Situation & Response

While on routine patrol I spotted a man with a rifle aiming it irratically from point to point, UP in the trees. He was yelling and shouting obscenities.....I could not tell at what he was yelling or exactly what he was saying...Dam_....Shi_.....

He was surrounded by houses on the North and South sides, an apartment complex on the West, and a College Dorm on the East. It is against the law to discharge a weapon of course in such an area....of course this does not mean you can not protect yourself.......

I was coming down the dormitory parking lot when I saw him in the field behind the dorms and surrounded by the other structures as mentioned above. (There had been allot of construction theft in the area and an armed robbery there in the past 3 weeks). It was app. 8:30 PM and the sun was setting.

The individual did not see me but when I spotted him I parked behind a huge oak tree and rolled out of the vehicle as I was calling in the situation. Backup was on its way.

I was in a defensive posture behind engine block with weapon (AR/ACOG) pointed at center of mass at 50 meters and called to the individual to put down the rifle. My exact words were,

"Sir, This is the police, put the rifle down."

He did not respond except to look at me. I repeated the command:

"Sir, This is the police, put the rifle down."

This time he walked behind a tree that was near his location. I grew very tense now and my thoughts were "What is he going to do now." With both eyes open I could not see him, but knew I had him if he tried anything. 30 Rounds, one in the chamer, and ready with a full field of view...except the stupid tree.

Suddenly, he reappeared and put his hands in the air. I ordered him away from the tree, as the rifle was no longer in his possession (Where was the rifle?? Was there someone else behind the tree?? ).

I had the subject turn as 360 for me and then had him lower his left hand (non-shooting hand from what I had observed earlier--yes some are amis..I am, but it was the best guess) and lift his shirt and turn once again to insure he was not armed. Subject was ordered to his knees and then was ordered to lock his fingers above his head.

Back-up arrived.

Back officer drew down his AR and covered me as approached subject.

I viewed area and no one else was there. Searched the perp...no weapons. And then I finally spotted his rifle I had seen from 50 yards aways...a stupid pellet rifle. I Searched the area and nothing else was there.

This fool alomost lost his life on Governemnt property over shooting at and cussing at the squirrels he was missing.

Man!

I know none of you would do what this fool did (criminal trespass, endanger those in homes around him, go behind a tree to set your rifle down.....), but would appreciate your comments on how I handled this.....

Thanks

I'm not qualified to comment on your tactics, but the end result was fine.

No one hurt, idiot off the street.



I hate to think what could have happened.

It sounds to me like you handled it just fine and showed some restraint that some may not have used. Glad it turned out alright for you.

well doc it sure sounds like u did everything right, you used force properly and you kept that idot from hurting anyone else.

Btw, is it standard for your police department to have ar's in the patrol cars, around here in Socal, only the sergents car has one.

I am on the SWAT Team. SWAT Team carries ARs  & MP5s. My back-up happened to be on my team also, so....

How clever your dept. is to make everyone a member of the SWAT team.  I guess that removes all possible question of the necessity of police to carry mp5s and m-16s.  

Been there, done that.  Write back when you actually shoot someone.  That is the true test. Hell, I almost won the lottery.

I must be the only one here who thinks you need to chill out a bit as a public servant.

First off stop assuming that every person you deal with is a perp.

This was just a kid with a BB gun trying to kill tree rats.


Locally we had an escaped convice which went out on the radio.

A cop thought he saw the perp on a bicycle. He said to stop at which point this kid on a stolen bicycle decides to ride off cause he thinks the cop is after him and the stolen bicycle. Well this ends up with SWAT and helocopters chasing this kid through a corn field.  Man that kid probably thinks that LE has nothing else to do but practice SWAT tactics on bicycle theft.

Who said he was a "kid". What if the rifle showed up to be an .308 Win and he would have shot the neighbour in the next minute blazing away at "tree rats" as you said.

Doc, handled with good professionalism.

Did somebody say "squirrels"?



Seen them dozens of times on many a college campus and always wondered if it would be worth the trouble, answer to that is a definite "no."   Funny, what an insight to how things would go down if I ever did act on my insticts to go do battle with the varmint cong while on a college campus, "Sorry officer, my alternate personality took over and I had to go Bill Murray on these little vermin"  some how I don't think that would go over too well.




Doc, I think you handled it pretty well considering all the things the wrong moves the guy had gone and made.

I'm not qualified to comment, but everyone went home unharmed. Sounds like a job well done to me.
Were any charges filed? Here in NJ his ass would have been charged with something. What? I have no idea.[whacko]
Eric

OK, Mr. Hineline,

In your expert, professional opinion, how would you have handled the situation as an LEO, and if you had been a resident of one of the houses nearby?

Consider these factors if you want to stay alive until the end of every shift:

Opportunty: does the person you are about to confront have the opportunity to harm/kill you, or a citizen.
Bare hands, rocks, knives, pistols, rifles, etc.
All pose different dangers at different distances.

Ability: is the person close enough to use whatever weapon they possess. See above.

Jeopardy: has the person demonstrated they intend to use their weapon - threats, verbal or demonstrative.  


Also Docswat clearly indicated this was a man, and not a kid/boy.

Assuming the wrong thing in police work is not like adjusting the timing on your car by guessing, or giving the wrong size of shoes to a customer - you can get killed.

You know it is real hard to recover from being dead.

Driving up to a man with a .22 rifle that was bent on homocide and hopping out of you car with you head up your a** and yelling at the guy might not be a smart thing to do.

Our SWAT Team has 27 members in a Police Dept of over 300. Each is made up of a squad of 9 and and any one time we can have as many as 5 on a shift and as few as two.. Good planning by our superiors if you ask me.

A "Perp" means an individual who is perpetrating a crime, which this guy was. This individual was 32 and had on a green t-shirt & camo pants, not your typical "kid."

Been there and done that too--military though not as an LEO.

I say "good job"! It's a sick feeling when you know you may have to pull the trigger on somebody (non-LEO's and non-military will NEVER understand this) but you went home at the end of your tour unharmed, that's what matters.
Be safe out there...

You are right, you ARE the only one.  It's easy to be brave sitting behind a computer.

Dude,

I'd say if you are Caucasion, the perp is a Negro, and the event went down in Cincinnati, then you deserve a medal!

I guess the most tense I ever got was responding to a disturbance call at a residential area.
It had just turned night time.

I went to the back of the house as my partner knocked at the front door. As I rounded the back corner of the house I came face to face with a man, about 55 yoa, holding a Glenfield .22 cal rifle in a port arms type of position. He reeked of alcohol.

He started to move and I was faster to the draw, literally. Carried S&W mod 65's (bull barrel stainless steel 38 specials) at the time.

Commanded him 5 or 6 times to put the rifle down, butt first.

I really thought I would have to shoot him after the 2nd command went unheeded. He did not move at all. I was hoping he was just startled by me and was unsure of what to do, as opposed to trying to decide to kill me or not.

I also was acquainted with him, but he did not recognize me.

We were both in the open. Hmmm.

I finally saw the light dawn in his eyes he was in deep kimchee (you vets tell me what this is), and he carefully put down the rifle.

Of course he was in his own yard and had not at that time actually done anything wrong.

His wife and my partner exited the back door at that point. I unloaded the rifle and gave it back to the wife and told the guy to call it a night. They had been arguing and he had been drinking.

Went to see him the next day. He was so embarassed by the incident he actually quit drinking.

One wrong move and one of us could have died that night.

When I think of all the close encounters with death I have had over the last 26 years in police work, not counting situations of other officers, that I am aware of where nobody got hurt or killed, I am just amazed.

I guess God does more for us than we know.


Cpl. Robert B. Allen aka [blue]Blue207[/blue]
Greenville P.D.
Greenville, S.C. 29601
(in case you were wondering)

You did a fine job.  My mistake.

Well you 1/3 right I am Caucasion, the perp was Caucasion, and it took place in GA.

..Hats off to you officer...if I had a job where I had to worry about possibly being shot by my customers...I'd of quit yesterday!
[img]http://www.finalfront.com/hosting/users/geepgeep/RTmob10550percent.JPG[/img]
I prefer the birdseye view ;-)

You done good, real good. You went home at the end of your shift, he wasn't hurt and will probably go home sooner or later.

As a conservation officer, I deal with many people with guns. Most are genuine sportsmen and women and a pleasure to deal with. I have drawn on a few occaisions and had the hammer coming back once. Didn't get all the way. Idiot pointed dbl bbl 12 ga at me when I announced myself from behind him. On third command to put it down, I started coming back almost the same time he started putting it down. Turns out he wasn't trespassing, he owned the property. Idiot uncle, supposed caretaker of the property, called in the complaint without knowing that the owner was returning home from college for Thanksgiving. Thus out-of-state tags on car. Only a fraction of a second and a long DA pull on a S&W 5906 kept him from dying on Thanksgiving.

Again, you done good!

Head to head with a .22 that may even penetrate your vest, alcohol, a domestic disturbance where most officers lose thier lives......very uncomfortable to say the very least. An officer's nightmare!

Yes, God was looking after you, and me more times that I can mention. I am very happy we all went home alive last night. If I had to shoot that guy and then to find out he only had a pellet rifle, man.....I know he would be worst off than me, but I'd have too live with it for the remainder of my days, replaying it frame by frame in my mind wondering if I could have handled it differently, I don't like the thought of that........

Doc

What was he charged with?

Criminal Trespass, a misdeameanor.

The judge said it right though in the hearing today. He looked at me and asked if there was code section for "idiot" because it may be more appropriate.....Then he told him he was lucky to be alive and bound it over to State Court.

Way to go, Doc, and thanks.

FMCDH
Semper Fidelis
Jarhead out.

-------------------
“Professionals are predictable, but the world is full of dangerous amateurs.”
--Unknown

Good job doc i'm glad everyone was safe.

I'd like to disagree with waverunner who made the point that "It's a sick feeling when you know you may have to pull the trigger on somebody (non-LEO's and non-military will NEVER understand this)"  Last I checked most LEO's don't even know this feeling because the majority of them never pull their weapons.  I also think you fail to relize that some non-LEO's and non-militay have been in situations where they may have to shoot someone ,i'm sure they feel the same.  Don't forget just because you are LEO or Military doesn't make you non-human.  

Thank you for your time.
                   [email protected]

I guess I just come from a place where open carry of firearms is the law of the land and cops are not so distrusting of the people who employ them.

If you feel that an officer with an AR15 taking aim at a person with a BB rifle is appropriate use of force then I feel sorry for you all and the police state that each of you live in. In this case an adult but Mr.Cop did not know that. Mr. Cop never saw a weapon pointed at anything other than the tops of trees. Mr. Cop never heard a shot fired.

And Finally

Mr. Cop would draw down and shoot your child in a similar situation. Any you guys support this?

Every morning my Korean girlfriend in college started the day with a fried egg on rice and a side of kimchee. And she had the nerve to ask why I didn't kiss her when I saw her at school.

Mr Hineline: I live in Los Angeles. If anyone had a rifle and refused to obey an LEO's repeated orders to disarm he'd be on a metal table in the basement of County Hospital faster than you can say Ali Babba. Guess it all depends on the city you live in. From my POV the officer acted within policy and nobody died. A good day indeed.

Like I said I feel sorry for those who can not leave the liberal Police states they live in. Those who choose to live there deserve all they get.

Well we expect more from our cops than they do in LA then.  We would send your jack booted thugs packing.

[img]http://www.mindspring.com/~uziforme/shoulder.jpg[/img]

DocSwat,

You handled it well.  I recently had my second running gun battle in 4 months, and I know how you feel when you aren't sure whether or not some dumbass is going to shoot at you, or if you will have to take a life today.

Good job.

What agency do you work for?

Ronnie

Good job!

Let's note here that the FIRST thing you did was to take cover. That one gets by some people.

What happens when they don't speak English? This happened recently here locally. The guy got shot and killed, but he lunged at officers with a club.

You can hang on to your shoes . . . They're not for me!

This is exactly what I keep harping about on here:

"Judge asked if there was any charge for being an idiot"

The judge ought to not be imposing his thoughts or ideals into the process.  He's supposed to be an impartial judge, doesn't sound like it to me.  Probably doesn't belong on the bench.

Second, he told the guy he was lucky to be alive.

Hmm.  I can only assume he said that because a trigger happy idiot nearly shot him for criminal trespass.  If he had had a real rifle, don't you think someone would have called in complaining about the shots being fired?

I think the real problem can be summed up thusly:  Your force has 300 officers when it really needs probably 100.

Where has common sense gone in America?

This is a good example of why civilians should call the local police if the feds decide to do a dynamic entry on your home. They are trained to deal with situations with armed criminals.

DocSwat: This took place in 1978, before my department had vests. Ain't that an interesting thought - no vest.


Mr. Hineline:
I asked you a few questions. Are you going to  answer them, and thus engage in a serious debate - or aren't you up to it?

Any lightweight can spout one liners, as no particular depth is particularly required.

What you got, big boy?

If you do not have the cajones to engage in a real debate I guess you riding along with a local LEO for a few Friday or Saturday nights is
really out of the question.
Walk a mile in my shoes, Mr. Hineline.

I dare you.  You might be set free.

You are so right. It is always best to wait until you have been fired upon to bring your weapon out. Also if my child had a gun, BB gun, hammer, drill, cap gun, slingshot, etc They would be supervised. Secondly (or thirdly) My child would do exactly as directed by any LEO. It's best to follow directions and sort it out latter.

just MHO

This story just does not sound right.BTW,what judge is going to ask "Is there any charge to being an idiot"?Frankly it sounds like you've been reading too many combat  magazines.

DocSwat- You handled the situation very well.  BTW- what part of GA are you from?

You did just fine fine, no one hurt.  scarry yes, but it turned out OK.  Good Job.

BTW Kimchee is fecal matter and Kimshe is a kind of rotten/decayed/fermented fish dish served by the bucket in Korea.

Your ignorance amazes me.  I'm sure with your super human vision you can easily tell the differance between the following at 25 yards in the dark in a tree.

A)BB Glock and a real one

B)Barrel of a Paintball gun and shotgun

C)Training pistal and a real gun

D).22 rifle and a .223

I wish all police had your incredible abilities and vast knowledge of all real and fake weapons at any distance.

Have you thought about making the world a better place by becoming a LEO?

PS. Why the glasses since your vision is OBVIOUSLY so spectacular?

To everyone second-guessing DOC's actions, think about this.
From his description, it was not just someone with a rifle.  It was someone behaving strangely (turning in circles and looking up while swearing) with some sort of longarm in a residential area.  At 50 meters, I doubt any of you could easily differentiate an air rifle from a .22 or a .308.  You probably wouldn't be able to tell if he was a teen or an adult.  I've seen a lot of 12 year olds who would probably look like an adult at 50 meters.  It sounds like he handled it well.  Would you just approach someone with a weapon who was behaving this way without taking serious precautions?  I sure as hell wouldn't.  It's easy to criticize when you weren't there.

And by the way, what's with the "Talk to me when you've killed somebody" attitude?  This isn't a story competition, or a who's tougher competition...he's just sharing a story.

Everyone went home alive...good job.

Just wondering Doc,

At point would you, or your ninja comrades (intention NOT implied) refuse an order, promotion, or turn in your badge if you knew that order was in violation of the Constitution? My guess, never. Your type are too addicticted to carrying around MP5s scaring women and children and shooting family pets - all legally mind you - plus you get to hide your faces like cowards while doing it. Like it or not you ARE the modern day Gestapos disquised as 'drug warriors'. Tell us all, did you and your fellow nazis give 'high fives' also when you saw pictures of that MP5 stuck in Elians face? Or tell us your true feeling when that 8 year old boy was shotgunned in the back about 10 months ago over there in CA upon the suspicions that pappa was running a amphetamine lab in his house. "Whoops!!! Sorry, our mistake!" And although you thugs might have the upper hand now, REAL patriots, those who dearly love this country and it's Constitution win in the end. And tell us, how many times a month do you stand in front of the mirror dressed in ninja black holding your MP5 admiring how tough you look?

Why did you use your rifle? What's wrong with your sidearm?

Doc, I say good job.  I just see one wrong thing.  For shooting into a rtee you need a FAL...  :)  Limbs wont deflect the shot.  :)

Congratulations to David Hineline and Agent99.  I've been lurking here for months and your idiot postings are the one's that finally forced me to register. The officer in question took a VERY serious situation and handled it perfectly.  Now along comes a couple of armchair commando morons to slam him for it. (Just look at that picture. What the hell are you wearing that makes you lean like a tree in the wind?) don't let the jerks get you down guy. I have not the slightest doubt these two would have soiled their pants and made little girly noises. Those that have been there know damn well you did good.  Agent99:  This officer is not responsible for the Elian raid, or anything else you wish to insult him with, anymore than you are responsible for the OKC bombing. Try to show a little intelligence. Josey,  every judge I've ever been before has expressed an opinion of the case after passing judgement. Some are just a little more eloquent than others. Zipster, check the distances/lighting/obstacles involved. You'd have to be almost superhuman to make that shot under stress with a pistol.  Besides.  He has a rifle, you get a rifle.  Only common sense.