How many times have we heard people on this board and elsewhere spewing this exact load of intellectual juvenalia, this artifact of the separation of self during which we express our independence from Mommy and Daddy by adopting hairstyles they dislike, this half-baked, half-witted, downy-cheeked swipe at Judeo-Christian civilization? Do you think that maybe, just maybe, the videotape of those animals sawing a noncombatant's head off with a knife while shouting "Allahu Ackbar!" over and over to the accompaniment of the victim's gurgling and screaming will put an end to this absurd bit of fantasy?

Can you even imagine a similar scenario with a Muslim victim and murderers shouting sincerely "Shma Yisrael..." or "Jesus loves you" ? Can you?

Well, I guess there's one less way for people to make fools of themselves on the internet.

Quoted: Well, I guess there's one less way for people to make fools of themselves on the internet.

Don't count on it.

Please do not expect the criminally hateful to experience an epiphany because of anything they see or do.  All "little people" have to have at least one huge enemy to call their own.

The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word.

I hear you, man.

Dang FLAL1A, your posts have been excellent the last couple of days and now this!

This won't even bait the hardcores.

What happened?

Tj

Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word.

Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

LOL... trying to call me out are you?

Living under tyranny is worse than death according to Patrick Henry.

Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

Man!  You must be OLD.

I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did.

Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity?

The Crusades, man, that was then, this is now. We're talking now, today. Sure, they did some bad things 1000 years ago, heck, most civilizations did some very crappy things back in the day. I just can't see any Christian, true Christian sawing off a guys head in this day and age. Also, I'm starting to think that the Crusaders had some very good reasons for what they did. I'd be willing to bet that if the truth be known they were provoked same as we're being provoked today.  

I believe "Neca ecos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet." (Kill them all.  God will know his own.") was uttered by a Catholic during the Albigensian Crusades - against "heretic" Christians, not Muslims.

Hundreds slaughtered in religious fighting

Thursday, May 6, 2004 Posted: 12:39 PM EDT (1639 GMT)

LAGOS, Nigeria (Reuters) -- A Nigerian Christian leader said on Thursday the killing of hundreds of Muslims by Christian militia in the town of Yelwa on Sunday was the product of "a state of war" between the two faiths in Africa's most populous nation.

The conflict between the Christian Tarok and the Muslim Fulani is patently about their competing claims over the fertile farmlands of Plateau state in central Nigeria, but religious leaders and academics said it fed an already strong trend of religious hatred in the impoverished oil exporting country.

"What we have is a state of war," said Sam Kujiyat, head of the Christian Association of Nigeria in the northern city of Kaduna.

The West African country is a battleground for the world's two main religions, which share roughly equally its population of 130 million people.

Religious violence has killed at least 5,000 people since 2000, when 12 northern states predominantly inhabited by Muslims established Islamic Sharia law.

On Sunday, hundreds of Christian Tarok militia invaded the town of Yelwa, sealed off roads to town with felled trees, and killed hundreds of Fulani with machine guns and machetes.

A Muslim community leader said 630 bodies had been buried in the town. Abdullahi D. Abdullahi showed a Reuters correspondent a foul-smelling area of freshly turned earth where he said the bodies had been buried.

The attack followed the killing of almost 100 Christians in Yelwa in February, including 48 massacred in a church, and brought the total death toll in three months of fighting in the region to at least 1,000.

"In Yelwa many Christians were slaughtered and the churches there were burned down by Muslims. Do we defend ourselves or allow our homes to be taken and people killed?" said Kujiyat.

Fomenting strife

Abubakar Siddique Muhammed, head of political science at Nigeria's Ahmadu Bello University, said the Plateau conflict played dangerously into the hands of those fomenting religious strife.

"Various leaders have made statements to the effect that Muslims have no place in the area (around Yelwa). If you say a particular tribe does not belong there, you are preparing for genocide or massacre," Muhammed told Reuters.

"The state must take action because if it doesn't, it could throw the whole country into chaos," he added.

Muslims dominate the north of Nigeria and Christians the south, although significant minorities exist in both regions.

In ethnically diverse Plateau state, in the centre of the country, the two religions had been cohabiting peacefully for generations until ethnic and religious fighting tore apart the state capital Jos in 2001.

Divisions have only deepened since then. Tens of thousands of people have been displaced and now villages that were once home to mixed populations are becoming enclaves of one ethnic group or the other.

Justice Abdulkadir Orire, a top Muslim leader, said he suspected powerful retired military figures were behind the escalating violence and could be trying to create a separate, Christian power base for themselves in the ethnically diverse region known as the Middle Belt.

"Some people have been trying to separate the North from the Middle Belt and create a separate zone for themselves. That would create chaos across all of Nigeria," said Orire, who is Secretary-General of Jama'atu Nasril Islam.

He has called for a judicial enquiry into the killings to expose the sponsors of the attack.

Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

Yes!

I also call for immediate airstrikes against the Spanish Inquisition.

Quoted: Dang FLAL1A, your posts have been excellent the last couple of days and now this! This won't even bait the hardcores. What happened? Tj

TJ,

Read it again.  I think he is poking fun at those who would say what his title line does.  That is, he thinks it's absurd to say the Christian Right is as dangerous as the Muslim Fundadmentalists.

Ok Ben, ya' got me on that one, BUT those are Africans, we all know that their crazy. I'm thinking more like a main stream, American Christian. I really can't see a pastor from a chruch down the road cutting off a guys head in the name of Christ. He may flood the guys mail with Bible Tracks or bug him by stopping by all the time but come on, do you really think an American Christian would cut off a head.

I pulled this off one of the history sites:



So what is the truth about the Crusades? Scholars are still working some of that out. But much can already be said with certainty. For starters, the Crusades to the East were in every way defensive wars. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression—an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.

Christians in the eleventh century were not paranoid fanatics. Muslims really were gunning for them. While Muslims can be peaceful, Islam was born in war and grew the same way. From the time of Mohammed, the means of Muslim expansion was always the sword. Muslim thought divides the world into two spheres, the Abode of Islam and the Abode of War. Christianity—and for that matter any other non-Muslim religion—has no abode. Christians and Jews can be tolerated within a Muslim state under Muslim rule. But, in traditional Islam, Christian and Jewish states must be destroyed and their lands conquered. When Mohammed was waging war against Mecca in the seventh century, Christianity was the dominant religion of power and wealth. As the faith of the Roman Empire, it spanned the entire Mediterranean, including the Middle East, where it was born. The Christian world, therefore, was a prime target for the earliest caliphs, and it would remain so for Muslim leaders for the next thousand years.

With enormous energy, the warriors of Islam struck out against the Christians shortly after Mohammed’s death. They were extremely successful. Palestine, Syria, and Egypt—once the most heavily Christian areas in the world—quickly succumbed. By the eighth century, Muslim armies had conquered all of Christian North Africa and Spain. In the eleventh century, the Seljuk Turks conquered Asia Minor (modern Turkey), which had been Christian since the time of St. Paul. The old Roman Empire, known to modern historians as the Byzantine Empire, was reduced to little more than Greece. In desperation, the emperor in Constantinople sent word to the Christians of western Europe asking them to aid their brothers and sisters in the East.

That is what gave birth to the Crusades. They were not the brainchild of an ambitious pope or rapacious knights but a response to more than four centuries of conquests in which Muslims had already captured two-thirds of the old Christian world. At some point, Christianity as a faith and a culture had to defend itself or be subsumed by Islam. The Crusades were that defense.

Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

No flame here, but it didn't happen on my watch. -pony

Quoted: Dang FLAL1A, your posts have been excellent the last couple of days and now this! This won't even bait the hardcores. What happened? Tj

I don't follow you regarding the quality of the post. I can tell you that this has been on my mind since yesterday.

When I was in Jerusalem, every day I heard the call to prayer over and over. A rather lovely chant, the beginning of which (maybe all of which) is "Allahu Ackbar," repeated over and over. Listening to the soundtrack of that video, with the call to prayer playing in my inner ear, was truly chilling. These guys were actually and sincerely shouting "God is Great" while holding down an unarmed man in order to kill him slowly, with unnecessary suffering. "God is Great! God is Great! God is Great!"

They weren't mocking Islam. They weren't Christians or atheists mocking a Muslim victim. They believe, based on a culture and scripture which is the supposed equal of all others, that they glorified their Maker by what they did. And in point of fact, they were only doing in particularly public and gruesome way the same thing that uncounted millions of their coreligionists and clerics do, approve or tolerate: murdering an unarmed noncombatant in the name of their faith. Suicide bombers in Israel frequently shout "Allahu Ackbar" before detonating their bombs.

I can see a bunch of Baptists beating the crap out of someone - or even killing him - while saying "That's for burning down our church!" ot "That's for killing our pastor!" but I can't see them shouting "Glory to God" while doing it.

It is a fact that more than one person has posted on this website a statement approximating "The Christian Right is Just as Dangerous as The Islamicists." The video in question demonstrates once and for all what a fatuous idea that is.  

Quoted: Ok Ben, ya' got me on that one, BUT those are Africans, we all know that their crazy. I'm thinking more like a main stream, American Christian. I really can't see a pastor from a chruch down the road cutting off a guys head in the name of Christ. He may flood the guys mail with Bible Tracks or bug him by stopping by all the time but come on, do you really think an American Christian would cut off a head.

Sorry man. I was just responding to the challenge.

You never know what any zealot from any faith is capable of doing until they are sufficiently challenged in an environment where they believe they can get away with it.

It's not about religion, it's about power in the name of religion.

I can see a bunch of Baptists beating the crap out of someone - or even killing him - while saying "That's for burning down our church!" ot "That's for killing our pastor!" but I can't see them shouting "Glory to God" while doing it. It is a fact that more than one person has posted on this website a statement approximating "The Christian Right is Just as Dangerous as The Islamicists." The video in question demonstrates once and for all what a fatuous idea that is.

.

Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity?

I'm not defending FLAL1A's opinion at all, nor do I agree  with him. I do know that the crusades are heavy taught in Islamic schools. They of coarse are teaching  their version and I'm sure its not too friendly to Christians. I was just pointing out that Christan crimes during the crusades are probably better remembered in the Islamic world becuase it is so heavy stressed.

Diocese invokes First Amendment in bid to protect records

By Patrick Waldron Daily Herald Staff Writer
Posted 5/7/2004
Lawyers for the Catholic church's Rockford Diocese said Thursday that First Amendment-guaranteed religious freedom allows the church to protect records of internal investigations.

The argument made before the state's 2nd District Appellate Court in Elgin involves the diocese's attempt to block private records from being viewed by Kane County prosecutors in the sexual abuse case involving a Geneva girl against former Geneva priest Mark Campobello.

To release such documents puts religious activities under public scrutiny in violation of the Constitution, said Joshua Vincent, an attorney representing the diocese.

Any records delving into abuse allegations were created and ordered by local bishops under church guidelines created by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops seeking to end clergy sexual abuse.

"The church is trying to do something positive and beneficial to address this problem" Vincent said before the court, "and the state is trying to use it against them."

Kris Karlin, the appellate prosecutor arguing the case, said religious freedom exemptions cannot apply in a circumstance where law enforcement officials are seeking information about an alleged crime.

"Such abuse by a Catholic priest is not a religious process," she said. "They can't hide behind confidentially of canon law."

Lawyers and the panel of three appellate justices said the church privacy issue, as it relates to criminal investigations, is a largely unexplored legal area in Illinois and even around the nation.

Across the country, and just this month in Illinois, the rights of church dioceses to keep private internal records have been argued in lower courts. Over the years, higher courts have made rulings with regard to civil lawsuits, but precedents for future dealings in criminal cases could be largely shaped by the 2nd District's ruling.

In this case, the Kane County state's attorney's office filed a request with the diocese last year for Campobello's personnel file and transfer records. The request also asked for records involving any internal church investigations regarding the abuse allegations, secret records kept by the church and any records from St. Luke Institute in Maryland, a facility that treats priests accused of sexual misconduct.

The diocese fought those requests saying state and church law prevent church officials from releasing certain information. Diocesan lawyers said any possible records connected to a patient at St. Luke were protected by medical privacy laws, and internal church documents were protected by church law and the Constitution.

Kane County Judge Timothy Sheldon ordered the diocese to hand over the material but church officials refused. On May 22, 2003, Sheldon found the diocese to be in contempt of court. The following month the diocese appealed that court-order to the 2nd District.

All of it stems from the 2002 arrest of Campobello, a former priest at St. Peter Catholic Church in Geneva and former teacher at Aurora Central Catholic High School.

In separate criminal cases, Campobello, 39, faces multiple counts of sexual abuse and sexual assault. He is accused of abusing a 14-year-old Geneva girl in 1999 and a 16-year-old Aurora girl between November 1999 and March 2000.

During Thursday's oral arguments the appellate justices centered most of their questions around the procedures for church investigations. The documents in question, if they exist, would come from the Rockford bishop acting as a misconduct officer and the diocese's intervention committee, a 16-member panel that would investigate abuse allegations.

Vincent said the diocese is committed to the truth but won't wave its constitutional rights to religious freedom. Protecting such rights and the internal systems set up under those freedoms are key to the outcome of this case, he said.

"I think society has a lot at stake here," Vincent said. "Religious freedoms are important to society."

As usual, the appellate court took the oral arguments under advisement and will issue its ruling at a later time. No timeline was given.

Kane County prosecutors intend to move forward with their criminal case against Campobello with or without the church documents.

"I can't wait," said Assistant State's Attorney Jody Gleason, outside the appellate court Thursday. "This could be months and months."

Campobello is scheduled to go to trial May 24 on the charges involving the Geneva girl. A trial date for the Aurora case has not been set.

Ben, you have to admit that traditionally Christians have been more mytars then overthrowers of others. 99.9% of the time the Christian will die for their faith at the hands of their enemies rather then shead blood. The Crusades are an exception and I don't count things done by the Catholic church in the same vein as things done by Christians. There have been may Popes that have been evil and ambitious and done all manner of things in the name of God, I'm not talking about them. I'm talking about Pat Roberson, Jerry Falwell types, I really can't see them killing for Christ but I can see them dying for him. Is this making sence?

Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity?

Do you consider last week current enough? No mention of beheadings, but 200 Muslims are dead and 120 missing after a Christian militia saw fit to lay waste to a muslim a village with machetes, spears and machine guns.

www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/07/1083911409579.html

You want to know what my problem is with fundamentalists?

I was raised in a strict pentecostal church. This wasn't some tiny backwoods church either, it was a large group of churches across the nation with millions of dollars in assets.

The things I witnessed as a kid growing up... suffice it to say that I should write a book.

As I got older, I decided to search for the 'truth'. I found that most denominations are filled with the same kinds of stories.

The net result of this was a skeptical attitude towards anyone coming at me reeking of  'Christian' values. I learned that it was mostly about control.

I have no interest in such a thing and will fight to the death to defend myself against extremists of any flavor.... including those who serve up a weekly helping of the Body of Christ.

To answer directly, yes. From the things that I have witnessed personally, I believe that 'Christians' are as equally capable of such barbarism as what we witnessed from Islam this week.

Eric Robert Rudolph
Tim McVey
James Kopp
Buford O. Ferrel Jr.

Its true that they are far less in number right now than the Islamicists but they do exist, and have been more numerous in the past.

Any religion can become like the Islamicists.  So far men like the above are rare and have not able to gather recrutes. But they still have to be watched. And the more we appear to struggle against the Islamicists the more Fundimentalist Christians will think that terrorism is a way to get media attention and get their message across.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Man!  You must be OLD. I wasn't even born during the Crusades.  Therefore, I am not responsible for a thing they did. Can you name any current beheadings in the name of Christianity? Do you consider last week current enough? No mention of beheadings, but 200 Muslims are dead and 120 missing after a Christian militia saw fit to lay waste to a muslim a village with machetes, spears and machine guns. www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/05/07/1083911409579.html

Okay, RRW, I'll cover this one more time.

The question under consideration is, " (Is) The Christian Right is Just as Dangerous as The Islamicists."

Notice the question.  It is about the "Chjristian Right".  That is commonly defined as Christian fundementalists in America.  Not some group of nuts in some third world hell-hole.

And American "Christian Right" Fundementalists haven't chopped anyone's heads off.  Nor are we about to do so.

You might disagree with us and our faith.  That is surely your right.

But it is silly to say that we are "Just as Dangerous as The Islamicists".  We are not.  We are not murdering terrorists.

And anyone that says that we are is just being silly.

Why don't you peruse this list of so called 'Christian' organizations and read up on the heinous acts they have perpetrated against fellow American's in the Name of Christ.

Extremists of any flavor are dangerous.

I checked the list and sure enough, I was right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, while being a pain in the ass at times, have never cut anyones head off.

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

Go read your fucking history.  Some clown always brings this up and they don't have a fucking clue.

THEY didn't do a damn thing except in response to what the Muslims started.   Besides, WE didn't do a fucking thing because WE weren't born yet.

Ancient fucking history, irrelevant to current events.

I am amazed at the number of Islam defenders on this board.

Personally, I am not defending fundamentalist of any faith, but it sure seems that at just about every trouble spot in the world right now, Muslims are involved.

I'm not defending Islam.

Extremism in general sucks.

No Pat Robertson never cut anyone's head off.

Jim Jones cooked up a couple hundreds gallons of cyanide-laced grape kool ade.... in the Name of Christ.

And American "Christian Right" Fundementalists haven't chopped anyone's heads off. Nor are we about to do so.

No, but one did blow up the day care center in the Murrow Federal Building in OKC (along with the rest of the building) and another shot a bunch of Jewish preschoolers in Los Angeles.

You cannot say Christian Fundimentalists are not a danger to this country, they are just less of a danger right now than Islamic terror as right now there are a lot fewer of them. But this could change if they are not watched, like we SHOULD have been watching Islamic terror groups.

Quoted: I'm not defending Islam. Extremism in general sucks. No Pat Robertson never cut anyone's head off. Jim Jones cooked up a couple hundreds gallons of cyanide-laced grape kool ade.... in the Name of Christ.

LOL, that wasn't very "Christian" of Mr. Jones, now was it.

Quoted: I'm not defending Islam. Extremism in general sucks. No Pat Robertson never cut anyone's head off. Jim Jones cooked up a couple hundreds gallons of cyanide-laced grape kool ade.... in the Name of Christ.

You may want to do some research on the "evolution" of the Theology of the Peoples' Temple before you make categorical pronouncements about the name in which Jones acted.

Quoted: I'm not defending Islam. Extremism in general sucks. No Pat Robertson never cut anyone's head off. Jim Jones cooked up a couple hundreds gallons of cyanide-laced grape kool ade.... in the Name of Christ.

Not to mention lynchings and castrations done by "christian" members of the kkk.

I think what I'm trying to get at is, at the core of the Christian belief is "Love", at the core of the muslim belief is "War".  I'm not saying that a misguided person that "thinks" he's a Christian can't do and hasn't done some very terrible things. A TRUE Christian would never do harm to another unless it was to save his life or the life of an inocent third party. On the other hand a muslim Will kill all infidels that he can because that is the code that he lives by, it's a core belief of islam. Do you see where I'm coming from now Ben?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Go read your fucking history.  Some clown always brings this up and they don't have a fucking clue. THEY didn't do a damn thing except in response to what the Muslims started.   Besides, WE didn't do a fucking thing because WE weren't born yet. Ancient fucking history, irrelevant to current events. I am amazed at the number of Islam defenders on this board. Personally, I am not defending fundamentalist of any faith, but it sure seems that at just about every trouble spot in the world right now, Muslims are involved.

Looks like we have found another subject that LARRYG knows nothing about and uses to start shit with me. Isn't the courage some people find in a internet forums anoymity funny?

Quoted: I checked the list and sure enough, I was right. Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell, while being a pain in the ass at times, have never cut anyones head off.

Maybe not but I certainly won't forget Jerry's calling AIDs "God's Revenge to the Unholy."

What an idiot I thought at the time, like a virus has a mind and is moral.  With his help, the disease was put on a back burner at a time when it could have been stopped in this country.  Now we have organizations to help the children with AIDs.   DUH?

Tj

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion. Go read your fucking history.  Some clown always brings this up and they don't have a fucking clue. THEY didn't do a damn thing except in response to what the Muslims started.   Besides, WE didn't do a fucking thing because WE weren't born yet. Ancient fucking history, irrelevant to current events. I am amazed at the number of Islam defenders on this board. Personally, I am not defending fundamentalist of any faith, but it sure seems that at just about every trouble spot in the world right now, Muslims are involved. Looks like we have found another subject that LARRYG knows nothing about and uses to start shit with me. Isn't the courage some people find in a internet forums anoymity funny?

Cute.  You are clueless and you say I know nothing.  Right.  You have said that several times and the facts have yet to bear you out.

Little ball-less jerk questioning someone's courage.  Again, right.  If I ever meet you, I will say the same thing.

Quoted: Quoted: The Christian may bug you to death, even bore you to death but I don't think we'll ever see them saw someones head off. That is one of the main differences between islam and Christianity. Islam preches conversion by the sword, Christianity preches conversion by the word. Have you ever heard of the cruasades?  We as Christans did some terrible things in the name of our religion.

 
And  yet it was still not enough!

Honestly this is such an asinine argument.  Sure there have been people who claim to be Christians who have done horrible things in this world.  Timothy McViegh a member of the Christian right?  What crack are you smoking?

No matter, the real argument is whether the teachings of Jesus Christ condone such acts which they don't or whether the teachings of Mohammad do teach them which they do.  A true follower of Jesus Christ would not be involved in barbarisms such as we have seen.  On the other hand a follower of Islam simply has to look at the life of Mohammad to see the example of brutality and intolorance he led as inspiration for their own actions.