Right now he's in Japan teaching conversational English to kids… anyways I've been jokingly telling him he should get me a samuri sword while he's over there, and while talking with him today it sounds like he might actually be able to… and not just a cheap reproduction or anything, but like a real sword carried by a real samuri and shit… anyways, just wondering if you guys know anything about samuri swords so I could tell him something to look for while looking for one...

Here he is in front of a temple in Kyoto:



How can you tell from looking at a sword whether it's a good quality (folded?) metal sword or not?

Shawn

Quoted: How can you tell from looking at a sword whether it's a good quality (folded?) metal sword or not?

Try and use it to kill a ninja.  Ninjas cannot defeat a true samurai sword.

Talk to Steyr Aug. He's a sword afficianado.

If it isn't Hattori Hansu steel, then it's crap!

You want sword? Here!  Buy sword!  Guaranteed real thing!  Used by Tom Cruise in movie!

Even in Japan a REAL shinken blade, which is "NEW', will cost in the $5000-$8000 range so the cost will be a telling factor, this site might help as these are made in Japan: swordstore.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.cgi/02nav/1jpsword.html.

And yes I own an iaito (practice sword, which ran about $650, purchased from that site), hope this helps.

FWIW, depending on the maker of the sword and his ranking as a swordsmith the cost varies. If it's an antique sword made by a famous sowrdsmith of the past ya could be talkin $25,000 - $250,0000 and even millions, so if I was you I'd be QUITE certain what I'm payin for.......

Mike

If i recall correctly it is very diffucult to get those out of the country. not illegal just many customs battles etc...

You can order one from a japanese smith, but it is a specialized process that takes upwards of 10 months and at least $8K,

also as far as I have seen even the low end models in japan are $2K.

they also have a huge market in Iaitos, which are katanas with a zinc-aluminum alloy blade. not for cutting just for forms in the different japanese sword m/as

this is just FYI, and I could be completely wrong. but this is what I have picked up

as far as what to look for, there are many factors but if it isn't you looking at it,
just look for quality,
quiality in fittings,
quality in polish (not etched, it should looks almost bluish)
there are many many small things to look for that even those that collect them regularly look for,
its a huge market.

Even Japan there are a lot of fakes.  The Chinese are making credible reproductions now.  Ebay is littered with scams of genuine swords.  I would have it appraised by an independent source before you lay down any real money.  

Goto Swordforum and they can tell you anything you need to know.

I was going to buy a real sword until I did some research only to find what these guys are telling you.  You will not get a real sword for less then 5 figures.  I have a LL MKV and its nice enough so you can actually cut with it.  But these are also $600.

Good information here www.aoi-art.com/ - decent swords, signed and unsigned, from the Edo period or older, usually in the 4k to 15k range.  Cheaper alternatives are handguards (Tsuba), Tantos, arrowheads, or spear (Yari) heads.

Is there much difference in price an actual Wakizashi? Been wanting to add one to the home defense arsenal for awhile now. In case , for example, some stupid fucker tries picking the lock on the front door (again). And in the very least would end up with a nasty papercut across his nose if he succeeds.

Quoted: Is there much difference in price an actual Wakizashi? Been wanting to add one to the home defense arsenal for awhile now. In case , for example, some stupid fucker tries picking the lock on the front door (again). And in the very least would end up with a nasty papercut across his nose if he succeeds.

FWIW, Cold Steel sells some very fine Japanese style swords which will handle "real use", they are reasonably priced and come in the size your looking for, infact you can have either the fancy or non-fancy versions, each equally strong. Suggest ya check them out.......

IIRC cost is less than $400 for the wakizashi.

Mike

A "real samuri sword" is like a *mil spec* AR-15, Or some poor bastard at a gun show that thinks he just got a *real* M-16.

Samuri swords are cool and all but I like the Harley Davidson swords the best. You get more slice per thrust with a HD sword plus you can pick one up at your local gunshow.




Notice the eagle above the handle. Legend has it when a warrior was on a journey the eagle would glow red if danger was nearby. Pretty cool huh!

Quoted: if, when you pick it up, you hear the sound of wailing guitars...you have found the real thing.

My point exactly.

Quoted: Quoted: How can you tell from looking at a sword whether it's a good quality (folded?) metal sword or not? Try and use it to kill a ninja.  Ninjas cannot defeat a true samurai sword.

I'd do that for sure, but I can never see any ninjas around here... no doubt because they are so sneaky and awesome.

I know ninjas are real though, I feel it inside my heart...

Shawn

Pardon me for butting in but...

That's a big-assed temple.

Well, define "real samauri sword".

If you want a vintage antique - yes - look to pay thousands to tens of dollars. Depending on the maker.  Many times you can buy just the blade and then add the rest of the parts later (and cheaper). They do have antiques like this on ebay too.

If you want modern swords, built  in the same tradtion, look for one to be thousands to tens of thousands of dollars.

That said - you can get NICE modern katanas that will peroform just as an older samauri sword would.

Paul Chen is one of the best known makers. He has a good, decent quality, making forged swords in China.  These ARE working swords - not wall hangers. They can be made razor sharp and cut through a human body. Many are used by practicers of Bushido, the Samauri martial art.

Of course there are  still custom hand made katanas made in the US too. They range from probably 500 to thousands of dollars - depending on the maker.

Check out this forum- the knowlege there is just wonderful!
forums.swordforum.com/

There was a section on Mail Call and they said that the WWII bring backs (the last of the real Samuri's) are on average $1,000,000.00  

More than likely it will have made in china stamped on it.

Well, I see a lot of misinformation here.

I went to Japan and came back with a real sword that is about 900 years old. Actually it was a tanto made by Norimune. It was the lowest priced item I could find in all of Tokyo. It was in excellent polish but it was just a blade. I paid, I think, around $1700 for it. The final price for it was $2000 after I had a shira saya and habaki made for it.  

You can buy swords in Japan there is no registration or license process if you are taking it out of the county. You simply buy the sword and they ship it to you air mail.

Well, I see a lot of misinformation here.

Yep your post was one of them.

I dont know on the process of buying one while in Tokyo. I know you can - but anyway.

$1700 for a 900 yr old blade seems like a good deal. Then again since it had a good polish, perhaps it was slighly refurbished, thus the lower price. I wont pretend to be up on the Japanesse sword market. I do look a the going rate on ebay and what people are payin for on some swords forums.

But - as I said - an antique is thousands to tens of thousands. Tantos are much less than Washisaki or Katana blades.  Many things determine the price of a sword, age, maker, documentation, condition of the blade, quality of the blade, original fittings, condition of fittings etc etc.

Dude, Cheaper-than-Dirt, $35.

It must be just as good!  I wouldn't want to get poked with one!  

You can get a Cold Steel Katana for less than $300. That probably would last and cut just as well as a hand forged Japanese Katana which cost upwards of 10k. The only reason why they are so expensive is it takes FOREVER to make, they fold the blade literally thousands of times. Modern manufacturing has taken care of alot of the work, but some people just dont think a manufactured blade is as good as a traditionally made one. Sure, not enough love goes into it, but nobody lives the Samurai lifestyle anymore either. From what I've heard, the quality and style of the CS blades are much better than even Paul Chen. Except the CS blades dont have the hammon polish, but who cares? You probably just want to chop the shit out of stuff, right?

I got the sword proof DVD from CS. Its cool to watch them cut stuff to shreds with these Katanas. from trash cans filled with water, to chunks of meat, rice mats, wooden boards in the shape of human, etc. I have no doubt in my mind you could easily lop arms/legs/head off a human oponent with these, and maybe even cut them in half (or hang by a thread) with a hard enough slash.

I plan to get one myself after seeing the abuse they put these blades through. Stay away from everything you see at Gun shows (I have NEVER seen a real sword at one). Even the old guys claiming to sell authentic WWII Katanas that look cheaper than even cheapest shop at home network katana set. Obviously "aged" to look hold, but geez, they look so damn cheap. Blades are loose, fake same (ray skin) poor braiding on handle. Its shameless how they try to sell these things.

The only "real" WWII Katanas you will find are either in Japan, a museum, or the lucky few vets who has one in thier attic somewhere. My late grandfather was one.

speaking of paul chen you can get a real nice one $600-$1200  dealer cost  ive had a couple pass thru my hands and looked to be good quality and even had a mee under the handle

I hope you are being sarcastic.

WARNING - using cheapy "wall hangers" to hack stuff can be very dangerous! I have seen a QVC video where a guy stabbed himself when the sword he was showing off snapped in two and cut him.

That said. The reason people pay 10k is more for the ARTWORK and CRAFTMANSHIP. Just like people who may more for a custom knife, sword, or car. It is for the flawless craftmanship they expect to get.

That said if you want a real working katana you can get one for under 1K pretty easily. As I said, Paul Chen is a well known brand. However  there are many custom sword makers who can make them for less.

I have never seen the cold steel one in action. And I would hesitate to use a $300 sword like that. BUT there are many good swords for a bit more than that made from spring steel that has been ground in to shape. Most sword makers dont forge with layerd steel anymore. And even those that do its not nearly as time consumeing as it used to be. They now us pnuematic hammers, vs by hand.

You can get 1000 folds in a blade only folding the steel 10 times. You can get 16K folds doing it only 15 times. Originally folding was to help get rid of carbon impurities  and gave the blade and even strength and flexablity.

Didn't most of the swords in Japan get confiscated at the end of WWII. I saw a picture a few years ago of a soldier standing infront of a stack of swords about 6 feet tall and 15 or 20 feet long. The caption indicated that the picture was taken right before the swords were dumped into the sea.

Quoted: Is there much difference in price an actual Wakizashi? Been wanting to add one to the home defense arsenal for awhile now. In case , for example, some stupid fucker tries picking the lock on the front door (again). And in the very least would end up with a nasty papercut across his nose if he succeeds.

You want a usable Wakaiashi?  Get a Paul Chen Practical Wakizashi.  It'll cost you about 200 bucks and it'll do the job.  It isn't pretty nor is it terribly traditional, but it's differentially hardened and tempered out of a good quality modern steel and forged to shape.  

There is a HUGE divide in the cost of quality swords.  You can buy good usable swords from Last Legend and Hanwei/Paul Chen.  Both of these swords will be made in China rather than Japan, which has a huge pile of bureacracy and regulation dealing with swords.  The higher end swords from these makers will be made relatively "traditionally"  though power hammers will be involved. The metallurgy and such will be good.  Where they fall down compared to the custom swords costing 1-5k more is in polish, the artistry of the hamon (hardened area), pure blade geometry (tied to the quality of polish) and the fit and finish of the Koshirae (fittings).  High quality Koshirae including the Tsuba (guard) Tsuka (hilt) and Saya (sheath) will cost about as much as the sword blade itself.  The cost may well be worth it also, because the particular construction of the japanese blade is such that a good koshirae is necessary to effective use.  The sword won't draw well with a bad saya, you can't cut with it effectively with a poor tsuka and the sword may actually fly free from the tsuka if the quality is bad enough.  So proper fit is important.  Chen's practical and practical plus series do away with some of these concerns by presenting a workable blade that dispenses with many of the aesthetics in favor of durability for regular use and affordability.  They cut well, but they, quite frankly, look like shit.   That doesn't stop a lot of iai and kenjutsu practicioners from using them for cutting practice.

Another option is a good euro-sword.  You can get a very good european style sword for much less than a comparable quality katana precisely because the hilt set up doesn't need the hand fitting to be secure.   A good Source is All Saint Blades.com who sell Angus Trims extraordinary swords.  You can get a fantastically balanced ATrim short sword for a few hundred bucks and it'll never let you down.

A true Japanese shinken (a sharp, practical, traditionally made japanese style sword) is going to cost a small fortune (several thousand dollars) an Antique Nihonto is going to cost a few times that.  A Gunto or modern Japanese military sword can be had for less money, but there are a lot of fakes out there and many gunto are crap.  The ones that aren't are being snapped up fast by collectors and Japanese sword art practicioners in Japan. There they are an economical alternative.

If you want a Katana for disciplined sword practice, find a school, talk to your sensei and buy a good Iaito first, then a shinken. You can buy American made custom blades for a fraction of a japanese made piece and they are just as good or better. (still going to pay thousands though, Howard Clark bare blades in a minimal polish START at aboput 3 grand, then you will pay another 1500 for a good polish and another 1000+ for koshirae. )  But in the mean time you can buy entirely serviceable swords for 1000-1500 bucks.

Quoted: Didn't most of the swords in Japan get confiscated at the end of WWII. I saw a picture a few years ago of a soldier standing infront of a stack of swords about 6 feet tall and 15 or 20 feet long. The caption indicated that the picture was taken right before the swords were dumped into the sea.

I'm sure some of them did. But I know at least one got through


The Japenese gov't also claims that all WWII Katanas have been accounted for, therefore, apparently, NOBODY has a true Katana war trophy.

FWIW, while I own 2 Paul Chen swords, one of the reasons I did not recommend them is THEY NO LONGER COME SHARPENED,  hence my suggestion of the Cold Steel blades. They come razor sharp right outta the box, no added expense for sharpening, which can run upwards of $300 bucks.

IMO, the Cold Steel blades are on par with the hgher dollar "folded" Chen blades, understand many a good katana has been ruined by bad technique and mis-use.

Mike

My grandfather has a WW2 katana, given to him by his uncle IIRC.  Its leather and scabbard were replaced ages ago cos the leather and wood rotted out.

Its got slight rust but otherwise its fine.  I held it once and my hand slipped while holding it, nearly cutting my thumb.

Personally I thought that a lot of the WWII blades were manufactered fairly quickly and cheaply in the military foundries, stamped blades, no folding, etc. Just to give the officers a feeling of the "samurai spirit".

Certainly the examples I've seen in antiques shops in the UK were very dodgy; _ground on_ hamon, arsenal-markings stamped onto the blade rather than the smith's mark etched on, etc.

Not that I didn't want to own one, but not at the price he was charging, nor with the ignorance he displayed about his wares. Read some books on the subject first if you have the time and visit swordforums for info.

Oh, and if your bro does come back with a decent sword, checkl the customs regulations first, if there's any sort of import duty to pay on it, get him to buy a shit 35 dollar sword, keep the receipt and throw it away. That way you don't end up paying another %age of the price to get it back into the country [1]

/PHIl

[1] This refers to an incident in Britain where somebody asked the importer how much the sword was worth, and (stupidly) he told them.

Quoted: Personally I thought that a lot of the WWII blades were manufactered fairly quickly and cheaply in the military foundries, stamped blades, no folding, etc. Just to give the officers a feeling of the "samurai spirit".

Yes - this is correct. A MAJORITY of swords on the sides of the Jap officers etc were modern blades, made in factories.  While of better quality than the chrome plated junk you see in flea markets, they paled  when compared to a real blade. At the same time they did get the job done when used as a last resort or for a beheading.

So - when you see the ad for the gun show and it says "$1,000,000 for japanesse swords!" they are refering to the 1 in a million chance that the sword you have was carried by a Jap who didnt use a factory sword, but an antique that was in his family for hundreds of years.  Those are the real treasures!

Now even the factory swords have collectors value - and as you can see - much sentimental value to people.  And thus to some they are priceless!


--------------------------------
And as for the Paul Chens not coming sharpened - that is a damn shame! They are still good blades for the money. I guess finding a friend with a grinding wheel is needed!

Quoted: You can get a Cold Steel Katana for less than $300. That probably would last and cut just as well as a hand forged Japanese Katana which cost upwards of 10k. The only reason why they are so expensive is it takes FOREVER to make, they fold the blade literally thousands of times. Modern manufacturing has taken care of alot of the work, but some people just dont think a manufactured blade is as good as a traditionally made one. Sure, not enough love goes into it, but nobody lives the Samurai lifestyle anymore either. From what I've heard, the quality and style of the CS blades are much better than even Paul Chen. Except the CS blades dont have the hammon polish, but who cares? You probably just want to chop the shit out of stuff, right? I got the sword proof DVD from CS. Its cool to watch them cut stuff to shreds with these Katanas. from trash cans filled with water, to chunks of meat, rice mats, wooden boards in the shape of human, etc. I have no doubt in my mind you could easily lop arms/legs/head off a human oponent with these, and maybe even cut them in half (or hang by a thread) with a hard enough slash. I plan to get one myself after seeing the abuse they put these blades through. Stay away from everything you see at Gun shows (I have NEVER seen a real sword at one). Even the old guys claiming to sell authentic WWII Katanas that look cheaper than even cheapest shop at home network katana set. Obviously "aged" to look hold, but geez, they look so damn cheap. Blades are loose, fake same (ray skin) poor braiding on handle. Its shameless how they try to sell these things. The only "real" WWII Katanas you will find are either in Japan, a museum, or the lucky few vets who has one in thier attic somewhere. My late grandfather was one.

I take back my comments on Paul Chen and the suggestion on Cold Steel. I saw a Warrior Series Katana at the Gunshow on Saturday and held it. It was not very balanced and the blade had no hamon and on second thought, the hamon is really a signature mark of a Katana, fittings were good and everything else, but just didn't feel right to me. So I decided on a Paul Chen Practical Plus, which I received today in the mail. Let me tell you, this blade is absolutely beautiful. I can see the quality and attention to detail they put into their swords, regardless of the 'quality' line.  I think I stole this blade for the meager drop in the bucket I paid for this beauty. Even though it is second to the lowest blade they make (the Practical) it is still nicer than the Cold Steel (IMO) and appears to be noticeably sharper than the CS Katana I saw at the show. It feels very good in the hand and is very well balanced . It gives you the feeling of holding a piece of art. I can only imagine what their higher quality blades are like! Looks like I'll have to balance my budget between guns and Katana's now!

The Paul Chen blades made for cutting do come sharp, as this blade is VERY sharp.

Ninja swords are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants.  I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart.

For the OP

I hate to brake it to you but a Katana or Washizaki is not a good tool for self defense for an untrained person. It takes years of practice to learn how to cut let alone get good enough with one to defend yourself.

If you wan't to get into Japanese swordsmanship fight an instructor in Iaido. I found a website once that had a lot of traditional Japanese martial arts on it. They had some links to authentic Iaido instructors.


If you wan't a tool to defend yourself  take the $1K of sword money get a good handgun and a ass load of ammo and learn to shoot. You can learn to shoot better and quicker than you would ever pick up swordsmanship.

Quoted: www.bbring.com/samauri.jpg

That has SO much avatar potential!

Quoted: There was a section on Mail Call and they said that the WWII bring backs (the last of the real Samuri's) are on average $1,000,000.00

Are you serious?

Quoted: For the OP I hate to brake it to you but a Katana or Washizaki is not a good tool for self defense for an untrained person. It takes years of practice to learn how to cut let alone get good enough with one to defend yourself. If you wan't to get into Japanese swordsmanship fight an instructor in Iaido. I found a website once that had a lot of traditional Japanese martial arts on it. They had some links to authentic Iaido instructors. If you wan't a tool to defend yourself  take the $1K of sword money get a good handgun and a ass load of ammo and learn to shoot. You can learn to shoot better and quicker than you would ever pick up swordsmanship.

No doubt, a pistol is still the way to go for the average person. I would never in my right mind use a Katana on a BG, that would be way too messy.

Where's the video of that nimrod on QVC that whacked a sword on the counter, broke it, and the point jabbed him?

Quoted: Even Japan there are a lot of fakes.

Exactly - a lot of very accurate fakes out there.  Unless you can establish the history and verify it somehow, you have to be VERY careful.  And yeah - the price will be in the many thousands of dollars.


A very good friend of mine in Denmark actually has a very old wakisashi - that his grandfather brought back from Japan in the early 1900s.  The WORST part about that story is that his grandfather had both the katana and the wakisashi, but gave the katana away, because it wouldn't fit in his suitcase!!!!  

My friend eventualyl inherited it - and has since had it authenticated by a museum and an independent expert.  If he had the matching set, it would have been insanely valuable!

Quoted: Quoted: Even Japan there are a lot of fakes. Exactly - a lot of very accurate fakes out there.  Unless you can establish the history and verify it somehow, you have to be VERY careful.  And yeah - the price will be in the many thousands of dollars. A very good friend of mine in Denmark actually has a very old wakisashi - that his grandfather brought back from Japan in the early 1900s.  The WORST part about that story is that his grandfather had both the katana and the wakisashi, but gave the katana away, because it wouldn't fit in his suitcase!!!!   My friend eventualyl inherited it - and has since had it authenticated by a museum and an independent expert.  If he had the matching set, it would have been insanely valuable!

I used to work in a museum and we had a very small Asian art room. And in it we had a small section dedicated to the Samurai of fuedal Japan which included an authentic Katana & Wakizashi set AND the Armor & helmet which belonged to the original owner who once wore and weilded those swords. I can only imagine what they are worth...

We also had a large moving exhibit of treasures from China and some Han swords which belonged to some Han emperor (forgot his name). Very nice sword with red dyed sharksin covered scabbard. Made me drool... its all back in China now though.

Quoted: For the OP I hate to brake it to you but a Katana or Washizaki is not a good tool for self defense for an untrained person. It takes years of practice to learn how to cut let alone get good enough with one to defend yourself. If you wan't to get into Japanese swordsmanship fight an instructor in Iaido. I found a website once that had a lot of traditional Japanese martial arts on it. They had some links to authentic Iaido instructors. If you wan't a tool to defend yourself  take the $1K of sword money get a good handgun and a ass load of ammo and learn to shoot. You can learn to shoot better and quicker than you would ever pick up swordsmanship.

Tom Cruise's character Nathan Algren in the movie Last Samurai, The took only months to become expert at Japanese swordmanship.

I'm no sword buff, but the videos here are pretty cool www.bugei.com

the sword prices arent tho

Quoted: Quoted: For the OP I hate to brake it to you but a Katana or Washizaki is not a good tool for self defense for an untrained person. It takes years of practice to learn how to cut let alone get good enough with one to defend yourself. If you wan't to get into Japanese swordsmanship fight an instructor in Iaido. I found a website once that had a lot of traditional Japanese martial arts on it. They had some links to authentic Iaido instructors. If you wan't a tool to defend yourself  take the $1K of sword money get a good handgun and a ass load of ammo and learn to shoot. You can learn to shoot better and quicker than you would ever pick up swordsmanship. Tom Cruise's character Nathan Algren in the movie Last Samurai, The took only months to become expert at Japanese swordmanship.

Weel - if it was in a movie - it has to be true!  



When I was regularly training kendo, our sensei - who was a rokudan rank - was really excited one day, because he believed that he had FINALLY mastered the most basic strike    I'd estimate that it roughly takes a lifetime to become a true expert at japanese swordplay.  

www.bugei.com(planning on buying a dragonfly from James in the near future)
www.japaneseswordsltd.com(David Huang makes some kickass swords and at really affordable prices too. you CANNOT go wrong.)
www.casiberia.com(but I dont recommend paul chen for actual work. while he says his are up to spec, I don't trust them.)
www.mvforge.com(the L6 I would truly LOVE to own. it's almost nigh indestructible. costly but WORTH it.)


Remember buying a true sword is like buying a car. it's a heavy investment.