

Uh oh.......now you gone and done it.
They will swarm on you with their dictionaries to prove you wrong !!!

Anyone have that "special olympics" pic?

You know which one,

Quoted: Just reading the first page off the other site, all the cops kept refering to us as "civilians". They are civilians too, they aren't in the military. They are civilians who are cops.

And THAT my friend is the "us v. them" mentality

I think I stated why I registered and thought it ironic how some of those who have to carry guns all day and enforce laws having to deal with firearms dont seem to know what they should and thought it would be of interest to others.

A few YEARS worth of posts? I think I have all of 30 posts. I have broadband and it is easy and quick to read and post when you dont have to wait.

I think you have exposed what you are as much as you think I have myself.

Now, if you dont mind, someone is knocking at my cave ()

S.O.

Quoted: Quoted: Just reading the first page off the other site, all the cops kept refering to us as "civilians". They are civilians too, they aren't in the military. They are civilians who are cops. Shhhhh! Don't say that too loudly! It's supposed to be a secret! Here's the best post from that thread: "And that's another reason that I really don't care for citizens with CCWs. Too many of them think that they can outshoot us and are thus better qualified to carry guins in public. "I really don't care who has a range in their back yard or how many beer cans they plink at. Few civilians undergo the stressfire training that we get on a regular basis, including night shooting, cover shooting, timed shooting from the holster or simulator shoot/don't-shoot training that we do. Few know the laws of deadly force adequately and way too many civilians think that a CCW makes them an adjundct cop, ready to run out and stop criminals in their tracks. "So please...take that Walter Mitty "I'm better trained than most cops..." BS and follow MORA's advice. You aren't one of us and you don't know how we train or what we can do. You've been fed a line of crap from some gun magazine writer and you think that you're the end-all. That's you're business but coming here and throwing it in our faces is the height of arrogance." - by DC_Cop, who appears to be a Moderator on the site! BTW, SorryOciffer, are you banned at that site now? It says 'Banned' under your Board name. Eric The(ThereIsNoSuchThingAs'CiviliansVsCops'~It's'CiviliansVsOtherCivilians')Hun

ETH, it wouldn't surprise me. It seems like a place for D.U.'ers with badges.

S.O.- gun rag approved fastmover and general gun tote'n bad-ass!

Well, like there are civilians that are anti, there are LEOs that are elitists. I am a black sheep in my department. Since we don't carry inside the jail, they restricted who can carry. I was one they tried to stop. The old warden was fired, and I took him to Federal Court and won. They had to let me qualify, seems that someone tried to sabatoge me in some of the drills... Word after I did them and out shot every one... was I have really good gun skills.
There are lots of elitist we are better than you in my department. But myself along with others aren't. We are for CCW, against the AWB and if I am shooting and a "civilain" is there... I try to help them if needed. The cops here are not the elitists, we are the good guys, the ones that think they are better, would not come here.

Quoted: ... It is hard for a non LEO to come away from such a thread and not see "Us Vs Them" written all over it. ...

So – you’ve never seen a thread here that would convince an LEO that some non-LEO’s (or civilians or whatever) here also have a ‘them vs. us” attitude?

Quoted: Well, like there are civilians that are anti, there are LEOs that are elitists. I am a black sheep in my department. Since we don't carry inside the jail, they restricted who can carry. I was one they tried to stop. The old warden was fired, and I took him to Federal Court and won. They had to let me qualify, seems that someone tried to sabatoge me in some of the drills... Word after I did them and out shot every one... was I have really good gun skills. There are lots of elitist we are better than you in my department. But myself along with others aren't. We are for CCW, against the AWB and if I am shooting and a "civilain" is there... I try to help them if needed. The cops here are not the elitists, we are the good guys, the ones that think they are better, would not come here.

Well said, Wind. I do hope that I never came off in my posts as thinking that all cops are suck or are idiots who are a danger to themselves. I know that is not the case, but damn, some of these guys...

S.O.

Quoted: Quoted: ... It is hard for a non LEO to come away from such a thread and not see "Us Vs Them" written all over it. ... So – you’ve never seen a thread here that would convince an LEO that some non-LEO’s (or civilians or whatever) here also have a ‘them vs. us” attitude?

Yes, I have but MOST, IMO have been the result of some sort of alledged abuse of power or over-reactions. Ie, shooting dogs, using questionable tactics to gain a search, or simply in-action. Of course, we can only go by what is reported/posted and by who. Not being there 1st hand is the limiting factor as to how much credence to give to such threads. Most are'nt quite as clear cut and in the open as this rift seems to be. Fair assessment?

S.O.

Sorry I got into this late. I registered and attempted to post over there, but is seems either the thread was locked, or they are having issues.

Either way, here's what I wanted to post over there:
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WOW (what a thread)!

Howdy gentlemen.

This is my first post, so let me give you a little background; My Dad, his Dad, and his brother were all in Law Enforcement. I'm a bit of a black sheep in the family because I didn't become a cop. I chose to go into the business world because I didn't want to risk my life, walk the political line (I grew up in NJ), and have my wife worry if I was going to come home with every passing siren.  I respect and admire your courage and your choice of career.

I truly do appreciate that you guys put your lives on the line every day, and I put my money where my mouth is (I support and will continue to support various FO/PB type associations).  You may have heard it before, but not from me, and not here, so:

Thank you for what you do!

That being said, I wasn't real crazy about HR 218 (despite my LEAA membership).  You see, I dislike the idea of any privileged class of citizen.  You may not like it, and you may even disagree with me (you’d be mistaken, however), but a "regular joe" (like me) is exactly what you become when you go off-duty outside of your jurisdiction or retire.

HR 218 doesn't allow you to enforce any law, period.  It is only a means to protect yourself, your loved ones, and others if they are in grave danger.  Is that a good thing?  Hell yes!  Should it only apply to someone who has a badge, or used to have one?  Hell no!

I am not under any delusions of grandeur.  I am not an LEO, nor am I a wannabe - “Rambo” or otherwise, but  I am a trained (currently working on a multi-state instructor certification) CCW holder. Training? See previous statement. Background checks?  Sometimes I think that the FBI has more of my fingerprints than I do.  :D

At this point, I hold permits in several states, and am able to legally carry in some 30.  The only benefit HR 218 gives you, rather than me, applies in the places that are hostile to the idea of anyone other than a uniform with a gun (NY, NJ, IL, WI, CA, etc.).

The question becomes, in those places, does your life have more value than mine?  How bout my wife or anyone else for that matter?

If you answered “yes”, please find another job.  The citizens of the United States don’t need your “protection”.

If you answered “no”, then please try to understand why there are people out there that cringe when they see legislation that exempts some, but not all, from state CCW restrictions.

Some of us even like you guys, and LOVE the fact that you are now able to carry in those special places like NJ.  We just think it's a little unfair when someone cops (no pun intended) a "we're the police, so you don't count" attitude.

Thanks again for the job you do, and thanks for taking the time to read my post.

-Me

PS: If anyone is wondering, I'm one of those guys that wandered in from AR15.com.  No disrespect, but if you use an AR type patrol carbine, you might learn something over there.

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-FMD

Quoted: Yeah, I read a lot of "We're COPS and we'll now protect you wherever we happen to be!" in that thread (along with the typical "we're MUCH better with guns than your typical "civilian"). As you pointed out there are cops with sub-par gun skills and there are "civilians" that can put a lot of cops to shame. I think it boils down to this: We are looking to exend our RIGHT of self-defense to cover us WHEREVER we are.  Some of the posters over there seem to think of it as extending their POLICE POWERS when they go somewhere.  That's not a good mindset to have.  As pointed out, cops do NOT have an legal obligation to protect or defend ANYONE and that sure doesn't change when not on duty and out of jurisdiction.

+1

Nevermind, delete.