Coconino County Attorney Terry Hance said he cannot let a "lynch-mob mentality" sway his judgment in deciding the case of a hiker who claims self-defense in gunning down an unarmed man in the woods north of Payson.

Hance is being besieged by Arizonans demanding that charges be filed against Harold "Hal" Fish, 57, in the May 11 shooting of Grant Kuenzli.

The killing has sparked more public response in his northern Arizona county than any other case in recent memory, said Hance, who pledged to consider the case on its merits.

Fish admits he shot the 43-year-old Payson man three times in the chest along a Coconino National Forest trail after he said Kuenzli and his three dogs attacked him.

Kuenzli's family, friends and supporters say Fish overreacted to the snarling dogs.

Hance could get the case this week from Coconino County sheriff's investigators. He then must determine whether a reasonable person, under the same circumstances Fish encountered, would believe it necessary to use deadly force in self-defense.

That is no easy task.

"Anybody who shoots an unarmed man three times has a lot of explaining to do," Hance said. "That's just the way it is."

Fish could face charges ranging from aggravated assault to first-degree murder, Hance said.

Fish and his attorney, Reed King, did not return calls seeking comment. In his only public statements last week, Fish told The Arizona Republic that he feared for his life when Kuenzli charged at him with "this look in his eyes" and swinging his fists.

But the retired Phoenix teacher would not say why he shot Kuenzli three times in the chest instead of shooting the dogs. Fish was not hurt by the dogs, which scattered after the shooting. They now are in a Flagstaff dog pound.

The shooting has drawn national attention since Coconino County sheriff's Detective Scott Feagan called it justified.

Feagan's conclusion angered Kuenzli's sister, Linda Altmeter, 46, of Fowler, Ill., who met with the detective.

Altmeter said investigators told her:


• Fish had been carrying a hiking stick that he dropped when a chow-mix dog named Hank charged him.


• He pulled a 10mm semiautomatic pistol out of his backpack and fired a warning shot into the ground near the dog.


• Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third.

Altmeter, a drug and alcohol counselor, said her brother would not have attacked Fish. She imagines that he ran toward Fish shouting at him not to shoot the dogs.

"I just think he got a little trigger-happy," she said. Altmeter is upset that her brother has been portrayed as a "loose cannon, with no friends, no job and homeless."

"He was a loving, sensitive person who wouldn't hurt a flea unless it was on his dog," she said.

The portrait of Kuenzli painted by his sister, mother and friends is of a quiet, peaceful man who had never married and dabbled in various jobs including firefighting and pet photography.


Youngest of 3


Kuenzli was the youngest of three children of Alfred and Corinne Kuenzli, both psychology professors in Alton, Ill. They divorced when Grant was 6 years old.

His mother, now Corinne Hawkins, 75, who lives in Alton, said her son was bright, active in sports and a Boy Scout. She had not seen him in nearly 15 years, but they exchanged letters.

Grant Kuenzli moved to Arizona about the time his father died in 1989 and became a firefighter at the Grand Canyon.

He later moved to the Phoenix area, where he worked about 10 months as a fire inspector for the Gilbert Fire Department, ending in April 1999.

His sister and a former co-worker said Kuenzli also worked at an East Valley hospital as a medical assistant.

Altmeter and John McCauley, a friend in Payson, said Kuenzli was on medical disability. but they did not know any details.

McCauley, 73, who befriended Kuenzli at Payson's dog park, allowed Kuenzli to receive mail at McCauley's Payson home. In recent months, Kuenzli lived out of his small car, with a "Be Nice" bumper sticker on it, in the woods surrounding Payson.

Kuenzli volunteered at the Payson Humane Society and had a Web site listing himself as a pet photographer. His yellow Labrador retriever, Maggie, was a therapy dog that Kuenzli took to senior centers.


Lived in the forest


Forest rangers discovered Kuenzli living illegally in the Tonto National Forest near Payson and asked him to move.

McCauley said Kuenzli moved his camp north of Payson near the Pine Canyon Trail, where he was killed.

Altmeter, who visited the shooting site just off Arizona 87, south of Clints Well, said her family wants her brother's "good name to be restored" and some recognition by the courts that the shooting was unjustified.

"Justice for me would be Harold Fish saying, 'Yeah, I overreacted and I'm sorry for the loss I created,' " she said.

Her family will see what the Coconino County attorney decides, she said, before weighing whether to pursue a wrongful-death lawsuit.

"I profited from Grant's life. I don't want to profit from his death," Altmeter said.

Yep.  The people were really bitching for him to get charged.  It's going to be interesting to see what happens.

Quoted: "Anybody who shoots an unarmed man three times has a lot of explaining to do," Hance said. "That's just the way it is." ... Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third.

Hmm...  Anybody crazy enough to charge me from 8 feet away when I already have a gun drawn is going to get shot.

Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively.

He took 2 shots of 10mm and kept coming.

Cannot understand the problem here.
Man walking with three large dogs begins approaching me in an aggressive manner on a trail in the dessert and I ONLY shoot him 3 times and let the dogs live! Shit, Pita should be all over this guy for showing such compassion to the animals and the police should be remarking on his incredible trigger control.

The "victim" sounds like he was very unstable. He was living in his car out in the woods. The homeless man may have actualy been attacking the shooter.

Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively.

wasn't he shot 3 time in the chest?

worrning 1
chest 1
chest 1
cheat 1
=4 not 3

Quoted: Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively. wasn't he shot 3 time in the chest? worrning 1 chest 1 chest 1 cheat 1 =4 not 3

I think they mean 3 shots at the guy.  I thought 10mm was the most powerful one for charging people.

Quoted: The "victim" sounds like he was very unstable. He was living in his car out in the woods. The homeless man may have actualy been attacking the shooter.

He was also a fervent Howard Dean supporter.





Yeah - he had all his marbles.

Hmm. You live in a car in the woods. You "check out" large aggressive dogs from the pound as though they were library books, and take them for off-leash walks in public places, and go berserk if people try to scare them away when they snarl and menace. I'd have to say you're past due for getting shot. In fact, it's probably best for all concerned that he was killed this way. I suspect the alternative would have been a butterknife between the shoulder blades as he argued heatedly and aggressively with someone else's pancakes in the local diner.

The investigating officer had already ruled the shooting to be justified.

If  Mr. Fish is charged and convicted because of liberal public outcry then Arizona has taken a turn for the worst.

The sister doesn’t want to profit from his death but she’s waiting to pursue a wrongful death lawsuit until she finds out if Mr. Fish will be charged.

In AZ she has no lawsuit unless Mr. Fish is convicted of a crime. It certainly appears that she is trying to stir public support for charges so she can profit from her brothers death.  

3 shots from a 10mm. Guy sounds pretty tuff.

Hah.

Man, I can't believe this topic made it to arfcom. I was stunned about this shooting when I stumbled across the story on azcentral.com.

You see, I use to work with Grant Kuenzli.

"I just think he got a little trigger-happy," she said. Altmeter is upset that her brother has been portrayed as a "loose cannon, with no friends, no job and homeless."

He was a loose cannon, and he had no friends that I knew of when I worked with him. I wasn't aware he was homeless at the time of his death, but it doesn't surprise me. I only worked with Grant for a little under a year, IIRC, but there was just something about this guy that gave me an eerie feeling. It wasn't just me either; it was everyone else that worked out there too. I think Grant's only friend was his dog Maggie.

peaceful man who had never married and dabbled in various jobs including firefighting and pet photography.

Dabbled? From what I understand, it wasn't dabbling; it was because he couldn't keep a job without getting run off or outright fired.


The really strange thing to me is that I saw him a couple of months ago, parked in the parking lot of the Popular Outdoor store in Mesa; the one on Southern that closed recently. He still had that same goofy-ass white hatchback (it was like a late 80's Dodge econo hatcback). He used to bring that thing into work with a kayak strapped to the roof and a mountain bike on the rack in the back. We used to give him a hard time about it, saying if he didn't feel like taking it off his car at the lake he could just pick up car up and set it in the water upside down. His dog was sitting in the front seat, mild as ever.

Ya know what's REALLY funny? He WAS a Howard Dean supporter; he had a Dean bumper sticker on his car.


Seriously, I'll have to agree with the assessment of the posters here: Grant WAS unstable; that was obvious to me when I worked with him.


I'm sorry that Grant didn't manage to find his way in this world, but I'm even more sorry that Harold Fish has to bear the burden for this. The vultures are coming out of the woodwork now. Good luck to you, Mr. Fish; I hope you come out of this unscathed.

Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively.

but who was charging who?

When I first looked at this thread title, I thought it said Hitler kills man with dogs

Quoted: When I first looked at this thread title, I thought it said Hitler kills man with dogs

That would be in the Weekly World News, aot Arfcom.

Whats funny is when this article first hit the news papers it stated that the dogs had bitten other hikers in the past per the Arizona Republic.They also stated that the dog owner would come storming down the trail head with the dogs forcing others out of the way.Kinda hard to say how to react.Maybe if they were on leashes this would never have happened.

Quoted: He was also a fervent Howard Dean supporter.

Reason enough to shoot right there.

Typically, when attacked by two or more unarmed attackers, shooting is justified. This is an unusual case and it could be said that the dogs and Kuenzli were multiple attackers. A case could easily be made that  visious dogs are very well armed! What if Kuenzli had put Fish, a man 14 years his senior, on the ground? What would the dogs have done to him at that point? Sounds to me like this was a good use of the 10mm.

Kuenzli's unstable past is of no consequence unless Fish knew him prior to the shooting.  

Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively.

Who? The shooter or the guy that got shot? Seems it could go either way.

Quoted: Quoted: • Kuenzli was 8 feet away when Fish fired his first shot, and 6 inches away when he fired his third. Would lead me to believe that he was charging agressively. Who? The shooter or the guy that got shot? Seems it could go either way.

Did he fire a warning shot while charging?

Quoted: Fish admits he shot the 43-year-old Payson man three times in the chest along a Coconino National Forest trail after he said Kuenzli and his three dogs attacked him. Fish and his attorney, Reed King, did not return calls seeking comment. In his only public statements last week, Fish told The Arizona Republic that he feared for his life when Kuenzli charged at him with "this look in his eyes" and swinging his fists. Altmeter, a drug and alcohol counselor, said her brother would not have attacked Fish. She imagines that he ran toward Fish shouting at him not to shoot the dogs.

BOOM-BOOM-BOOM  

It wouldn't be correct to say that Kuenzli was two bricks shy of a full load. It would be more accurate to say that he only had two bricks in his entire load!

I think the shooter will walk, and rightfully so.

The people screaming for his blood are the vocal minority. The silent majority supports the shooter.

Hey, the Pizza delivery guy would have shot him 14 times.
A local police officer shot a man( armed with a knife) 7 to 8 times and then had him charged with attempted captial murder when he surived. Officer got mad when the jury reduced the charge and only recommend 15-20 years sentance.  

It will be interesting when the cop who investigated the shooting, and has a already stated it was justified, gets called to the stand by the County Attorney's Office during the trial, to testify against the guy he has already said did nothing wrong.

Jay

Years ago my Father took his brother, neice, and me on a backpacking / fishing trip just north of Yellowstone Park.  We drove to the end of the road, took mules to the end of the trail, and hiked in from there.  Middle of nowhere!

While we were coming out, we meet two dogs on the trail that growled and barked at us.  Three of the four of us were armed.  A guy and his wife finally rode up on horses and called their dogs off.  My Dad told the guy what an inconsiderate a.h. he was and that his dogs had almost been shot.  The guy's wife gathered up their animals and her husband and they left muttering about how unfriendly we were.

I train my dogs to walk behind me on the trail and when I see someone else, I put them on leash and move off the trail.  It'll be a cold day before I allow someone else's dog to bite me or mine.  In the above example, it would have been a very serious situation if one of those dogs had bitten us while we were carrying 60 pound packs and caused us a leg wound.

From what I get out of this thread, I wish the shooter well.

Someone owes me a dollar.

Who was it that took that bet with me?

Hiker in trail shooting charged with murder


Peter Corbett
The Arizona Republic
Jun. 5, 2004 12:00 AM


Coconino County Attorney Terry Hance filed a second-degree murder charge Friday against a Phoenix man who claimed self-defense in a shooting last month in the woods north of Payson.

Harold Fish, 57, a retired Spanish teacher, shot 43-year-old Grant Kuenzli three times in the chest with a 10mm semiautomatic pistol on May 11.

Fish told Coconino County sheriff's investigators that he felt threatened when Kuenzli's three dogs and then Kuenzli charged at him along Pine Canyon Trail in the Coconino National Forest.

Detective Scott Feagan said last month that the evidence would show that Fish acted in self-defense.

But after reviewing the evidence, Hance decided to file a second-degree murder charge. The county attorney said he could not talk about the evidence.

"The case will speak for itself," Hance said.

Fish, who is not in custody, will face a preliminary hearing as early as next week, Hance said, adding that the case could go to a grand jury.

Fish's attorney, Mel McDonald, a former U.S. attorney, said he is disappointed that Hance filed charges despite Feagan's conclusion that Fish acted in self-defense.

"There are laws on the books against this kind of assault . . . in a remote area by a man and his vicious dogs," McDonald said. "You're entitled to protect yourself."

Kuenzli's death sparked outrage among Arizonans who could not understand why an unarmed man would be shot even if his unleashed dogs charged at Fish.

Fish, who was completing a hike just before sundown, was not hurt by the dogs: a chow mix, shepherd mix and a yellow Labrador retriever. The dogs are being held in the Flagstaff dog pound.

Kuenzli's sister, Linda Altmeter, 46, of Fowler, Ill., said the charges are appropriate.

"I'm gratified to know that my brother's life was recognized and was worth a charge against the person who stole it," she said. "I don't think (Fish) had very much remorse."

If convicted of second-degree murder, Fish could face a sentence of 10 to 22 years in prison.

In his only public statement, Fish said last month that he had only seconds to react when the dogs and then Kuenzli charged down a hill toward him.

"He was on top of me. I couldn't get away," Fish said. "He had this look in his eyes."

Fish would not say if Kuenzli verbally threatened him, or explain why he shot Kuenzli and not the chow-mix dog that initially charged at him.

Kuenzli, a former firefighter, was living out of his car in the national forest near Payson. His sister said he was on medical disability, but she did not know why.

Kuenzli was a volunteer with the Payson Humane Society and had a Web site promoting himself as a pet photographer. Two of the dogs with him at the time of the shooting were from the Humane Society shelter.

Friends in Payson said Kuenzli was a non-violent man who loved animals and chose to live in the woods. They said they do not believe he would have charged at Fish.

In a brief phone interview May 24 with The Arizona Republic, Fish said he shot Kuenzli to "avoid death or serious injury."

Fish, the father of seven children, retired a year ago from Tolleson High School.

"I do feel a sense of duty to account for my action," Fish said. "I'm not afraid to do that."

The real OutRage here is that (antigun) public outcry has affected the decision making process to bring charges against a man when there should be none.

No doubt Mr. Hance has political admissions are behind these charges of second degree murder after the investigating officer had found the shooting to be justified.

Napalm Mr. Fish’s liberty is hanging in the balances and he may need people like you to help establish the character of his dead attacker.

Wow, when the first thread came up I thought the shooting wasn't justified.  However the three shots within eight feet, and the fact that he was a criminal and most likely unstable speakes volumes.  I guess I was way wrong on this one.  It is a shame, for one, that the media didn't insert necessary details in the origional article and it is a shame that this trial is now political.  What ever happened to the rule of law, not the mob?

... The decision from the county attorney to charge the shooter is especially disturbing. This State has had some horrible incidents in the past few years where crazies were randomly killing campers sleeping in their tents and trucks.

... Now comes along a guy willing and able to defend himself against remote area attacks and he gets nailed, and will be forced to spend big money to prove justification.

... Oh well, there's some good news out there, I see this morning OJ Simpson told Katie Couric in an interview last night that he didn't kill Nicole. Sure glad he cleared that up, I was always somewhat suspicious of his verdict.

Quoted: I have (and have had) Chows and feel I understand them a bit.  Chows will move forward (but not attack) in an agressive manner if they believe their owner is threatened but if their owner begins to give ground the Chows will also give ground while keeping themselves between their owner and the perceived threat. Fish admits he shot the 43-year-old Payson man three times in the chest along a Coconino National Forest trail after he said Kuenzli and his three dogs attacked him. Kuenzli's family, friends and supporters say Fish overreacted to the snarling dogs. If attacked by the dogs as the Fish claims, there (obviously) should be bite marks.  I'm betting no bite marks and that the Fish overreacted to the situation. 5sub

I don't think it is reasonable to expect Mr. Fish to be an expert on the typical bahavior of the type of dog that threatened him.  It is a tragic story, but from what I have read, the shooting of Mr. Kuenzli was justified.

It is easy for people to criticize Mr. Fish when they are safe and secure.  Let them try being all alone and having 3 reasonably large animals threaten you.  Then, AFTER they fire a warning shot (and are still holding the pistol) have an enraged, screaming person close rapidly on them.  I would be willing to bet that their perspective would change dramatically.

Quoted: If attacked by the dogs as the Fish claims, there (obviously) should be bite marks.  I'm betting no bite marks and that the Fish overreacted to the situation. 5sub

So, in your expert opinion, the man had no cause to believe that he was being attacked unles the attack was successful? The proper course is to await mauling, and then take whatever defensive action is called for? If attacked by dogs who were scared off by the warning shot before sinking their teeth into him there wouldn't be any bite marks, now would there? Sheesh!

FYI, one or all of the dogs was not with its owner, as the car-dwelling freak in question had "borrowed" them from the pound so he could let them run loose and snarl at strangers in a public place, and then he would be entitled to charge, rant and scream in righteous indignation if anyone responded to the dogs by doing anything other than freezing in place.

1.  Hiker sees dogs rapidly closing and fires shot into ground, dogs disperse and/or leave.
2.  Unarmed dog guy approaches hiker who has gun in hand.
3.  The text says 'dog guy' was 8 feet away when shot first and 6 inches on third shot.

So let me get this straight.  You would stand there with a gun in your hand and let a guy take it from you and make you eat it?  Are you going to toss the gun and duke it out?  How close should I let the assailant get before I fire?  Leave the dogs out of your answer because the dogs scattered after the first shot.  

The mistake the shooter made was talking to anybody without a lawyer.  

I've heard nothing that makes this shooting sound justifiable. I'll bet his warning shot was fired at Kuenzli and missed.

Still curious why it wasn't given to the Grand Jury. Would have taken pressure off the county attorney's office.

Sounds completely justifiable to me.

But this highlights something I (and others) have said over and over.

If you use a firearm in self defense, know that, without a doubt, you are going to spend thousands of dollars in court.  Even if you are totally justified.

Sad but true.

Here's his website:

gkuenzli.tripod.com/

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If attacked by the dogs as the Fish claims, there (obviously) should be bite marks.  I'm betting no bite marks and that the Fish overreacted to the situation. 5sub So, in your expert opinion, the man had no cause to believe that he was being attacked unles the attack was successful? The proper course is to await mauling, and then take whatever defensive action is called for? If attacked by dogs who were scared off by the warning shot before sinking their teeth into him there wouldn't be any bite marks, now would there? Sheesh! FYI, one or all of the dogs was not with its owner, as the car-dwelling freak in question had "borrowed" them from the pound so he could let them run loose and snarl at strangers in a public place, and then he would be entitled to charge, rant and scream in righteous indignation if anyone responded to the dogs by doing anything other than freezing in place. Dipshit, what bothers me is we have an unmarked man that shot an unarmed man three times. 5sub

Having declared the limits your intellectual wattage with your opening word, you proceed to declare the limits of your intellectual courage by dodging and dissimulating.

If what bothered you is the fact that Fish shot an unarmed man, why did you claim that "If attacked by the dogs as the Fish claims, there (obviously) should be bite marks.  I'm betting no bite marks and that the Fish overreacted to the situation."

Explain (1) why you think, as suggested in your initial post, that  bite marks are necessary evidence of a dog attack; (2) why the fact that the dogs were smart enough to flee from the gunshot but a vagabond, stray-dog-borrowing freak was not is so confusing to you.

It is obvious from the account given by the only witness capable of speech (unless your odd near-anthropomorphizing chow-fetish makes you think one of the dogs has a story to tell) that Fish fired a warning shot which put an end to the dogs' threatening behavior, but touched off the screwball's fuse and led to second attack, man-on-man this time, and culminated in the shooting of the fellow whose home address was a license plate number. It's really not complicated.

Quoted: Whats funny is when this article first hit the news papers it stated that the dogs had bitten other hikers in the past per the Arizona Republic.They also stated that the dog owner would come storming down the trail head with the dogs forcing others out of the way.Kinda hard to say how to react.Maybe if they were on leashes this would never have happened.

If this is true, then good shoot.  Pity he didn't wipe out the ^@#$%@#$ dogs too.  I've raised dogs all my life but dogs that snarl at other people, on PUBLIC land when they're not trespassing, need to be shot.

You guys are missing the most important thing we need to know...what kind of 10mm did the shooter use?  Glock29? Glock 20? Colt Delta Elite? EAA Witness? S&W 1076?  I must know!