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Posted: 1/24/2022 5:56:26 PM EDT
[#1]
Front Sight? Isn't that like Vegas if it was ran by Rob Pincus?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 5:58:43 PM EDT
[#2]
What happened to cause the lawsuit?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 5:59:22 PM EDT
[#3]
Why isn’t that guy in jail?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:03:57 PM EDT
[#4]
I was given one of those certificates for free training one time. I never redeemed it though.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:05:02 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What happened to cause the lawsuit? Short version as I understand it, Piazza wanted to expand the facility. He couldn’t get conventional financing, so he sought “alternative funding” from some people who were willing to loan him the money. He defaulted. As part of the legal mess, he doxxed some people involved in the deal. He riled people up describing their “million dollar house.” He continually asked the members for more money, citing the ongoing “fight.” Meanwhile, his own net worth increased from something like $2M to $12M over about 10 years. That seems an awful lot like diversion of funds for his personal use. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:07:34 PM EDT
[#6]
I was given a free membership by someone high up in the organization several years ago. I have never used it. I guess it will expire right after the first $50.00 membership fee is not paid.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:08:08 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Short version as I understand it, Piazza wanted to expand the facility. He couldn’t get conventional financing, so he sought “alternative funding” from some people who were willing to loan him the money. He defaulted. As part of the legal mess, he doxxed some people involved in the deal. He riled people up describing their “million dollar house.” He continually asked the members for more money, citing the ongoing “fight.” Meanwhile, his own net worth increased from something like $2M to $12M over about 10 years. That seems an awful lot like diversion of funds for his personal use. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: What happened to cause the lawsuit? Short version as I understand it, Piazza wanted to expand the facility. He couldn’t get conventional financing, so he sought “alternative funding” from some people who were willing to loan him the money. He defaulted. As part of the legal mess, he doxxed some people involved in the deal. He riled people up describing their “million dollar house.” He continually asked the members for more money, citing the ongoing “fight.” Meanwhile, his own net worth increased from something like $2M to $12M over about 10 years. That seems an awful lot like diversion of funds for his personal use. Its actually a different fairly recent lawsuit from 4 years ago where the owner claims he was scammed $500,000 in a deal he made with another person, and that person was trying to takeover front sight. Front sight lost the lawsuit and the appeal. It's in the link in the original post. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:09:47 PM EDT
[#8]
Huh...last gun I bought I picked up used from a local who had some work done on it while at Front Sight taking a class a couple years ago.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:18:30 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Front Sight? Isn't that like Vegas if it was ran by Rob Pincus? It's near Vegas but Rob Pincus didn't have anything to do with it. Owner was named Piazza. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:22:07 PM EDT
[#10]
I have a membership that I have never used, but I am not paying a $50 / month fee. What a POS con man.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:22:55 PM EDT
[#11]
Who needs a front sight when RMRs exist?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:24:55 PM EDT
[#12]
Wasn't this place bogus twenty years ago?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:25:57 PM EDT
[#13]
The wife and I did the free submachine gun course and then a 5-day handgun course.
I had a good time at both. We even stayed in the famous stripper room at the wagon wheel in Pahrump. But yeah, no chance I'd ever had bought any property there. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:35:13 PM EDT
[#14]
Wasn't that guy a Scientologist?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:37:55 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was given a free membership by someone high up in the organization several years ago. I have never used it. I guess it will expire right after the first $50.00 membership fee is not paid. I am in this sinking boat. Many years ago I bought a membership (IIRC 'Diamond') for about $100. Never used it. Thus, my cost to them has been $0 all these years, and they kept the $100 (no biggie). They want to charge me $600 PER YEAR to continue the status quo? They can choke on a bag of schlongs. Ignatius, if you're reading this, and the allegations are true, you are a slimy POS and I hope you end up penniless. BTW, the reason I never used the membership is because I know several people who attended FS classes, and by the description they didn't sound very impressive. Not that the training was bad, but better can be had elsewhere. It's a competitive business. Also, for quite a while after I bought the membership Ignatius would leave voice messages weekly. Then, they stopped for the last 5-6 years. Recently, the messages have begun again. Missus Daks tells me "Your friend Ignominious Pizza called you again today." LOL |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:38:37 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:40:10 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wasn't that guy a Scientologist? Yes, that's the allegation. Allegedly, when he got called out for proselytizing, he threatened to sue the accusers to shut them up. Not saying he is one  , but that's the modus operandi of Scientology - sue your opponents into oblivion.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:41:19 PM EDT
[#18]
I went to FS's free 1 day Uzi class when they first opened and bought a $2000 membership, that was over 20 years ago. Back then they only had a tent and 2 bays. Now they have something like 40 shooting bays and 2,000 students a week at peak. It was great for me back then as Las Vegas was my regular vacation spot and the membership was cheap for a lifetime of free training. It's the Walmart of firearms schools - affordable, good enough, and for the masses. The training was okay, just they were using old techniques and they had minimal instructors for each class. The good thing is they trained a lot of new gun owners, many of whom probably would've never taken a firearms course.
Their marketing practices were bad. King of spam emails with multiple every day. They gave away so many memberships for people to sell that my $2,000 membership is now worth $25. Neverending membership offers, worse than the NRA. They cancelled their on range housing that people prepaid for. Got into lawsuits. Lots of mess. I took around eight classes there and sold a few memberships at the beginning so I got my moneys worth and I was satisfied with the training, good enough. But I guess that's how ponzi schemes work. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:44:10 PM EDT
[#19]
That place always seemed sketchy.
I feel bad if they actually did have $500k swindled from them. I wouldn't give them any of my money but that's me. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:44:38 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Front Sight Firearms Training Institute issued an announcement that they are restructuring their business and memberships due to a lawsuit they lost. They are getting rid of non-firearm classes like rappeling, eliminating member benefits, downgrading certificates, removing guns at cost and ammo +20%, ammo must be bought at FS.and implementing a lot of new fees to existing members like... $50 monthly membership maintenance fee, if not paid your membership is terminated along with all benefits $25 daily facility fee when taking a class $1,000 to transfer memberships to a person, previously free. Going to be interesting. Their building contractors filed also filed liens on them for non payment. I'm hoping it's bought out and a new owner takes over. For those not familiar with front sight, they are located in Nevada, a huge facility with like 40 shooting bays. The had shady marketing practices like a ponzi scheme and training was subpar, and they had other legal trouble in the past like canceling their range housing project that people prepaid for. www.FrontSight.com/Restructure FS lawsuit discussion https://www.facebook.com/groups/frontsightlawsuit https://www.ripoffreport.com/report/front-sight-firearms-training/pahrump-nv-s-ignatius-piazza-1515442 Appeal lost - https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/2020/d076183.html OP have you been to front sight? Just went a couple months ago. I wouldn’t call the class I went to subpar. The two day defensive handgun was very good. Tons of californians though. Which isn’t all bad if it gets them off their ass for gun rights. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:49:13 PM EDT
[#21]
I went to a four day defensive pistol class out there a number of years ago. I enjoyed it and learned some things. Well organized and well run.
Most of the people bad talking it probably need the class.  That said all the stuff about money and fraud if true is pretty damn unfortunate because it taints the industry. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:49:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I went to FS's free 1 day Uzi class when they first opened and bought a $2000 membership, that was over 20 years ago. Back then they only had a tent and 2 bays. Now they have something like 40 shooting bays and 2,000 students a week at peak. It was great for me back then as Las Vegas was my regular vacation spot and the membership was cheap for a lifetime of free training. It's the Walmart of firearms schools - affordable, good enough, and for the masses. The training was okay, just they were using old techniques and they had minimal instructors for each class. The good thing is they trained a lot of new gun owners, many of whom probably would've never taken a firearms course. Their marketing practices were bad. King of spam emails with multiple every day. They gave away so many memberships for people to sell that my $2,000 membership is now worth $25. Neverending membership offers, worse than the NRA. They cancelled their on range housing that people prepaid for. Got into lawsuits. Lots of mess. I took a dozen classes there and sold a few memberships at the beginning so I got my moneys worth and I was satisfied with the training, good enough. But I guess that's how ponzi schemes work. Getting people involved in the gun world and becoming trained even at a basic level is a very good thing. Probably the best thing they have accomplished. Can't fault them for that. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:51:16 PM EDT
[#23]
Sounds like they are dicking over all their members in legally actionable way. People generally don't buy "lifetime" memberships just to be hit with the expectation of monthly "maintenance fees" later. I don't see this going over well with members in this scheme at all.
After reading through all that .... wow.... If you invested in the scheme he defaulted on he refunded you in what is essentially "store credit",... and your "lifetime membership" now has a maintenance fee. Lulz what a turd. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:53:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like they are dicking over all their members in legally actionable way. People generally don't buy "lifetime" memberships just to be hit with the expectation of monthly "maintenance fees" later. I don't see this going over well with members in this scheme at all. Americans didn't sign up for their jobs thinking they would be forced to take an injection of dubious efficacy, but here we are. If the $50/mo. fee is true, then a side benefit of losing my membership is not getting voice mails from Ignatius. It might be worth it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 6:56:41 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was given a free membership by someone high up in the organization several years ago. I have never used it. I guess it will expire right after the first $50.00 membership fee is not paid. I won one in a match. Guess that’s never getting used. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:01:00 PM EDT
[#26]
I'm surprised they survived this long.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:15:35 PM EDT
[#27]
Coincidentally……….I was there last weekend with Mrs. Drsalee. 4 day handgun course. I was thoroughly impressed with the course and I learned a helluva lot and the missus became quite comfortable with her 9mm.
I was intrigued with how in the hell the operation ran. We paid practically noting for the course. I hope they work their shit out. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:19:28 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wasn't this place bogus twenty years ago? /media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/hillaryNod-496.gif Kharn |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:19:37 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coincidentally……….I was there last weekend with Mrs. Drsalee. 4 day handgun course. I was thoroughly impressed with the course and I learned a helluva lot and the missus became quite comfortable with her 9mm. I was intrigued with how in the hell the operation ran. We paid practically noting for the course. I hope they work their shit out. Glad to hear it. Positive firearms experiences are a thing to be desired. If you got something good from it, it was good for you. I hope they can continue. Competition is good. Less competition is bad. Losing FS would be a blow to the 2A community. Ditto losing NRA. In their search for perfection, some people just don't grok that. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:23:45 PM EDT
[#30]
Their training classes are too expensive for the average joe.
Disneyland of the training world. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:23:45 PM EDT
[#31]
Big facility that helped train a lot of people over the years. Hopefully it gets reorganized and on track with a new owner. I have not been due to the distance from where I live.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:31:07 PM EDT
[#32]
I'll preface this by saying, I'm a police officer and Piazza is no different that the subjects I contact constantly, who do something stupid but think it's my fault they are in trouble.
Just for that reason alone, I won't be continuing my membership under the new rules. I've attended a few courses on certificates from Ebay, and was gifted a Commander-level membership from one of the people I bought a certificate from. Once per year I would take two weeks off, take two four day courses, and spend time in Vegas in between. The only money Front Sight saw from any of that was the $50 background checks and the $60 sunglasses I bought at the pro shop once, because I stepped on mine. From the beginning I've believed his business model was unsustainable: He's been giving away his means to make money to other people. Imagine if Ford gave people who bought Fords the ability to give away or sell Fords to other people... without even giving Ford a cut... but Ford still had to build the car. The training is OK, a bit outdated but fine for the vast majority of people... better than the training most gun owners get, which is none. It's sad that an easily accessible and inexpensive (if done intelligently) source of training is going to disappear, but he did it to himself. I won't be paying the new fees, and I agree this is likely a scheme to wring as much cash out of members as possible before bankruptcy. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:38:08 PM EDT
[#33]
They used to be located in Bakersfield.
Ran into their group around 98 as they were doing their christmas dinner. Had a administration level friend in Law Enforcement that told me they were weird. Been decades but isn't the head honcho like a Scientology kook? |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:38:43 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Big facility that helped train a lot of people over the years. Hopefully it gets reorganized and on track with a new owner. I have not been due to the distance from where I live. I'll buy that for a dollar... |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:40:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OP have you been to front sight? Just went a couple months ago. I wouldn’t call the class I went to subpar. The two day defensive handgun was very good. Tons of californians though. Which isn’t all bad if it gets them off their ass for gun rights. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Front Sight Firearms Training Institute issued an announcement that they are restructuring their business and memberships due to a lawsuit they lost. They are getting rid of non-firearm classes like rappeling, eliminating member benefits, downgrading certificates, removing guns at cost and ammo +20%, ammo must be bought at FS.and implementing a lot of new fees to existing members like... $50 monthly membership maintenance fee, if not paid your membership is terminated along with all benefits $25 daily facility fee when taking a class $1,000 to transfer memberships to a person, previously free. Going to be interesting. Their building contractors filed also filed liens on them for non payment. I'm hoping it's bought out and a new owner takes over. For those not familiar with front sight, they are located in Nevada, a huge facility with like 40 shooting bays. The had shady marketing practices like a ponzi scheme and training was subpar, and they had other legal trouble in the past like canceling their range housing project that people prepaid for. www.FrontSight.com/Restructure FS lawsuit discussion https://www.facebook.com/groups/frontsightlawsuit https://www.ripoffreport.com/report/front-sight-firearms-training/pahrump-nv-s-ignatius-piazza-1515442 Appeal lost - https://law.justia.com/cases/california/court-of-appeal/2020/d076183.html OP have you been to front sight? Just went a couple months ago. I wouldn’t call the class I went to subpar. The two day defensive handgun was very good. Tons of californians though. Which isn’t all bad if it gets them off their ass for gun rights. I've taken about 8 classes from beginning to advanced there, so I got my moneys worth from my membership. I've been to many different training schools since then so I've seen a broad range of schools from top notch schools like Sig Sauer Academy and ones that suck locally. Front Sight instruction is overall okay for a beginner class, especially cheap with a membership or $10 certificate. Instructors are pleasant, cover all the bases, class is well run, good facilities, and I learned a lot as a beginner. The problems that make it subpar is the low number of instructors, I believe it was 3 for 40 students. Low round count of 200 rounds for a 2 day class, which is very low for a beginner class. Both of those result in a slow class, not an efficient use of my time. Still using the weaver stance for handgun. Advanced shooters are required to take the beginning level classes. And other issues. The advanced classes are better than the beginner classes, and are a good value compared to other schools with better classes but cost a lot more. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:46:54 PM EDT
[#36]
It was always a scammy bullshit rip off of Gunsite.
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:49:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've taken about 8 classes from beginning to advanced there, so I got my moneys worth from my membership. I've been to many different training schools since then so I've seen a broad range of schools from top notch schools like Sig Sauer Academy and ones that suck locally. Front Sight instruction is overall okay for a beginner class, especially cheap with a membership or $10 certificate. Instructors are pleasant, cover all the bases, class is well run, good facilities, and I learned a lot as a beginner. The problems that make it subpar is the low number of instructors, I believe it was 3 for 40 students. Low round count of 200 rounds for a 2 day class, which is very low for a beginner class. Both of those result in a slow class, not an efficient use of my time. Still using the weaver stance for handgun. Advanced shooters are required to take the beginning level classes. And other issues. The advanced classes are better than the beginner classes, and are a good value compared to other schools with better classes but cost a lot more. This was my experience as well but haven't been to FS since 2014-ish or so. Had a good time and all but honestly, Piazza is a shill. Seemed to me he was running a ponzi scheme with the place. I was given a membership and got to do all the courses with it but there are way better courses with way better instructors than FS. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:53:32 PM EDT
[#38]
lol. we didnt con enough people! we need the fish we got to pay more! lol
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Posted: 1/24/2022 7:58:57 PM EDT
[#39]
The FB group says they charge $56/50 rounds of 9mm and you have to buy it there now.
Years ago a couple acquaintances tried to pressure me into buying a membership. Had scam written all over it. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:01:02 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FB group says they charge $56/50 rounds of 9mm and you have to buy it there now. Years ago a couple acquaintances tried to pressure me into buying a membership. Had scam written all over it. Hahahaha $56/box of range 9mm ammo. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:02:14 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The FB group says they charge $56/50 rounds of 9mm and you have to buy it there now. Years ago a couple acquaintances tried to pressure me into buying a membership. Had scam written all over it. Damn that's a ripoff. One thing I liked about FS before was their ammo prices were reasonable. Like $12 for a box of 9mm when it was $10 at Walmart. FS aint going to last much longer. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:06:38 PM EDT
[#42]
My 35 to 40 year old, female smoking hot cousin surprised everyone in the family by taking a multi day pistol class there. She now has hero status. 3 other girls are online to do the same class.
O hope it works out for all. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:11:16 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was given one of those certificates for free training one time. I never redeemed it though. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:13:13 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Short version as I understand it, Piazza wanted to expand the facility. He couldn't get conventional financing, so he sought "alternative funding" from some people who were willing to loan him the money. He defaulted. As part of the legal mess, he doxxed some people involved in the deal. He riled people up describing their "million dollar house." He continually asked the members for more money, citing the ongoing "fight." Meanwhile, his own net worth increased from something like $2M to $12M over about 10 years. That seems an awful lot like diversion of funds for his personal use. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:19:29 PM EDT
[#45]
Been to FS twice. I’ve done rifle, handgun and shotgun. As mentioned, the training is a bit antiquated but overall they run a safe and well put together program.
I liked to go down in the spring to escape winter. I’d take a few classes and camp outside the compound. Last year my goal was to go down and DG the defense handgun class which I did shooting a perfect score (don’t ask me to repeat that). I was hoping to go back this spring and take the next two levels but they are only offered in late May and I’m not sure I want to go down then. Now, with this news I’m seriously doubting I’ll go. No way am I paying $50/mo to maintain a membership. Eight days of camping and shooting for the cost to get there is pretty hard to complain about.  Attached File |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 8:39:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Their training classes are too expensive for the average joe. Disneyland of the training world. You talking about Front Sight? They were the cheapest. Buy a $15 4 day training certificate on ebay or $100 membership to take any course in your lifetime (LOL). The prices listed on the website of $2,000 for a class was just shrill marketing. I didn't think anyone actually paid the $2,000 for a class. I ran across a gun guy recently that proudly showed me his FS handgun completion certificate and said he paid $2,000 years ago for the class. I was like...ummm....errrr......that's great. Front Sight is expensive when it comes to time. You spend 2 days shooting 200 rounds or 4 days shooting 600 rounds and spend a lot of time resting, "coaching", or in the classroom. I guess it's good for beginning kids and seniors that want a slower paced class. This can esult in not getting in enough trigger time needed to pass the skills test too. The other wasted time is advanced shooters being required to take the beginner class first to go on to their advanced classes. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 9:07:18 PM EDT
[#47]
Are his Four Weapons Combat Master Test accomplishments legit?
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Posted: 1/24/2022 9:10:49 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Are his Four Weapons Combat Master Test accomplishments legit? I heard they are legit but IDK for sure. |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 9:11:01 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wasn't that guy a Scientologist? I'm pretty sure he was/is. I worked on a big promotional video for them years ago. In fact, it was over the weekend that Saddam was captured. This was at the early stages of the big plan for condos and creating a shooting community. There were a couple of other crew guys there talking up Scientology, and they knew Piazza. The facility was pretty cool. There were a few .mil guys going through some courses at the time. The training I witnessed was well done, the range masters were legit. I received a cert for a 2-day defensive handgun course from him, (Piazza). |
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Posted: 1/24/2022 9:24:46 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was always a scammy bullshit rip off of Gunsite. 100% |
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