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n the United States military, the process of awarding a medal begins with preparation of a form prescribed by official regulations.  The current Navy form (OPNAV 1650/3, “Personal Award Recommendation”), substantively identical to the one in use during John Kerry’s time in Vietnam thirty years ago, provides that when an award is recommended, attached to that recommendation is a “proposed citation.”  A citation, in essence, is a narrative description of the “service” that the recipient performed to warrant the award.  In other words, the citation explains why the award was made and in what way it was earned.  (The regulations pertaining to Personal Award Recommendations also reccomend that combat awards be supported by at least two witnesses.) Here’s where it gets puzzling.  Lieutenant John Kerry’s award for the Silver Star has—not one citation, but three—an unheard of number for a single award. Understandably, as we shall see, only Kerry’s most recent citation—nearly two decades older than the first and signed by a Secretary of the Navy who was years away from that office when Lieutenant Kerry, now Senator Kerry, originally obtained the award—appears on his website.  (Not one of the three citations, incidentally, refer to the combat “V” that appears on Kerry’s website’s DD 214.) * * * All three citations are undated. Citation alterations According to Citation 1—apparently prepared soon after the February 28, 1969 episode it describes and laced with the accolades “expertly,” “without hesitation,” “devotion to duty,” “courage under fire” and “outstanding leadership”—three PCFs came under fire, returned it, and embarked indigenous troops onto the shore.  Kerry’s boat and another then moved upstream, where “Kerry’s craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard” (i.e., it missed).  He beached the boat and “an enemy soldier sprang up from his position . . . and fled” (i.e., turned and ran). Kerry “pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him” (i.e., Kerry chased a man running away, lugging a rocket launcher), and apparently shot him in the back—although we can’t know because there was no witness, let alone the recommended two.  (Incidentally, no one else in that episode was awarded a Silver Star). Although Citation 2 also is undated, we can still ascertain when it was issued.  Kerry’s first citation was for action on February 28, 1969, so Citation 2 had to be issued some time after that, but probably not immediately.  Citation 2 was signed by Admiral John J. Hyland, as Commander in Chief of the Pacific Fleet, who no longer served in that capacity after December 5, 1970.  Thus, Kerry’s second citation had to have been issued some time between February 29, 1969 (following Citation 1) and December 5, 1970 (when Hyland was no longer CINCPAC).  Significantly, Kerry left Vietnam in “early 1969” (his website’s timeline) and was separated from service on March 1, 1970.  This means that it is likely Citation 2 was issued some time in the almost two years after his departure from Vietnam but before late 1970—when he was back in the United States. Describing the February 28, 1969 incident, Citation 2—considerably shorter than Citation 1, but including the accolades “utter disregard for his own safety,” “daring and courageous” and “extraordinary daring and personal courage”—presents a very different picture because of a significant omission.  This time, it seems, Kerry “led a landing party ashore in pursuit of the enemy.  Upon sweeping the area, an immediate search uncovered an enemy rest and supply area which was destroyed.”  Vanished is the enemy soldier of Citation 1, springing up from ten feet away, carrying a rocket launcher, turning, running behind a hut, and being back-shot by Kerry.  Indeed, in Citation 2’s version, there were no enemy soldiers jumping out of spider holes.  Most important, gone is any implication that the current presidential candidate shot an unarmed enemy soldier in the back. Citation 2 raises two important and intriguing questions.  First, why would Kerry bother to have a second citation issued?  The obvious answer is that he wanted to expunge from the record that he had shot a fleeing enemy soldier in the back. Another possible explanation, speculative though plausible, is found in the relative ranks held by Admirals Zumwalt and Hyland at that time.  Zumwalt had “only” three stars, Hyland four.  The politically ambitious Kerry, in a ploy (see below) that he may have repeated later in his career, could well have sought to upgrade his citation from three stars to four (especially since, at that time, it was questionable whether a three-star admiral had the authority to issue a Silver Star). The other important and intriguing question is how a lieutenant (junior grade), far down on the totem pole and then separated from service, could have induced an active duty four-star admiral, not only to reissue a citation for the Nation’s third-highest award, but to rewrite it by sanitizing Kerry’s killing of a fleeing enemy soldier.  Unfortunately, Admiral Hyland is dead, so we can’t ask him.  But there is someone else we can ask: the senior senator from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy.  Why Kennedy?  Because at the time the sanitized Citation 2 was issued, Kerry and Kennedy were pals.  For example, there is a photograph of the two taking a stroll together on April 21, 1971, not long after Citation 2 was issued.  The photo’s caption reads: “Senator Ted Kennedy and John Kerry discuss the Supreme Court injunction against Vietnam veterans sleeping on the Mall and whether the vets ought to risk violating it.  Washington, D.C., April 21, 1971.”  (The photo is at www.vietnamwar.com/JohnKerrySilverStar.htm). Citation 3, like Citations 1 and 2, is undated.  But, again, we can narrow the time frame, since it was signed by John Lehman as Secretary of the Navy.  Lehman served from February1981 to April 1987—long after Kerry left Vietnam, long after he was separated from service, and during Kerry’s tenure as a United States Senator. While it is not difficult to understand why Kerry apparently sought and obtained a sanitized second version of his Silver Star citation, at first glance it is not so easy to surmise why Kerry went after yet a third citation, this time from Lehman (especially because the third citation is word-for-word, in every important respect, the same as the second).  One theory dovetails with what may well have motivated him, at least in part, to prefer Hyland’s imprimatur over Zumwald’s.  Kerry, now a senator, may have been trying to upgrade his award, issued by a couple of “mere” admirals, to one issued by the Secretary of the Navy.

This fucking Kerry guy is so full of shit its coming out of his ears.

Its no wonder he won't release all of his records, as they would include the requests which led to these "change" to his silver star citation.  

Kerry in a word is "FUKED"

OUTSTANDING! I heard this on GG Liddy... I raced back to the office, hoping I could find the write-up! Thanks!

1 Silver star, however the Citation (the why he got it) has been rewritten twice over a period of 20 years or so.

Quoted: Am I reading this right? He applied/received the Silver Star Three Times, each with a different story? Or is this regarding three different decorations?

No.  He received 1 SS, but the citation for the award was rewritten twice AFTER the "original" citation was SIGNED by RADM Zumwalt.  You can rest assured that neither Zumwalt, Hyland, nor Lehman WROTE the citation(s) in question.

This is a fishing story where the fish gets bigger each time the story is told...

Anybody know what Melba is?

Brass,

Like you said.  You KNOW the reason why!

If John F'n Kerry could figure out a way to get nominated fo a MoH, he would do it.  

If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game.

To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low.

For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong.

Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize.

The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American.

Tagged

Quoted: Quoted: Anybody know what Melba is? Wobblin, I'll take Toast for $1,000

Heheheh.

Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low.

Fine. Tell him to STFU about his service in Vietnam then. He's the one who made it the central focus of his campaign in the first place.

Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American.

Guess what THATS EXACTLY what this is about, what he did AFTER he left Viet Nam Those citations are a direct reflection of a man who habitually LIES and tries to change his past history!

Umm these changes are AFTER he got back.

Fair game if Kerry wants to make a big deal out of serving.

A number of members of this board are Vietnam vets. I'd like their opinions.

CRC

Quoted: Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American. Guess what THATS EXACTLY what this is about, what he did AFTER he left Viet Nam Those citations are a direct reflection of a man who habitually LIES and tries to change his past history!

From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Again, lots of he said, she said, but he was awarded the medals and people who were there, at the time, say he deserved them.

Be careful who you call a liar in regard to this issue. Jumping on the 'liar' bandwagon and then being proven wrong just makes it look like you couldn't take the time to analyze his record in Congress and make a meaningful evaluation of what he stands for.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American. Guess what THATS EXACTLY what this is about, what he did AFTER he left Viet Nam Those citations are a direct reflection of a man who habitually LIES and tries to change his past history! From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Again, lots of he said, she said, but he was awarded the medals and people who were there, at the time, say he deserved them. Be careful who you call a liar in regard to this issue. Jumping on the 'liar' bandwagon and then being proven wrong just makes it look like you couldn't take the time to analyze his record in Congress and make a meaningful evaluation of what he stands for.

His record in Congress IS FULL TILT LIBERAL!

I don't know who is telling the truth but I am STILL VOTING FOR BUSH

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American. Guess what THATS EXACTLY what this is about, what he did AFTER he left Viet Nam Those citations are a direct reflection of a man who habitually LIES and tries to change his past history! From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Again, lots of he said, she said, but he was awarded the medals and people who were there, at the time, say he deserved them. Be careful who you call a liar in regard to this issue. Jumping on the 'liar' bandwagon and then being proven wrong just makes it look like you couldn't take the time to analyze his record in Congress and make a meaningful evaluation of what he stands for.

Where did you "hear" about the Swift Boat Vets admitting to lying? Please provide source. Thanks.

Rush had this story on one of his shows about a month ago.  It's nice to see it finally getting some air time though!  I hope that  traitor gets ass fucked by Mongo in the elections!

As for the people who think we should lay off Kerry's war record....
Since that's the ONLY thing he's running on, (cuz it sure as hell ain't his 'stellar' record in the Senate!) HE opened the floodgates for criticism.

By the way...where did anyone hear that Swifties are admitting to lying about Kerry's so called service?  Air America?  CNN?  Al Jazira?

and I still can't find "Unfit for Command" at local bookstores!  

This is not a suprise anymore.

Anyone can OWN Kerry if they just do a little bit of digging in his shitpile of a record. The smelliest of the shit is always at the center.

Jimbo are you nutz? His voting record is abysmal. That is why his campaign won't bring it up. His Viet Nam record is buried under lies. And rewritten to fit whatever lie he is telling this week. Do not stand up and defend this man. It only make syou look bad.

Quoted: and I still can't find "Unfit for Command" at local bookstores!

The store manager at my local B&N told me that the book was originally scheduled to be released in September, but the publishers released it prematurely on account of current political events.  As a result, not many books have been printed yet and they are having trouble filling orders.

Now back to your originally scheduled thread.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American. Guess what THATS EXACTLY what this is about, what he did AFTER he left Viet Nam Those citations are a direct reflection of a man who habitually LIES and tries to change his past history! hr From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Again, lots of he said, she said, but he was awarded the medals and people who were there, at the time, say he deserved them. Be careful who you call a liar in regard to this issue. Jumping on the 'liar' bandwagon and then being proven wrong just makes it look like you couldn't take the time to analyze his record in Congress and make a meaningful evaluation of what he stands for.

How about this - KERRY IS A F'N LIAR - We have a congressional record - YOU LOOK IT UP - I have a clear memory of being 5 miles inside Cambodia. Thats a bold outright LIE, its what among other things that hes been pushing out his rectum for the last 30+ years. Now thats called a pattern ( a huge one I might add) of lie's even my six year old knows what a lie is- I guess you don't.

From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Again, lots of he said, she said, but he was awarded the medals and people who were there, at the time, say he deserved them.

Be careful who you call a liar in regard to this issue. Jumping on the 'liar' bandwagon and then being proven wrong just makes it look like you couldn't take the time to analyze his record in Congress and make a meaningful evaluation of what he stands for.And YOUR introduction of the SBVT into the argument is nothing more than an attempt at obfuscation and (a)moral-equivalence.
Kerry and his 'Band of Brothers' have LIED about events in Vietnam. Rassman has told 20-some different versions of his rescue tale.
Kerry has been reported as jumping into the water to get him, leaning down to pluck him from the water, reaching down with a shot bleeding arm, and have a BRUISE on his fucking arm.
Kerry and his lying pals have gone one about taking gunfire from both sides of the river during that series of events, and even rescusing Rassman UNDER FIRE. None of the other boats with them in that action report ANY fire, nobody else got hit, NONE of the boats took ANY damage from anything other than the detonated mine.
There is a LOT more contradictions in all their stories, especially of who served with who on what boat, when - NONE of Kerry's 'Band of Brothers' has told the same story twice. Even that asshole that spoke for him at the convention about 'bleeding and serving together' wasn't a regular crewman of kerry's, and could only have possibly served with Kerry for 1 WEEK, before he was grazed in the head, and THAT happened on another boat. THat man then spent the rest of Kerry's swift-boat tour in the hospital. And the DNC stands him up like he was by Kerry's side through thick and thin.
So much more than that.
130 days of service in the Brown Water Navy for Kerry, and a helluva lot more than 130 questionable stories and "facts" told by him and his merry band.

Speaking of revising his citation reords, what about the efforts by Kerry and his supported to re-write history and have his date of seperation re-written from 1978 to 1970, to cover his ass on meeting illegally with leaders of a nation we were at war with, in Paris?

As for his history as a US Senator, you disengenuous asshole - the KERRY campaign has deliberately AVOIDED all discussion of those intervening 30 years and chosen to falsely portray themselves, their Party as 'War Heroes' in a shallow attempt to win the Office. They CAN'T stand on his record as a Senator, and for that very reason they chose to front this Vietnam crap as both lightning rod and shield. THEN they whine like little bitches when a 527 that has spent 1/30th the amount of money that George Soros has donated to Kerry-supporting fronts like MoveOn that has STRONG coordinating ties to the DNC in violation of the 527 regs.
They whine and threaten to sue any media stations that broadcast the SBVT ad.
They whine and ask book distrubitors / selles to BAN their book.
They whine and threaten to sue the publisher of their book.
They whine and file a complaint with the FEC.
They whine that the President should VIOLATE THE LAW and censure SBVT.
They whine and demand the President to condemn the ad - something he ALREADY did when their first ad came out ~10 days ago - and when the President AGAIN condemns the ad, ALL 527 ads, the Kerry campaign whines 'he didn't say the right thing'.

Where is Kerry's condemnation of F9/11? - Moore's a featured guest at the DNC, IN the President's box with Carter.
Where is Kerry's condemnation of 527 ads - Liberal 527 have taken / spent 128 million, donated by the likes of millionaires like Soros, And they have the BALLS to complain about 'texas republican'.
Where is Kerry's signed Form 180 - RELEASE YOUR RECORDS, JOHN F'IN KERRY.


And THEN we can get on with talking about your total abandonment of POW/MIAs during trade talks with communist Vietnam while you sat on the Senate Foreign Trade committee - brokering deals that favored your Forbes-family relatives.

And THEN we can get on with discussing your incessant efforts over 20 years to gut and cancel military hardware system after military hardware system - all of which have been VERY effective and needed during the last 10 years.

And THEN we can get on with discussing your utter failures as a member of the Senate Subcommittee on Intelligence, your abomination of an absence record there, your efforts to submit bills GUTTING CIA budgets and Foreign Intel Gathering.

And THEN we can get on with discussing your MORE LIBERAL THAN TED KENNEDY voting record.

And THEN we can get on with discussing your fucking wife's ties to and funding of scores of Leftist / Marxist / Anarchist groups via the Tides Foundation, who will be turning the Republican convention into a bloody shambles next week.

And THEN we can discuss Kerry's blustering brave talk about Trade Protections, condemning Bush for US jobs overseas, when the problem FAR proceeds his Presidency, when the Forbes family has huge overseas business ties, when the HEINZ fortune is largely based overseas. Tell us again about the horrors of 'outsourcing', JOHN F'IN KERRY.

So far we have heard from 19 people who were there with him. Some of those 19 served on his boat, others served on other boats. But all were in the same unit and worked together, so that is irrelevent. Out of those 19 who have come forward, 17 are against Kerry while only 2 support him. I must admit, that looks bad for Kerry. I don't see how anyone could deny that regardless of which side you are on. And since he made this is an issue, he stirred up a hornet's nest.

Kerry screwed up by trying to turn this into a military service race. Had he not done so, he would have been in a far better position right now. Nobody cared about military records in 1992. Nobody cared in 1996. Nobody cared in 2000. And guess what, nobody cares today! But what they do care about is when a man steps forward claiming to be a war hero, making it the basis of his whole campaign, then being proven a liar. And his other actions such as protesting the war and paying visits to Communist officials while the war was still ongoing didn't make him many friends among veterans.

Now I understand what records it is people have been calling for and why. And more importantly, I now understand why he doesn't give them up. I see Kerry as really having a tremendous credibility problem now. And the funny thing is, he started all of this in hopes it would make Bush have a credibility issue. I guess what they say about "what goes around comes around" is really true. Bush was smart and never tried to play the "I was an ANG pilot who with great heroics defended the skies of the US in the Cold War and keep it clear of enemy bombers" routine. He might not have been a war hero, but at least he has been genuine. Now, after we at least know Kerry is seriously tarnished (and maybe he's shown his record is a complete sham), who looks like the better man? Who looks like an ass? Kery now has some serious problems among the swing vote and those who had supported him, but not to the point of being fanatically pro-Kerry. It won't matter to the hopelessly left, but it may to others. Bush only needs a small shift to guarantee victory.

-CH

Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. For example: He must have shot a defensess Viet Cong/NVA in the back because he was chasing him and the guy wound up dead. Are you sure only one bullet was fired? Perhaps there was a second bullet fired from the grassy knoll and that's really the bullet that killed the cong. Attack Kerry on his voting record. Attack his positions. Attack his actions after his return to the US. There are 30+ years of public life to scrutinize. The types of cheap character assasination attacks embodied in this thread are low and should be offensive to any honorable American.

Quoted:
If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game.



Character what?? You have got to be kidding? Have you heard ANY of the attacks on the President from the leftist in this country?? Does Michael Moore ring a bell?


Besides, Kerry started it:
“If George Bush wants to ask me questions about that through his surrogates, he owes America an explanation about whether or not he showed up for duty in the National Guard. Prove it. That's what we ought to have. I'm not going to stand around and let them play games.” -- John Kerry, NBC News, 4/26/04

He's running for President...and has YET to run on his Senatoral record. He is a liberal..that is all we need to know.

Quoted: From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story.

Your hearing this? From where and who? Ive heard of one person, not several or many.

Please provide links to info. Otherwise its spreading leftist BS in IMHO.

THanks
CH

Edited to add: BTW your spot on in regards to the rest of your post

Easy explanation for all the citations--a term called "Command Influence", possibly from the U S Senate, possibly from none other than Teddy Kennedy, that well known water-phobic excuse for a Senator.

Are we all contributing to the Bush campaign?? If you're not, I don't care if it's just $5.00,  I don't want to hear any bitching if John boy is elected.

And if you're not registered to vote, you are a Kerry supporter by default. Be anything else, but please don't be that. Your momma will be ashamed of you.

Quoted: Quoted: From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Your hearing this? From where and who? Ive heard of one person, not several or many. Please provide links to info. Otherwise its spreading leftist BS in IMHO. THanks CH Edited to add: BTW your spot on in regards to the rest of your post

I don't have time to dig through the news reports but based on my recollection:

1. At least one of the Swift boat captains said he hates Kerry for what he said upon his return to the US and signed a document basically calling Kerry a liar without even reading it.

2. The guy Kerry pulled from the water under enemy fire confirms the basics of the citation.

3. The newspaper man who was commanding a Swift boat on the scene at the time came forward and confirmed Kerry's story.

I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry embellished the story. So what? Its just a war story, but if Army officers bowed to Congressional pressure to award Kerry the medals I want to know who they were. I want them identified and courts martialled because it throws every medal awarded to every trooper in question.

Again, talk about Kerry's record and comare it to GWB's record. Talk about Kerry's positions and compare them to GWB's positions.

We are talking about an election for POTUS. What the man plans to due upon inauguration is what's important to me. And this stuff about 'its a reflection on character' only goes so far. Digging in GWB past regarding military service, drunkenness, cocain use, college grades etc. doesn't mean much either. Neither does his father's supposed ties to the Saudis.

What are the plans for the next 4 years? That's the discussion I want to hear. And spare me the far right wing knee jerk reactions about Kerry being a liberal and that's all we need to know. It used to be big deficits, uncontrolled immigration and more health care legislation were hallmarks of the liberal democrats. Now they are cornerstones of the current Conservative agenda.

Quoted: I don't have time to dig through the news reports but based on my recollection:

You made a statement. You were called out on it. It's convenient that you can't back it up (or you don't have time).. Know why you can't back it up? Because it's not true! And to say you don't have time just means you're blowing garbage out your ass you hear from your fellow socialists...

Here, we back our  mouthes up when we're called out or our whole arguement is meaningless drivel...

There are a lot of brave men here and many of them, if not all, are pissed off! For Kerry to say the things he said, spits on the service of EVERY brave American that has served this country dead or alive.

So, either back it up or STFU...MAKE TIME to go look it up!

Quoted: Quoted: If you want to go after what Kerry did upon his return to the US - fair game. To continually nit pick what he did in Viet Nam is low. Fine. Tell him to STFU about his service in Vietnam then. He's the one who made it the central focus of his campaign in the first place.

Agreed. And why does kerry keep changing his story in regards to his service? Now it's coming out that maybe his first PH did not occur because of enemy fire, etc. It's not the Swift Boat Vets who are changing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: From what I'm hearing, several of the Swift Boat people have admitted lying and several have come forward to back Kerry's story. Your hearing this? From where and who? Ive heard of one person, not several or many. Please provide links to info. Otherwise its spreading leftist BS in IMHO. THanks CH Edited to add: BTW your spot on in regards to the rest of your post I don't have time to dig through the news reports but based on my recollection: 1. At least one of the Swift boat captains said he hates Kerry for what he said upon his return to the US and signed a document basically calling Kerry a liar without even reading it. 2. The guy Kerry pulled from the water under enemy fire confirms the basics of the citation. 3. The newspaper man who was commanding a Swift boat on the scene at the time came forward and confirmed Kerry's story. I wouldn't be surprised if Kerry embellished the story. So what? Its just a war story, but if Army officers bowed to Congressional pressure to award Kerry the medals I want to know who they were. I want them identified and courts martialled because it throws every medal awarded to every trooper in question. Again, talk about Kerry's record and comare it to GWB's record. Talk about Kerry's positions and compare them to GWB's positions. We are talking about an election for POTUS. What the man plans to due upon inauguration is what's important to me. And this stuff about 'its a reflection on character' only goes so far. Digging in GWB past regarding military service, drunkenness, cocain use, college grades etc. doesn't mean much either. Neither does his father's supposed ties to the Saudis. What are the plans for the next 4 years? That's the discussion I want to hear. And spare me the far right wing knee jerk reactions about Kerry being a liberal and that's all we need to know. It used to be big deficits, uncontrolled immigration and more health care legislation were hallmarks of the liberal democrats. Now they are cornerstones of the current Conservative agenda.

Of course you don't have time to dig up something that is false.

So far you have listed 2, the same 2 everyone already knows about.  Where are the 'several', as in more have done this recently, according to you.

Why do some who purport to be on our side get so worked up about this?

If you can't figure out what he will do (not due) upon inaugaration, then you haven't been listening to HIM, Kerry.  It's pretty clear.

Of course, you throw in the obligitory stuff about how the Dems lying about Bush means nothing, but is nothing but a smokescreen to cover your decision to vote for Kerry, a decision that has already been made.

Quoted: 3. The newspaper man who was commanding a Swift boat on the scene at the time came forward and confirmed Kerry's story.

And several of his crewmen contradict him.  The fact that he's an editor for a super-liberal (and anti-gun) newspaper in Chicago is enough reason to discredit anything he writes.

GunLvr