OK.  I did my 3rd renewal for my CHL.  I have heard from 2 instructors if you get read your Miranda rights to politely reply"No I do not understand what you just said.  Please take me to jail and I will call my attorney who knows what you mean"  But I had a CHL instructor say this was BS.
 Look if your being read Miranda, your already going to jail.  It seems that if avoid Miranda, you are better off once you enter the system.  I don't plan on going to jail anytime soon.  Was just wondering what the right course of action would be.  Also would like to avoid the Mag light to the forehead if possible.

Ask for your attorney and say nothing else.

1. What is a CHL?

2. Just because you are read your Miranda rights doesn't necessarily mean you are going to jail.  

If you understand your rights, say so and just request an attorney if you want.  The first reply sounds like a smartass kinda jab, but I might be misunderstanding your post .  

You don't really AVOID Miranda...you just avoid answering questions.  Real simple, and well within your rights.  If you really don't understand what the officer tells you, tell him so...and he SHOULD make the necessary accomodations prior to your invokation/waiver takes place.

Quoted:
1. What is a CHL?

quote]

Concealed Handgun License.  In Texas we call it a CHL, Not CCW.  More of that independence stuff

I just found it strange that instructors had 2 very different approaches to it.

1. You have the right to remain silent.
2. Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law.
3. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning.
4. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you by the court before any questioning.
5. If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney.
6. Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present?

Pay special attention to statement number 1.

Quoted: I have heard from 2 instructors if you get read your Miranda rights to politely reply"No I do not understand what you just said.  Please take me to jail and I will call my attorney who knows what you mean"  But I had a CHL instructor say this was BS.

Talk to a lawyer knowledgeable about this area.  Don't rely on laymen for legal information - you don't talk to your plumber for suggestion about your heart problems do you?

Quoted: 1. You have the right to remain silent. 2. Anything you do say may be used against you in a court of law. 3. You have the right to consult an attorney before speaking to the police and to have an attorney present during questioning. 4. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you by the court before any questioning. 5. If you decide to answer questions now without an attorney present you will still have the right to stop answering at any time until you talk to an attorney. 6. Knowing and understanding your rights as I have explained them to you, are you willing to answer my questions without an attorney present? Pay special attention to statement number 1.

I'll take number one for fifty bucks Pat.

Aswer yes to question 1-4, then invoke miranda to avoid any questioning.  

Quoted: Quoted: I have heard from 2 instructors if you get read your Miranda rights to politely reply"No I do not understand what you just said.  Please take me to jail and I will call my attorney who knows what you mean"  But I had a CHL instructor say this was BS. Talk to a lawyer knowledgeable about this area.  Don't rely on laymen for legal information - you don't talk to your plumber for suggestion about your heart problems do you?

Well the idea is that this guy is your instrucotr and instructing you to do something.  So in this case, it's valid.  It's not like I got advice from the paperboy.  He's a CCW instructor covering events that can occur.  So yes, I do and have asked an instructor questions relating to carrying a weapon.

FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry.

edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake.

Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake.

Hmm intersting.  I just hope to never be in such a situation that I am being read Miranda.

This all got a little murky a couple of months ago, when the supremes ruled on the case out of Nevada where the guy wouldn't show the cops his ID.

I think this is how it goes now:
1.  Miranda used to apply to all conversations with the police, whether you are going to be arrested or not.
2.  If a policeman asks you a question and you refuse to answer, they can arrest you, and then miranda applies.  

Correct me if I am wrong.

Quoted: This all got a little murky a couple of months ago, when the supremes ruled on the case out of Nevada where the guy wouldn't show the cops his ID. I think this is how it goes now: 1.  Miranda used to apply to all conversations with the police, whether you are going to be arrested or not. 2.  If a policeman asks you a question and you refuse to answer, they can arrest you, and then miranda applies.   Correct me if I am wrong.

Dunno.  We got a certain level of "Cowboy Justice" here.  I repsect LEO's but really don't want to be on the wrong side of the fence...

Quoted: I think this is how it goes now: 1.  Miranda used to apply to all conversations with the police, whether you are going to be arrested or not. 2.  If a policeman asks you a question and you refuse to answer, they can arrest you, and then miranda applies.   Correct me if I am wrong.

You are wrong.
Miranda applies to questioning while in custody only.
To say that it applies in "all" interactions with us is incorrect. I arrest plenty of people who never get read their Miranda. Why? Because I have no intention of questioning them.

The "Miranda Rights" is a warning.  Basically it just reminds you what your rights are, when you're placed under arrest.

Quoted: The "Miranda Rights" is a warning.  Basically it just reminds you what your rights are, when you're placed under arrest.

Yes, but they do ask you to confirm you are aware of your rights.  That's why I was curious about very politely letting the LEO know I am not an attorney and that I prefer my attorney interpret the legal jargon he just read from the card.  2 instructors whole heartedly agreed, 1 did not.

This all got a little murky a couple of months ago, when the supremes ruled on the case out of Nevada where the guy wouldn't show the cops his ID.

- The Hiibel case has nothing to do with Miranda warnings.

Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake.

cite?

Quoted: Well the idea is that this guy is your instrucotr and instructing you to do something.  So in this case, it's valid.  It's not like I got advice from the paperboy.  He's a CCW instructor covering events that can occur.

Just because an instructor knows how to teach you to shoot a handgun that does NOT make him an expert by any means on the law.  

The anaogy here would be to go to your PC saleman and ask him questions about Object Oriented Design issues with a Real Time envirionment (wich would be the domain of a Software Engineer).  While both positions are computer related the salesman is unlikely to answer your question correcty.

Most people are surprised at how complex the law becomes ESPECIALLY when it comes to use of lethal force issues.  FIRE Institute course come with a discussion regarding the legal aspects of self defense.  The talk is give by a Lawyer, and 5 minutes into the lecture you realize its far more complex than people (including LEOs) realize.  The lawyer gave 3 excellent recomendations.

1) Keep your mouth SHUT!

2) You WILL be arrested - just assume it and don't try to talk your way out of no going 'downtown', just ask to talk with your attourney.

3) Talk with an attouney BEFORE you need to use that firearm, find one that is knowledgable in the area and is gun friendly.  That way you will know who to call should you ever need to defend yourself.  Plus the local attourney can tell you of any specific issues related to your state/county/city.

Quoted: Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake. cite?

if you mean site, i read it in a newspaper about a year ago, valley morning star

Quoted: Quoted: Well the idea is that this guy is your instrucotr and instructing you to do something.  So in this case, it's valid.  It's not like I got advice from the paperboy.  He's a CCW instructor covering events that can occur.   Just because an instructor knows how to teach you to shoot a handgun that does NOT make him an expert by any means on the law.   The anaogy here would be to go to your PC saleman and ask him questions about Object Oriented Design issues with a Real Time envirionment (wich would be the domain of a Software Engineer).  While both positions are computer related the salesman is unlikely to answer your question correcty. Most people are surprised at how complex the law becomes ESPECIALLY when it comes to use of lethal force issues.  FIRE Institute course come with a discussion regarding the legal aspects of self defense.  The talk is give by a Lawyer, and 5 minutes into the lecture you realize its far more complex than people (including LEOs) realize.  The lawyer gave 3 excellent recomendations. 1) Keep your mouth SHUT! 2) You WILL be arrested - just assume it and don't try to talk your way out of no going 'downtown', just ask to talk with your attourney. 3) Talk with an attouney BEFORE you need to use that firearm, find one that is knowledgable in the area and is gun friendly.  That way you will know who to call should you ever need to defend yourself.  Plus the local attourney can tell you of any specific issues related to your state/county/city.

I did this when I first got my carry permit.  Actually I have changed attornies over the years.  But yes, you are very right I have his card in my wallet in case I need it.

Quoted: Quoted: The "Miranda Rights" is a warning.  Basically it just reminds you what your rights are, when you're placed under arrest. Yes, but they do ask you to confirm you are aware of your rights.  That's why I was curious about very politely letting the LEO know I am not an attorney and that I prefer my attorney interpret the legal jargon he just read from the card.  2 instructors whole heartedly agreed, 1 did not.

Well they're not loaded with legal jargon.  I think it's pretty simple and easy to follow.  All you'd be doing is confirming that you understand you don't have to talk.

Quoted: I have heard from 2 instructors if you get read your Miranda rights to politely reply"No I do not understand what you just said.  Please take me to jail and I will call my attorney who knows what you mean"

That sounds absolutely absurd.  Why not just invoke your right to remain silent and request council?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The "Miranda Rights" is a warning.  Basically it just reminds you what your rights are, when you're placed under arrest. Yes, but they do ask you to confirm you are aware of your rights.  That's why I was curious about very politely letting the LEO know I am not an attorney and that I prefer my attorney interpret the legal jargon he just read from the card.  2 instructors whole heartedly agreed, 1 did not. Well they're not loaded with legal jargon.  I think it's pretty simple and easy to follow.  All you'd be doing is confirming that you understand you don't have to talk.

But then aren't you also confirming that you understand you may be incriminating yourself and such?  Not trying to begin a flame session.

Quoted: Quoted: I have heard from 2 instructors if you get read your Miranda rights to politely reply"No I do not understand what you just said.  Please take me to jail and I will call my attorney who knows what you mean"   That sounds absolutely absurd.  Why not just invoke your right to remain silent and request council?

I think the idea is to let the LEO know your not being a prick and simply prefer to have an attorney.  I guess saying you invoke your right to be silent would work too as long as you don't say it in a smart ass manner. Keep in mind I am in Texas, not Virginia.  Cops really are different here.

There is case law, sorry no law books available now for cite, that a subject merely needs to be advised of his rights under Miranda. Comprehension is not required.

Case law involved a subject who did not speak/understand English.

If any others could elaborate I would appreciate it.

BTW, saying you don't understand your rights under Miranda will accomplish nothing except make you look like an idiot to the officers, grand jury and judge/jury.

-Z

Quoted: BTW, saying you don't understand your rights under Miranda will accomplish nothing except make you look like an idiot to the officers, grand jury and judge/jury.

Hmm Intersting opinion.  But it is just that, an opinion.  
Why is one an idiot for not being able to interpret the ramifications of law?
When your freedom and future is at stake, I will go ahead and be an idiot I guess.  But a nice idiot,

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake. cite? if you mean site, i read it in a newspaper about a year ago, valley morning star

No, I meant cite. But without one, I'm calling BS. Either the story was wrong or you are. The order of the rights or the actual words are immaterial, and couldn't account for the difference between life in prison and the electric chair.

Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake.

Incorrect information. Per California v. Prysock, 453 U.S. 355 (1981), the Supreme Court has rules that only the substance of Miranda needs to be communicated, not the exact words. This ruling has been affirmed a number of times.

Quoted: FYI:  alot of judges throw out cases if they can prove you read a subject his mirand rights from memory instead of reading of a card that all LE agents should carry. edited to add:  any mistakes done while reading miranda, i.e. wrong order or different words voids the miranda rights as per a judge that tried a murder case locally.  guy got life instaed of death from this mistake.

That is incorrect.

OK guys.  I am responsible for enough flames being the troll and such(just ask garandman).  I was just looking for the correct thing to do should I ever end up bing in a mess like that.  I am reasonably sure I will choose to be quiet and take my phone call.  I just didn't know if there was a case supporting likewise.
Flame off!

Quoted: Its simple, they only have to read you miranda if you are under arrest and they intend to question you about a suspected crime.  Only a moron does not understand the plain simple language of miranda.  As stated, shutup and ask for a lawyer.

How many times has the supreme court debated the meaning of the various items in Miranda?

If they can not come to a clear decision that 100% of them agree on, how can anyone else hope to understand them?

just some food for thought...

Quoted: Quoted: Its simple, they only have to read you miranda if you are under arrest and they intend to question you about a suspected crime.  Only a moron does not understand the plain simple language of miranda.  As stated, shutup and ask for a lawyer. How many times has the supreme court debated the meaning of the various items in Miranda? If they can not come to a clear decision that 100% of them agree on, how can anyone else hope to understand them? just some food for thought...

How's the saying go??? The Supreme Court isn't final because their right.  Their Supreme Court is right becasue their final...

Quoted: Quoted: BTW, saying you don't understand your rights under Miranda will accomplish nothing except make you look like an idiot to the officers, grand jury and judge/jury. Hmm Intersting opinion.  But it is just that, an opinion.   Why is one an idiot for not being able to interpret the ramifications of law? When your freedom and future is at stake, I will go ahead and be an idiot I guess.  But a nice idiot,

Of course its an opinion. But one based on experience...

As explained before, the concepts of Mirand are very simple:

1) Shut the fuck up.
2) Shut the fuck up or you will incriminate yourself.
3) You can have an attorney tell you to shut the fuck up.
4) If you are poor, we will give you an attorney to tell you to shut the fuck up.
5) Do you understand that I am telling you to shut the fuck up?
6) Now that I've told you to shut the fuck up, will you please be a dumbass and incriminate yourself?

Do you understand the ramifications now. Its very simple. Please don't tell me that you don't understand the concept. You really don't strike me as an idiot.

-Z

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Its simple, they only have to read you miranda if you are under arrest and they intend to question you about a suspected crime.  Only a moron does not understand the plain simple language of miranda.  As stated, shutup and ask for a lawyer. How many times has the supreme court debated the meaning of the various items in Miranda? If they can not come to a clear decision that 100% of them agree on, how can anyone else hope to understand them? just some food for thought... How's the saying go??? The Supreme Court isn't final because their right.  Their Supreme Court is right becasue their final...

"We are not unaware that we are not final because we are infallible; we know that we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson in Brown v. Allen, 1953.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Its simple, they only have to read you miranda if you are under arrest and they intend to question you about a suspected crime.  Only a moron does not understand the plain simple language of miranda.  As stated, shutup and ask for a lawyer. How many times has the supreme court debated the meaning of the various items in Miranda? If they can not come to a clear decision that 100% of them agree on, how can anyone else hope to understand them? just some food for thought... How's the saying go??? The Supreme Court isn't final because their right.  Their Supreme Court is right becasue their final... "We are not unaware that we are not final because we are infallible; we know that we are infallible only because we are final." Justice Robert H. Jackson in Brown v. Allen, 1953.

Close.  So I ghettoed it out a bit

Quoted: Quoted: The "Miranda Rights" is a warning.  Basically it just reminds you what your rights are, when you're placed under arrest. Yes, but they do ask you to confirm you are aware of your rights.  That's why I was curious about very politely letting the LEO know I am not an attorney and that I prefer my attorney interpret the legal jargon he just read from the card.  2 instructors whole heartedly agreed, 1 did not.

No your instructors are being dumb-asses.

1) Admitting that you understand the Rights doesn't incriminate anything. It just shows you understand basic english.
2) "not understanding" simple english is a sure way to get labeled a wise ass or trouble maker. (DO YOU like wise ass's or troublemakers?)
3) It USED to be if the EXACT warning that was required wasn't given properly, confessions, or interogations could be thrown out. That changed several years ago. The SCOTUS has said that the officers must substantially comply with the warning. If they miss a word or 2, or read the sentences out of order, w/o changing the meaning of the warning, IT IS STILL GOOD.

Next "you are going to jail". Yup, if Miranda comes out there is a good chance you are. BUT you may not be. The police have to have you in custody, and want to interogate you about a crime. Custody is sometimes not exactly as it appears.

If, for instance, you are involved in a self defense shooting at a mall, killing, or rendering the attacker unable to speak. Bystanders call PD, and just after the shots are fired the first officer shows up. You are pointed out as a participant in the shooting to the responding officer.

That officer is going to put you at gunpoint, wait for more help, and eventually handcuff, and search you.

For the purposes of Miranda, you are in Custody. It is more of a Terry Stop-Frisk at that point because they have a reasonable articulable suspicion that you were involved in a shooting. They may not have PC at that point, but they need to Mirandize to question.

If they talk to witnesses, ID you (run a crim hist check, CHL stauts check etc, and find out you are a GG), ID the other party (run a crim hist check, determin BG status, or recognize him as a frequent felon.........) find evidence - ie BG's gun, knife, other weapon. It is possible that they would want to talk to you, to get your side of the story, so they can say "he said he shoot in self defense, we believed him, we released him". THAT IS A LARGE GAMBLE ON YOUR PART.

Here's my list of things I think you should do.

1) Provide name, and any biographical data the police request, including CHL.
2) Give a quick statement, when things are a bit calm, "I used force to defend myself from a deadly force attack intitated by the other person".
3) IMMIDEATELY after that say "I DO NOT WISH TO MAKE ANY FURTHER STATEMENTS UNTIL AFTER I HAVE TALKED TO AN ATTORNEY". Say it like that, assert you right to cousel before they mirandize you.
4) Remain as calm as possible.
5) Do not get rude, smart, or demandy.
6) Keep as quiet as possible, no chit chat, talking to self while in the police car, station, or calling home from the cellblock in the jail.

FYI #2 is optional.

Anyone who is saying they don't understand the elements of Miranda is either an imbecile or playing games. Its not rocket science, people.

This is totally idiotic.

The whole POINT of Miranda is to advise you of the right NOT to answer questions.  Why would anyone claim NOT to understandd that.

Shut your mouth and speak first and only to a lawyer, YOUR lawyer.

One of our local judges gets pissed off if we mirandize from memory.  She bitched at me once outside court after i had testified that i mirandized the subject from memory. "What if you are asked to recite the miranda warning for the jury and miss a word?"

So now all my reports read, "I mirandized the suspect from my department issued mirandad card. He answerd "yes" to questions 1- 4, and agreed to talk to me."

Quoted:
"What if you are asked to recite the miranda warning for the jury and miss a word?"
quote]

Judges like that totally piss me off. What a stupid question!

What if you forgot how to tie your shoes in the morning?
What if you forgot how to strap on your Depends?
What if you forgot how to say your freakin' name?

Worthless.

-Z

Quoted: Ask for your attorney and say nothing else.

+1

Quoted: There is case law, sorry no law books available now for cite, that a subject merely needs to be advised of his rights under Miranda. Comprehension is not required. Case law involved a subject who did not speak/understand English. If any others could elaborate I would appreciate it. BTW, saying you don't understand your rights under Miranda will accomplish nothing except make you look like an idiot to the officers, grand jury and judge/jury. -Z

I'd like for you to IM a cite on this when you get the opportunity. As I understand it, a waiver of one's Miranda rights is effective only if done both knowingly (on purpose) and voluntarily

In order for the Miranada Warning to be valid, it has to be done in a language that the person understands.  You can't mirandize a Spainish speaker in English then expect the results to stand up in court.

NEVER SAY A WORD....EVER.....

Even if you have a bloody knife in your hand and a severed head in your other hand....never say a word.

- OJ Simpson